Well... I do have to admit that j. is both easier to type and (without
considerable complex work) significantly more efficient than

   jdot=: ((], 0j_1*-) -:@(++)) : (+ 0j1*])"0

It can also be nice to use.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul


On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Roger Hui <[email protected]> wrote:
> This is a very interesting topic: What should be a primitive?
>
> For example, why do you think j. is a primitive?  This is exercise 8 in *Some
> Exercises in APL Language Design
> <http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/APLDesignExercises.htm>*.  A possible
> answer is also included there.  I don't know that that is _the_ answer in
> the context of J.  Iverson designed it and I implemented it without
> discussion.  (I should have asked him about it.)  I think the j. function
> is one of those masterstrokes which separates a master from the rest of us.)
>
> I don't think there is a simple answer to the first question above.  I
> believe you have to consider the five "important characteristics of
> notation", found in *Notation as a Tool of Thought
> <http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm>*.  Note that non-redundancy is
> not included.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It's interesting to note how J includes a fair bit of redundancy
>>
>> For example, we have - but we also have <: (which is -&1) and we have
>> -. (which is 1&-). Why do we have these?
>>
>> Primarily, for educational contexts. It can be useful when teaching
>> people to have specific words for commonly used operations.
>>
>> The underlying principle here, I think, is one of giving people
>> multiple perspectives when relaying a concept. I think the hope is
>> that at least some of it will "stick".
>>
>> But, also, for example, using -. for logical negation segues easily
>> into bayesian probability. There, we do not simply have 1 and 0 for
>> true and false, but we have a whole range of probabilities in between.
>> We can keep using -. for logical negation (it becomes the probability
>> of the event NOT happening), but we have to switch from *. to * for
>> combing events.
>>
>> If A and B are independent probability variables then A*B is the
>> probability that both are true. Similarly, if A and B are logical
>> variables, then A*B is true if and only if both A and B are true. We
>> can use * for logical AND. But the corresponding OR statement would be
>> *&.-.
>>
>> And J does not define that "bayesian OR" as a primitive, perhaps in
>> part to emphasize the need for understanding its derivation, perhaps
>> in part because it's only 5 characters already to get the
>> implementation and perhaps in part to emphasize the divide between
>> probability and logic.
>>
>> Anyways, without -. we would instead need *&.(1&-) which is just a bit
>> more unwieldy (but which, ok, would still work).
>>
>> Food for thought, perhaps...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Raul
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

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