> Here is a puzzle for mathematically-minded Jers.  
> What is the result of the following sentence? 
> 
>          +/ 2 ^ - i. _
> 
> Don, note:  there is no J interpreter in the world that can 
> answer that question.  

You need to insert "(as yet)" between "there is" and
"no J interpreter in the world than can answer that question".

http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/general/2005-December/026024.html



----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Bron <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 16:02
Subject: [Jchat] Number Machines (moved from jgeneral)
To: [email protected]

> (Thread moved from General to Chat; all follow-ups here)
> 
> Don,
> 
> First, let me show you a parlor trick.  Here is a puzzle for
> mathematically-minded Jers.  What is the result of the 
> following sentence? 
> 
>          +/ 2 ^ - i. _
> 
> Don, note:  there is no J interpreter in the world that can 
> answer that
> question.  So the only way for a Forum member to answer me 
> is to read the J
> as a notation, and manipulate it, symbolically, in his 
> head.  If you want to
> ask the same question via email, using your preferred 2D 
> notation, how do
> you do it?
> 
> Now, on to my thoughts on your message to Chris:
> 
>    *  Why do you think math should be taught 
> using standard math
>       notation (SMN)?
> 
>    *  Many members of the J community are 
> mathematically-minded 
>       and take interest in teaching 
> math.  Several have used J
>       with success in that 
> endeavor.  How?
> 
>    *  SMN is not some holy, god-given language 
> for the expression
>       of mathematical thoughts.  
> In fact, as John Randall is fond
>       of pointing out, it is an 
> inconsistent agglutination of 
>       notation from recent centuries.
>   
>    *  If teaching math is a way of promoting 
> rigorous, consistent 
>       thought, should we not use a 
> rigorous, consistent notation?
> 
>    *  KEI, whom you admire, invented APL (and its 
> later dialect J)
>       as a rationalized, simplified 
> revamping of (some parts of)
>       SMN.  
> 
>    *  Can you really tell me that 
> 
>               2  
>             3x  + 9x + 27 = 0
> 
>       is superior to (3 9 27 * x ^ 2 1 
> 0) or even (27 9 3 p. x)?
>       And that {big sigma, iterator 
> declaration, bounds, indicies}
>       And {big pi, iterator 
> declaration, bounds, indicies} are
>       preferable to  +/  
> and  */  respectively?  If so, what do
>       you prefer to  
> ^/   ?
> 
>    *  Originally, APL was only a notation, but 
> because it was 
>       rationalized, it was amenable to 
> computerized execution;
>       and so an interpreter was built 
> for it. The effect was
>       that as the notation developed, 
> much attention was
>       paid to maintaining and 
> increasing that amenability, with 
>       the results you see today.
> 
>    *  In addition to being an executable 
> mathematical notation,
>       APL is a programming language, 
> which IMO, is a 
>       generalization.
>       
>    *  What advantages does SMN have over 
> APL?  Obviously, it 
>       is incumbent and widespread, 
> which is large hurdle to
>       overcome (viz QWERTY).  But 
> if no one tries to overcome it,
>       it will rule forever, warts and 
> all. Vive la revolucion!
> 
>    *  Since you propose to teach math to children 
> who don't 
>       know math yet, we have a good 
> opportunity to change
>       the notation.
>         
> Now, the above is a bit tongue-in-cheek.  I do not see 
> APL/J as a
> replacement for SMN.  Because it's not as general as SMN; 
> for example, J is
> a numerical platform, not a symbolic platform, so SMN is much 
> more advanced
> for symbolic manipulation.  Similarly, J is well defined on 
> ordered data;
> lists and vectors and matrixes and such, and much less used for 
> unordereddata like sets.  Finally, J is a well-defined, 
> architected notation.  It is
> not easily extensible for exploring new notation for still-fuzzy 
> concepts (a
> whiteboard is infinitely more powerful here).
> 
> So why don't we use J for what it's good for?  I can see it 
> being practical
> and useful to teach arithmetic, algebra, trig, statistics, some 
> calculus,etc, but progressively less useful for higher maths, 
> particularly as they
> become more abstract.
> 
> -Dan
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