On 1/29/07, Matt Voerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hey Guys, > I just thought i'd chuck in my 2 cents worth here...
Only 2c's? :P > For a start, I don't think this is about Microsoft bashing. I think > the main issue here is, that whilst i'm sure Scott has the best of > (personal) intentions in educating the masses about "the best tools > for the job'. At the end of the day (or is that sales chain) what he's > ultimately offering, amounts to nothing more than a Microsoft sales > pitch (targeted towards Adobe customers (hence it appearing in this CF Think being the keyword. I again draw you back to the original post, whereby I am "asking" (permission based marketing if you will) whether anyone on the list be interested in getting an expansion on how some of the Microsoft products maybe be of interest to the CF developer here. I've gotten quite a lot of responses as being yes. Its not a pitch, its a question. I clearly stated my "intent", "reason" and proposed "outcome" in a transparent manner. Keep it context is all I ask, and so far both you and Grant haven't :) (which I can understand how easy it can be to do so, but in reality you're kind of putting words and assumptions on my behalf without actually consulting me first before hand - so its kind of unfair?) I also clearly stated its a show & tell, which is the exact same format as what we are all used to with existing User Group Presentations (they aren't sales pitches are they? so what gives, and don't play the MSFTE card as its getting old). forum)). Having said that (Mike), I don't think anyone is against > hearing sales pitches per se' - but lets be up front about them. Don't > wrap them up in rhetoric about 'best tool for the job' or 'show and > tell' sessions. You're entitled to your opinion, but I wouldn't assume its right :). It is a show and tell, its not a sales pitch. There is no call to action post its session. It's "here is the tools, this is what they can do, heres an example of some code, any questions?" Pretty much the same format given in again, most User Groups we have all attended monthly? (So do you feel Apollo presentations are sales pitches or informative sessions? Does that also mean Adobe must also abide by the same rules? what are the rules? Point is you're playing the MSFTE card again stating the above. If you harbour distrust towards the company thats cool, sorry to hear that, but it would be a personal issue outside of the context of this discussion). Scott also mentions that he couldn't care one way or another if we > bought into what he's talking about - but i'd hazard a guess his > employer definitely does! And i'm sorry to be the one to break the > news to you mate, but Microsoft didn't employ you for your whit, charm > and good looks ;-) Your official mandate as Microsoft Developer > Evangelist is to 'increase product awareness" (primarily to Adobe > customers *he coughs under his breath*). So whether you want to admit I'm sorry Matt, were you on the selection panel? does my boss Frank confide in you on what I'm paid to do vs not paid to do? In order to answer that remark, you first need to grasp why the "Evangelist" roles exist world-wide in Microsoft ( I could spend a novel on why, but this bit kind of summarises it). "....As an ICT industry leader whose technology products are used by millions of consumers, businesses, and organizations worldwide, Microsoft has a responsibility to develop technology that is based on commonly used standards and to make sure our products work well with those of other companies—including those of our competitors. To help promote innovation, enable greater security throughout the industry, and foster new economic opportunities, we also have a responsibility to share the source code of our leading products..." it or not, the ultimate result of this increased (product) awareness, > is to increase sales (and maybe make a few conversions along the way). Actually, its more about Technology Adoption LifeCycle then awareness. I'd prefer you do your homework some more on what Evangelists do to be honest :) (It took me a while to get my head around it). For what its worth, I personally think your 'compare and contrast' > approach to an 'information session' definitely has its merits - so That my friend is why we have threads like this. Its a dangerous position to be in, because lets say for arguments sake Microsoft has the better solution, by say 53% of the majority vote of sampled developers. I then get up in front of one and all, and talk about how great it is vs the others. I give the other technologies a dress down in terms of the cons. Would that not come off as being "forced opinion". I'd prefer to simply declare warts and all, on what it can do and can't do and then let the others come to their own conclusion as to which is the right fit. As not to do so, is a sales pitch and that's what you've stated you don't want? (so now you want it? - confused?) long as the sessions are totally balanced and unbiased. Unfortunately, > your position with Microsoft ultimately means that this can't be the > case. I hardly think Microsoft are going to endorse you pimping a Not entirely true. I've had conversations with folks about WPF/E and have stated "Use FLEX, as in your case its not suitable for your needs at this point". My boss has asked that I state the facts, call a spade a spade and don't turn into a Microsoft Fanboi. At Microsoft its considered a core value to be self-critical of the products/services we have, as how can we innovate when we become complacent from having only "Good News" rammed down our throats. I'd also like to make a point here that Microsoft's approach to business is significantly different to Adobe, in a lot of ways. I'm getting the feeling that most here may associate Adobe/Macromedia of old's approach to the community as being the same way Microsoft works. I've spoken to some ex-Adobe/Macromedia employees who now work at Microsoft and a lot of the comments were positive in terms of "How people here are so much more accepting of perfections aswell as imperfections". > competitor's solution/product at an event they're funding/sponsoring - > even if the solution/product is better than theirs! Combined with > this, you run the very real risk of alienating Abobe product users > (supporters) by having these (compare-and-contrast) sessions > ultimately ending up on the Microsoft side of the fence - essentially > resulting in them being nothing more than Adobe bagging sessions. Yup, thus I avoid the apples vs oranges discussions. I got roped into it once, and it degenerated into fanboism. Given a lot of pro-Adobeians dislike Microsoft blindly, those discussions usually end in a pissing contest, with the loudest voice wins. I again, refer you to a word that was given to me earlier this year from a wise developer - Agnostic. If I could make a few suggestions regarding how to best tackle/promote > these sessions... > > 1. If you want to do compare-and-contrast sessions (read sales > pitches) please don't hide them under the guise of 'show-and-tell' > sessions. Granted you might actually be demo'ing some Microsoft's > latest and greatest offerings, but lets get real and call a spade a > spade (or at the very least acknowledge what they really are!) I am, i'm showing the products (warts and all) and telling you about what they can and can't do, and how they link back to an average Coldfusion Developer (So how does WPF and Coldfusion play together?, How does a Coldfusion Developer get started with ASP.NET) that kind of mentality. I'm yet to outline the specifics, I was more asking "would this kind of thing be of use to the CFAussies" - Answer was yes (devil is in the detail) 2. Unfortunately, your current position doesn't afford you the luxury > of being a 'tools' fence sitter (I said tools not tool ;-) As such, > don't hide the fact you work for Microsoft (as you've had a tendency > to do in the past). Transparency is the key. Hang on, never said I was a tool fence sitter. I said I will talk about tools that are relevant to the developers in whom I engage. So If I'm in a room full of fanatical Flash Developers, I'd talk about .NET and .NET Remoting etc... so yeah, skewd thinking there Matt ;) As for transparency, the only thing I can think of is the Ted vs Me blog thing. In which I'd argue as to why freaking ask for a email, URL and name as your "metadata" before commenting and then turn around and state "You didn't identify yourself by not having a signature" (even though my name pointed directly at my MSDN blog). So if you're referring to that as being "the past", then I'd argue you clearly insult the intelligence of the average reader who didn't connect the dots on the two. It was Mesh and Ted's belief that potentially users wouldn't realise I wasn't Microsoft (even though not one person publicly supported that claim outside of the two Adobe staffers, so again, I think they underestimate the "street smarts" of the average punter). Transparency is the key and I'd argue "practice what you preach" ;) > 3. I'm not really sure that promoting Microsoft tools/solutions in a > ColdFusion forum is the right place to be doing this. Sure, there may > be some CF'ers out there who are keen to see what offerings MS have up > their sleeves. But i'd hazard a guess if that were the case, I don't > think a CF forum would but the first place I would come looking for > info on MS solutions. Pft, you and I have been on this list like most, for just under a decade. You know better then to come at me with that b.s. I know of a few people on this list that have had to interact with .NET + CF. I've gotten feedback from this thread by actually quite a lot of developers on this list that they want to know more about .NET so that they can gain a better understanding of it. A lot of CF developers whom have invested their time and energy into mastering their craft, have also identified with the fact that there is usually more ASP.NET development work going then CF at certain parts of the year. GIven they have usually mastered the CF component to their career, its arguably fair to state that they also are looking to open up with both eyes instead of one closed. Q. Do you even code in Coldfusion? I thought you were more of a Flash/FLEX man ;) No offence Matt, but this post is ground-hog day for me, as I've seen this prior to my MS joining (i've watched other MSFT Staffers get this kind of email) and Im seeing it afterwards. I too was pro-Adobe Community and can see where some are coming from and the "Sell-out" comments from folks like Ted illustrate how protective we used to get. In a group, I've seen first hand folks denounce Microsoft as the devil. Yet on an individual 1:1 they agree that they aren't that bad after all is said and done. It's an Image problem we faced from "the old days" when we were about maximum market share. Yet, we've turned a path around 5 years ago, its now about different values and different Microsoft. I say we now, because I'd prefer to take ownership of the past and flip it vs playing the victim. Expect to see a different perspective on things is all i can say to you. I disliked Microsoft before I joined and there are parts that I still hate, but rather then point and rant about it, I decided to join and see how I can shake things up. I'm tired of buying the "new" Adobe propaganda and I know you have made long lasting friendships with folks at Adobe, so I'm not sure you're giving a fair assessment on the matter, given these close ties? In reality whats changed? So I joined Microsoft, and the big deal is what? I have more talking points then what Adobe's got on offer... is that bad? pft, i'd argue no. So would the others that are interested in these sessions. > > -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
