# Re: [Jchat] [Jprogramming] Insert initialising

This seems to be one of those cases where J was ahead of its time at birth but
has failed to keep up with industry standards.  Mathematica has had Fold for
over 20 years.

On 03/02/2018 09:12 AM, Raul Miller wrote:

I'm responding on the chat forum, since I'm not sure my thoughts are
relevant enough for the programming forum:

Reading over that fold proposal, I almost immediately want things to
be different.

Z: is complicated, the v argument is complicated and relates to Z:'s
complications, we wind up with a lot of new primitives which work
almost exactly like existing primitives but there's no visual cues for
that.

So, my thought experiment goes, let's try to discard some of that and
see where it leads. Instead of building this up as a system
independent of J, let's treat J as a specification language and this
new mechanism as a modifier of those specifications.

In other words, I think we can get away with just one adverb that gets
the desired behaviors from an existing u/ u/\. u^: expressions.

I am going to propose `. as that adverb. F. is just as viable, but
having a different name makes it easier to distinguish between the
proposals in when comparing and contrasting them.

I am going to use U and V to represent verbs here, also, for much the
same reason: to hopefully avoid some confusions. (I am basing my
proposal on the original draft, so I want to start by focusing on what
I propose to change.)

------------------------------

I think we can discard the v argument to the F... conjunction. For
example, V@u/`. would replace u F.:v

I know that V@u/`. looks more complicated, but I think we don't really
need v and u/`. is simpler than u F.:]

Also, my hope here is that the visual similarities will pay off.  u/1
2 3 works just like u/`.1 2 3 so I think it's good that they are
visually similar.

With v gone, the left arguments to Z: go away also - we retain the _1
Z: meaning and get the effect of the 1 Z: meaning by having Z: as the
final stage of our u verb. (We might even discard Z: itself - for
example we could use ]:`. - but Z: is a suggestive name, so would keep
it.) This lets us make Z: be an ambivalent verb. The monad terminates
unconditionally (for use in @. structures) and the dyad takes a truth
valued left argument to decide whether or not to terminate.

The iterating folds seem to be motivated by the early termination
behavior of ^:_ so let's have  U^:_`. give us that (or, discard that
sometimes unwanted feature), but let's revisit this in a moment...

------------------------------

In other words:

F.: gets replaced by /`.
F:: gets replaced by /\.`.

Basically, `. does not treat its left argument as a black box (the t.
model), but instead treats it as a white box (more along the lines of
some of the d. implementation).

We don't have a left-to-right / adverb, which is a bit awkward, so I
propose we repurpose another adverb for that, in the context of `.
expressions. But let's take a step back for a moment:

Keep in mind that `. expressions are symbolic, so if someone did U//`.
we should expect the (U/) expression to still be a black box. It's
only the outermost / whose execution properties we're replacing.

With that in mind, I would propose we use ~`. for left-to-right folds.
It's a different visual pun, but we do at least have the "reverse left
and right" aspect of the original ~ adverb to help serve our
instincts:

F.. gets replaced by ~`.
F:. gets replaced by ~\`.

------------------------------

I think I've covered most of the possibilities, but I've sort of
glossed over F. and F: and why they both exist and how to emulate
them. And, to be honest, I don't really know why those were proposed
as the most concise folds in the original proposal nor do I understand
why they should both exist. Hypothetically, u~^:_`. and u^:_`. could
serve, but there's nothing preventing F. and F: from being
implemented. Following through on the reasoning which motivated
proposal might make those be adverbs, but ... I really don't know so
I'll stop here for now.

Thanks,

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