Re skins: The differences between the functional array languages are more than skin deep. It's like saying you can go from English to Chinese by changing the font.
On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Robert Bernecky <[email protected]>wrote: > Sorry about the next few messages; they've somehow > been going to the wrong address for many moons... > > Bob > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Jchat] [Jprogramming] J Symbols > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:38:43 -0400 > From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > > > > It has been clear to me for many moons that attempting to > get people to agree on character sets for programming > languages is a waste of time and breath. > > I have campaigned, obviously without effect, for several > decades, for creation of "skins" as front ends for functional > array languages. Just as you can create a skin for a media > player, to customize its appearance to YOUR liking, so we > should be able to create skins for J, APL, Mathematica, etc. > These need not affect the internals of the "array engine" > in any way, but are merely ways that the program > source code is presented to a user. They should be dynamically > switchable at the click of a button. > > For example, we might have the following choices for skins: > > NAME display form internal function > > APL ⍳ index generator > APL ⍳ indexof > J i. index generator (integers?) > J i. indexof > Math $\sigma$ sum (Sorry, no sigma on my kbd) > APL +/ sum > J +/ sum > > and so on. Thus, I could present a program in APL, J, or Math format, > and change that presentation on the fly. Similarly, you could > write a program in any of these formats, and have it accepted > by the array engine, after a trip through the skin. > > That way, we can sidestep the whole issue of The Right Way To > Display Programs In Language X. > > Bob > > On 13-04-12 11:42 AM, Dan Bron wrote: > >> No fixed set of symbols can express the infinite space of ideas. To >> express an idea not represented by a known symbol, you must eventually use >> a compound symbol. >> >> On paper (or electronic paper), space (or lack of space) is the typical >> way humans communicate the idea of "compound" vs "distinct". Note the >> letters in this email - the ones grouped together form words, and >> whitespace allows us to separate words. >> >> Chinese may have tens of thousands of characters, but there are more >> ideas in the world than that. At some point, even in Chinese (or APL), one >> will have to group symbols together to express an idea. Changing the >> spacing will change the grouping, whether in the eyes of a human or a >> computer program (hence newline-delimited sentences even in APL). >> >> I think using non-ASCII symbols in J is a terrible idea. They're hard >> to type, they're hard to communicate (transfer over e.g. email), they're >> unreliable in rendering, and they are (ab initio) no more suggestive than >> ASCII. All "suggestivity" of epsilon or iota or whatever is bred from >> familiarity, and one can become just as familiar with ASCII-based symbols >> to render them suggestive. For example, now when I see # I can't help but >> think of a little sieve, filtering ore from dross. >> >> Moving away from a exotic symbolset to the vanilla, ubiquitous, and >> reliable ASCII standard was a major motivating force in the creation of J. >> That force has not diminished. When Unicode (including all the weirdo >> characters we're proposing to use here) is just as vanilla, ubiquitous, >> reliable, and standard as ASCII, then it will be just as good an idea to >> use Unicode as ASCII. >> >> But we're not there yet. >> >> Having said that, I would be fine with changing J's underpinnings to be >> strict UTF8, so that it would permit Unicode identifiers, comments, >> literals, etc. This would move J closer to the emerging standards of the >> internet, but more importantly, would give each individual user the >> _choice_ of how he'd like to write his J scripts. If someone wanted to use >> iota and epsilon, then fine: >> >> {iota} =: i. >> {epsilon} =: e. >> >> Done. And it's still compatible with all existing J processors >> (including the ones residing in the J community's mental machinery). Plus >> we wouldn't get into an endless, fruitless, enervating debate about which >> exotic symbolset to use. We could each use what we prefer, but >> fundamentally, we'd be using the only correct symbolset: ASCII. >> >> -Dan >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:chat-bounces@forums. >> jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger Hui >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 11:10 AM >> To: Chat Forum >> Subject: Re: [Jchat] [Jprogramming] J Symbols >> >> What I said was: >> >> FYI, the differently spaced versions of the Chinese sentence do not >>> quite >>> >> have the same meaning. Certainly not the same effect. >> >> Put in enough whitespace, esp. different amounts of whitespace, and one >> effect is that it makes it look like you were drunk when you wrote the >> text. Put in enough whitespace, and it has the meaning and effect of >> punctuation (such as comma or parens). I know of at least one example >> learned in grade school where punctuation changed the meaning of a sentence >> to its exact opposite. >> >> I haven't thought much about it, but I believe the same thing works in >> English, where you put the whitespace between words rather than letters. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Raul Miller<[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I do not know chinese, but I'll take Roger's word that the whitespace >>> still has some significance there. >>> >>> [Replying in chat, also] >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -- >>> Raul >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Skip Cave<[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Raul, >>>> >>>> Who said that ASCII English was ideal? >>>> >>>> Here's the sentence "I do not see why this should be an ideal" in >>>> >>> Mandarin. >>> >>>> 我不明白為什麼這應該是一個理想的 >>>> >>>> And here's the same sentence again in Mandarin, with different >>>> spacing, >>>> >>> but >>> >>>> with the same meaning. . >>>> >>>> 我不明 白為 什 麼這 應該 是 一 個理想的 >>>> >>>> And here's the same sentence again in Mandarin, with even different >>>> spacing, yet with the same meaning. >>>> >>>> 我 不明白 為什 麼這 應該 是 一個 理 想 的 >>>> >>>> So true single-glyph symbolic languages are space-independent, and >>>> >>> that's a >>> >>>> GOOD thing for writing. Your example shows why languages that use >>>> multi-glyph words or symbols like English and J and thus are NOT >>>> space independent, are a BAD thing for handwriting. >>>> >>>> When you write your sentence on the board in English, you have to be >>>> careful to clearly indicate where the spaces are, or you get what >>>> you showed in your first example. With a single-glyph languager like >>>> Chinese, the spaces don't matter much. >>>> >>>> Skip >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Raul Miller<[email protected]> >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 6:02 AM, Skip Cave >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ideally a written version of the language should be >>>>>> space-independent. >>>>>> >>>>> Id ono ts eew hyt hi ssh oul db ea nid e al. >>>>> >>>>> I do not see why this should be an ideal. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Raul >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- For information about J forums see >>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Skip Cave >>>> Cave Consulting LLC >>>> Phone: 214-460-4861 >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- For information about J forums see >>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
