Hi Don,
I too remember keypunch staff. They were trained not to interpret
meaning into anything they keyed - because then they might unconsciously
change text to a meaningful word. For me this would be one of the most soul
destroying of all jobs, because, like you, I was trained to seek meaning. It
was incomprehensible to me - but they had to run on autopilot. The last
thing they needed to do was concentrate. They were free to think and talk
about whatever they enjoyed. They felt they were paid to sit around and
gossip.
You point about predictability is important. We don't get predictability
today.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Guinn" <[email protected]>
To: "Chat forum" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Jchat] Language S
> As to terminals for APL. I noticed that people seemed think that a request
> was finished when the typewriter started typing, where on a screen when it
> stopped displaying, a lot longer. I particularly liked a system CDC built.
> I
> can't remember what it was called, PLATO I think, but it's installation
> included a parameter which was a minimum turnaround time. If the computer
> had the answer in less than this time, the response was delayed until this
> minimum time was met. Gave predictable response no matter what the
> request.
> I was given the problem to determine why some data entry people were so
> unhappy with some new terminals. The response was always faster than the
> old
> system.What could be the problem? It turned out that instead of each
> terminal directly connected to the multiplexer channel they went through a
> controller. Even though it was faster, it did not give predictable
> response
> as response varied depending on what other operators were doing on the
> same
> controller. It was strange talking these data entry people. They could
> carry
> on an intelligent conversation while still entering the data. They knew
> just
> exactly how long to wait before trying to enter data after hitting the
> return. It was important to them to be as efficient as possible as they
> were
> graded on their throughput.
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Don Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Your second question, Bill, is the $64,000 question. I am only
>> thinking
>> presently of the issue of persuading the J community that there is
>> something
>> worth doing.
>>
>> To answer your first question, I taught the first course at our local
>> university in which the students used a computer. I met Ken Iverson in
>> the
>> 1960s and knew him through the APL community for which I jointly edited
>> its
>> magazine , Quote Quad - or was it Quad Quote? - for two years. I wrote a
>> self teaching package in APL in the 1960s which was an ancestor of your
>> labs, except that Computer Assisted Instruction was a big thing then, so
>> if
>> you got a wrong answer, it tried to take you down a corrective path. If
>> you
>> do some arithmetic, you can see that the answer to your first question
>> has
>> to be "no".
>>
>> I stated the above to give credibility to the idea that I do have some
>> experience in watching APL spread - and studying history can give clues
>> to
>> how to approach the future - and thus provide an answer your second
>> question. Yes, IBM was rich and rich enough to finance a lot of research
>> which might or might not come to any financial success. APL's ability to
>> show that the 360 series was consistent was helpful, but convincing data
>> processing executives that there was money in Mathematics was a hard
>> task.
>>
>> APL spread, not from the top down, but from the bottom up. I first met
>> it when I went to seminar entitled: "The Role of the Computer in
>> Teaching".I
>> watched the instructor, K. Iverson, talking about this language,
>> wondering
>> all the time why he didn't use a language we all knew, like Algol or
>> Fortran. Then it suddenly clicked - this isn't just another computer
>> language. All over North America, other university teachers were having
>> the
>> same experience I had. Only when we were all using APL did IBM think it
>> was
>> worth promoting it to us. We loaned terminals to the local college and
>> local
>> schools, using the old modems where you stuck the phone receiver into a
>> wooden box. I wrote an interactive program for vistor demonstration that
>> we
>> used for school tours. In those days this produced squeals of delight,
>> because the hammering of the typeball at the paper at the breakneck speed
>> of
>> 15 characters per second made it seem that the computer was talking to
>> them - and, if you can imagine it, children were very unsophisticated
>> about
>> computers then.
>>
>> I have used J to illustrate infinite series to a gifted10 year old
>> boy
>> amongst other things. It has shown me, for example, that getting across
>> the
>> idea of a limit, which is probably the biggest barrier to the
>> understanding
>> of Calculus, can be taught so easily with a portable computer system at
>> an
>> early age. By the time the student gets to Calculus, limits can be "old
>> hat". A universally portable powerful mathematical system brought to the
>> classroom is excessively important in the teaching of Mathematics.
>> However,
>> in the 1960s it took a lot of money to set up computer labs. I knew
>> professors who tried to use the computer in the 1970s for teaching
>> Mathematics, but carrying an IBM 360/50 with you to the classroom or even
>> laying a long cable along the corridoor and carrying an IBM 2741 printer
>> terminal was out of the question. It is much easier today. One cannot
>> survive and be a good teacher without having a portable computer already.
>> The 2741 had to have a special typeball, which meant it was useless for
>> any
>> other purpose. J uses an ASCII keyboard. So there is a huge advantage
>> today
>> in the task of spreading a computer system - the user doesn't have to
>> spend
>> any money on hardware. All that has to be done is to sell the idea.
>>
>> J is aimed at a sophisticated community. I can see that from the
>> documentation and the responses given in this debate. In the 1960s APL
>> was
>> able to reach everyone. I am just asking myself what the barriers are to
>> J
>> reaching eveyone. One barrier is tacit programming and I have been trying
>> to
>> address that one. A second barrier is the two character symbols. While it
>> doesn't take that long to get used to them, it's the first view of the
>> house
>> that sells it. If you can't get them in through the front door, they will
>> never know what a beautiful dining room the house has. I have partially
>> addressed that one, but I will return to it. Another set of documentation
>> is
>> needed. I do have qualifications and experience in both Mathematics and
>> Computer Science, but I have a struggle with the notes behind the
>> vocabulary. That won't attract a 5th grade school teacher.
>>
>> Finally, I can give some suggestion as to why the use of APL shrank.
>> One
>> advantage initially, believe it or not, was in the slowness of the
>> terminal.
>> We happily keyed in our programs and expressions and pressed return.
>> There
>> was a short pause and the terminal began hammering away. It really felt
>> as
>> if the computer was talking to us. We were quite happy to wait while it
>> printed. But the point is that a terminal was a very light load as a
>> result.
>> When we moved to computer screens, things changed. Nothing chattered to
>> amuse us, the response was quick, we became impatient for a quicker and
>> quicker response and the computer load increased. However, there was
>> still
>> not much else on computers that was fun. Microcomputers brought
>> customized
>> fun. So mathematical computing is for ever reduced to a serious purpose.
>> Progress moves in cycles, in ebbs and flows. I think it is time for
>> another
>> flow.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "bill lam" <[email protected]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Language S
>>
>>
>> > On Fri, 24 Apr 2009, Don Watson wrote:
>> >> 9) I believe there is a huge audience out there for a mutation of J
>> >> that
>> >> is
>> >> ````consistent throughout, has a shorter learning curve and is closer
>> >> to
>> >> ````mathematical notation.
>> >
>> > You mentioned that your target audience would be primary and high
>> > school teachers, are you in any organisational hierarchy to influence
>> > the academic curriculum? If not, why would think that (S or J or any
>> > perfect programming language) will be well accepted?
>> >
>> > --
>> > regards,
>> > ====================================================
>> > GPG key 1024D/4434BAB3 2008-08-24
>> > gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3
>> > 唐詩042 李白 子夜四時歌 冬歌
>> > 明朝驛使發 一夜絮征袍 素手抽鍼冷 那堪把剪刀 裁縫寄遠道 幾日到臨洮
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
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