I'm both as well. I started as a designer who wanted more control over my websites.
<!----------------//------ andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --------------//---------> -----Original Message----- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 3:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Generally web developers are not designers and vice versa, it's usually two separate jobs. Of course I'm not saying that is a rule set in stone, as some people are both, myself included. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Rinehart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 14:47 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions On 4/7/06, Snake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate > your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work, as > only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be > able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. > > Russ It's Saturday so I'm giving my diplomacy a day off - with the exception of the last phrase, that's a really piss poor statement. I do like the last part though - who the hell wants an "average web developer" working on their job? I want the best people I can find working with me. And if you look around, the best CF folks have gravitated towards a framework (even Simon, with his anti-framework frame...errr..methodology ;) ). There's probably a reason for this: Responsible, mature developers understand that different toolsets are appropriate for different types of work. If you're going to back a simple one-page contact form with Model-Glue (or Mach-II), it's rather like cutting butter with a chainsaw - it might be kind of fun, but messy in the end. Those of us who have moved forward and gone past the simple CRUD list / detail view apps of 1999 require tools that properly separate business logic from presentation, meaning that you could never simply "open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it" - unless you wanted to have to duplicate the same logic across every other page / service / API / interface that needed to utilize it. Model-Glue, Mach-II, and MVC Fusebox are such tools. > We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. > It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes > than it would have done if it was using my framework. > > The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. > I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another > developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. That's a piss-poor example (sorry to use the phrase again, but it's just so on-target for this thread). If I wrote a book in French and than gave it to an English-only proofreader, it's likely that the result would be bad. That's pretty much what you did, taking an MG/OO app and giving it to another developer. If it's just a simple test site, zip it up and send it over to me, I'd be happy to take a look/make pointers. > A very simple framework does the same job as as complex one like > model-glue Model-Glue is a *very* simple framework. It even has some built-in limitations where I chose simplicity over power. Where people goof is when they try to make things more complex than they need to be. Heck, you ever seen Struts? Now there's a world of pain... ....... So, are frameworks like MG/M2/FB necessary for a simple web app? No, of course not. Is writing simple web apps going to be enough to keep developers competitive and employed as we move into a world where the same app must be web, mobile, RIA/Flex/Ajax, and provide a headless API? Probably not. Frameworks like MG/M2/FB are simply tools good developers - those members of the development community who do work that's moved past writing the Nth iteration of a web-based contact manager - will recognize as being appropriate for Web-based presentation of applications that are reusable for multiple clients mediums. If there's a sector of the web/ColdFusion community who never wants to move past the CF5 mentality, or wants to continue writing spaghetti "open one page in dreamweaver" code, I'm more than happy to let you be, because I don't want to deal with that type of work or application ever again. To be fair, please realize that there's another section of the same community that does work that requires tools like MVC frameworks, and we're not using/creating them just to make your lives miserable; there's no reason to accuse us of overcomplicating your lives just because you don't "get" our tools. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237350 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
