thanks brad no i hadn't omitted them for simplicity, i will try that as well 
then

thanks again you have been really helpful, will let you know what happens

>Ok, good luck.  Note: I had to fiddle a little bit for my example to
>work.  For instance, there needed to be () around the output of the
>valuelist etc, but I assumed that had been omitted in your post as an
>oversight or for simplicity.
>
>You can start by dumping your two queries and visually confirming that
>what you think exists in them actually does.
>
>~Brad
>
>thanks for the description brad, yes sorry i wrote it wrong they do
>exists in query a and not in query b so i want to find those that exist
>in querya and not in query b.
>
>however your example is quite detailed and shows that the 'where not ()'
>clause should do the trick so there must be something else i am missing
>either in my code or previous outputs. i will output everything slowly
>to see why it is not returning the rows as expected
>
>thanks again for your help 

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