Hi Peggy, And thank you.
There has finally been some progress. As a result, I've had a dog that has mostly slept quite peacefully through the day. I am concerned about the kennel cough. Which is why I initially kept her outside time limited. At one point I was going to limit her to piddle pads until she was healthy. She was also originally going to be kept to the bathroom because I didn't want the germs all over the house. That last bit hasn't worked. Actually, none of it has worked out. Sick or not, I had a stir-crazy dog and keeping her in the house has not been an option. However, she's never allowed into the room where Sylvie sleeps at night. And now that I've found something she responds to, I will probably cut walks until she's fully recovered. I did read the article. And many others. I will read them again as many of the sites I went to did not mention duration of the virus, how it's spread. There are mixed messages everywhere. Training's pretty much stopped. There was never much going on short of 'sit' anyway, and that just basic manners and a much easier way to get her to take her meds. Rehoming is pretty much a sure thing at this point. This just isn't working out. There are compatibility issues. She's a good dog. She's a sweet dog. But it feels like there's something missing. There's no 'click'. And that's never happened including with animals that have been less than friendly and prone towards biting. I used to rescue small animals - hamsters, gerbils, rats. Had a hamster I loved to pieces but he was a right bastard that would get very snuggly right before he bit you. I am based in Southern California. I have spoken to at least one rescue - they will not take her because of the KC more importantly, they will not take her because of potential SA issues. That double whammy is more than most everyone seems to be willing or able to deal with. If there are any more howling episodes, I will definitely try your ignore/reward method. Many many thanks again Autumn --- In [email protected], Peggy & The Girls <phrpg5@...> wrote: > > Well I have been reading all of your post, and I have to say, that I agree > with you......You are better off re-homing her. As a past professional dog > trainer, dealing mostly with aggressive dogs, I have also learned to read > into the human, which can and usually tells most dog trainers more about > their dog then what the owner can explain. > > In the meantime, I would like to address a couple of points. (1) You asked > why no one mentioned taking her for long walks. Because she is sick and > excessive exercise can and usually does increase coughing. Also, every > place that you have walked her now has the virus, because a dog with KC can > shed the virus for up to two weeks after it is over it. I believe that I > sent you a link on it when you first said that she had it. I hope that you > read it. Your other dog may very well come down with it, even if it is a > month from now, because while she is walking and coughing the wind is > blowing the virus, to lay the least that your other dog can be smelling the > same spot that she previously smelled and breathe in the virus. It it is a > highly contagious virus, and everything that the infected dog comes into > contact with, needs to be sterilized and kept super clean, to get rid of it > in the environment. > > (2) A sick dog is not a responsive dog, no matter how hard you try to be the > pack leader. Even a dog as the pack leader, ignores a sick member of it's > pack. The other members will cater to the sick member, by leaving food and > regurgitating food until the sick dog is well again. So you are working > against nature, no matter what breed of dog you have, which is why most > people wait until a dog has had full recovery before starting any type of > training. > > (3) Not all of Cesar's methods work on every single dog. Each dog has a > different personality and different needs, so going strictly according to > his methods are useless for a dog like Pia. I have a great deal of respect > for CM and have used some of his methods successfully, but unless you are > the type of person that instinctively knows how to read into an animal, you > can make matters much worse by using some of his methods. Besides most of > his methods are more geared toward aggression then anything else. I do agree > that going for long walks does better the bond in a pack of dogs, and can > help to some degree with helping the pack leader as long as the dog isn't > dragging you down the block. But I feel that long walks are more of a good > exercise and takes the boredom out of a dogs life, then anything else that > it is hyped up to be. > > (4) The 'Ignore" method is my method, I have found this to be the best, > quickest, and most humane and natural way to train a dog. It is pretty much > the same method that dogs use when communicating between themselves. And Yes > by using it with a calm, but assertive attitude, the dog will respond much > quicker. > > But, a person has to remember the golden rule.... For every positive their > is a negative.......So when using the 'ignore' that's the negative, and the > positive is when the dog does what you want and you reward it. So you just > ignoring her screams as you did in the beginning and not giving her the > reward immediately left her head hanging out in space thinking "Now what am > I suppose to do?" > > Scenario: > > Have tiny bits of treats in your left hand. Take a big deep breath, feel > your body calm down so that you feel very relaxed and approach her. You > should always take that deep breath and calm relaxed position anytime you > start any type of training lessons with a dog. Beware that a dog picks up on > your body language faster then you can blink an eye or utter a word. > > She is in the bathroom with a gate at the entrance. You walk up to her and > bend over the gate and pet her and tell her she is a 'good girl'. Then you > turn around, so that your back is to her, take a couple slow steps forward, > if she is quiet for that split second because she is not sure what you are > going to do next....then turn around quickly, but do not walk towards her > and throw her a treat while she is being quiet. > > If she starts to even let out a whimper once your back is to her then stay > in that position until she has that split second where their is no sound > from her, then turn around throw her a treat. Then turn your back to her > again, take another step, if she is quiet turn around and throw her a treat. > You can use the word "Quiet" only when your back is to her, but use only a > firm calm, low key, tone. You can use the "good girl" only when you throw > the treat, but change the tone to a higher pitch with a little excitement in > it. > > The idea is that each time she lets out any type of sound, you turn your > back to her. That's the 'ignore' command. When she is quiet, even for a > split second...you face her and throw the treat. Each time you do this you > will walk further and further away, so I hope you have a good arm and good > aim, lol. I once trained some ones very hyper Westie with this method, but > didn't have to walk away for even one step, because the dog was so tuned > body language, that he knew that a turned back or a turned face, which is > exactly what another dog would do when it doesn't like the behavior of the > other dog, that the Westie 'got it' in 10 minutes, just by me standing there > and turning my back and then facing him to give him the treat, and this was > a very vocal, hyper dog! > > So you have to be fast at your own reactions, make sure you have a normal > face on, neither angry, short of patience, nor a smile. Just calm and > assertive the way another dog would be. > > Patience, is one of the key qualities to dog training. Because you are not > sure what is the best method for Pia, you are trying out to many different > things all within a weeks time, which is way to much for any animal to > comprehend. Nipping it in the bud doesn't work when you both don't even know > each other. Realize that it takes the average dog 6 -8 months to fully > adjust, feel secure and bond to a new owner, especially when it is an older > dog and it has been bounced around into different enviroments. > > Stick to a scheduale of feeding, bathroom time for doing her business, > walking (since you want to do that), one-on-one playtime, rest time. Dogs > have built in clocks and know what is coming next, so she will look forward > to that special play time. > > What does she do when you do let her loose and lets say you are in the > kitchen? Does she sit there and watch you? Ask for attention? Howl at you? > What does she do when she is loose and you are sitting at your desk on your > computer? What does she do when she is loose and you sit on the couch to > watch TV, does she try to force herself on you to snuggle up? If so what do > you do?, especially if you don't feel like having her on your lap at the > moment? > > Gigi followed me around constantly for the first two weeks, I think it is > their way of wanting to feel more secure and that we are not going to > abandon them again. I also believe it is their way of watching our routine > and what we are doing, after a while they are able to pick up just on the > sound as to what we are doing even if they are in another room, and that > sound ( like they hear us doing the dishes) tells them that they can just > chill out and we are not going anywhere. She also showed some separation > aniexty when I had to block her in the bathroom at the begining. However, > unlike you, she was loose in the house all day and as long as I put her on > the pads a couple of times a day, she was fine. I rather enjoyed her > following me around and then just sit there starring up at me. I found it to > be very adorable to see that sweet face, and she always manages to make me > smile. At night, once she was put in the bathroom, I would say ''it's time > to go to sleep" and turn off the light. If she cried, I would yell out > "go to sleep". By the 3rd night she was use to that phrase and knew that was > it for the night and no more attention, and would settle down in her bed. > > As far as treats go, you may want to try pure dehydrated liver or chicken > and break it up into small pieces for training. Adding peanut butter inside > a kong toy will give you a good 15 minutes of bliss too. Mine also love > cheese spread inside the kong toy. > > So I hope that you can master the howling for now, and give her more freedom > during the day, but I strongly suggest not doing any other type of training > with her. Just re-home her. I feel that Pia would do great with a senior > home-body type of person, who looks foward to having her on her lap and > dotes her with all the affection that she needs. Pia is to humanized and > spoiled from her previous owner, so the odds are she will ignore other dogs, > and or try to compete for affection which would disrupt another persons pack > so she is better off being in an one-on-one enviroment. > > A single person who knows dogs may not mind taking a dog with KC as long as > you provide the meds. Rescue groups take dogs from the shelters all the time > with KC and treat them. But considering how full the Rescues are with Chi's > it would be a miracle if you find some one who has the room for her. You may > be better off advertising her privately and through your Vet. What state do > you live in? > > Peggy > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: freddyscribbles > Date: 5/9/2011 11:12:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Chihuahuas] Re: SOS! Re-homing Pia Late May - early June - sooner > if something can be arranged > > > Hi Sheila > > Thank you for responding! > > I have heard and read reports about Millan - I think his show is > entertaining, but not a 'teaching aid'. But I suppose if one person learns > that getting angry and yelling st or hitting your dog doesn't actually work, > than that's been worthwhile. His books are only marginally better, but if I > find something in there that I can modify and use to my advantage, why not? > I nearly flipped out when I heard he'd been using choke collars on dogs. > > At this point, I'm all over the internet. Particularly here because, well, > who better to help with chihuahuas than owners who've dealt with rescues? I > mention Cesar simply because he's easily accessible. A lot of the other > sources are unnamed. Some of what I've been doing has come from experience > working with quite a lot of larger dogs. Which still doesn't always suit the > instability issues as these were well balanced dogs. > > No rescues will take her right now because of the kennel cough. I have > already proposed fostering for OC Chihuahua Rescue. Or at least working with > them. Although I hadn't planned on placing Pia. She was supposed to be my > dog. > > She is on meds until Saturday. At which point I need to evaluate the > situation and see if another trip to the vet is necessary. And if she's well > enough, I need to schedule an appointment to finish vaccinations and get her > spayed. > > Exercise does seem to be a major key. A very, very major key. Took a two > mile walk with Pia and the other dog this morning. One on each side. No > incidents - a little skittish in the morning. But for the most part she does > well on a leash. Initially she wants to lead. Which is easy enough to > correct. And she blessedly she largely ignores other high-energy barking > dogs in yards that we pass. I had a calm dog by the time I got home. Or at > least a tired one. Basic reward based training when we got home - great way > to get her meds to her. Headed off the howl fest before it had a chance to > get started. And now she's quite happily curled up asleep on her bed. > > I'd have enrolled in her in a puppy class immediately, except due to KC and > the delay on a few key vaccinations because of this, it's not possible. > > I have tried the petting thing. The long hours just sort of hanging with the > dog - typical human means of showing affection. There has not been a single > incident where prolonged cuddling has not made the separation anxiety worse. > Petting as reward seems to be okay. But, the lap dog thing - not so much. > > Right now - the primary issue seems to be the separation anxiety. Which > results in the screaming. Which is the part that's driving me crazy. Again.. > walking seems to help. A lot. I wish I'd started that from day one except 1. > she was really quite ill 2. I had read that chihuahuas aren't big walkers, > can't walk far, don't walk far, get tired easily - and maybe that would be > typical of the breed. It is not true for Pia. The first one was a reasonable > excuse not to walk the dog for a day or two. The second is just bollocks. I > reckon she could have gone longer than two miles. > > I also notice that I tend to post a lot more when she's freaking out. And be > a bit more aggressive because I've usually had it, and with her in another > room away from me, it's sort of venting. Yes the howling is driving me crazy > Yes I think she's going to be an excellent dog. Yes, there are very good > positive things here to work with. Yes, I tend to take a more rigid approach > to animals than a lot of people. I don't think I've ever baby talked to a > dog. But then, I don't baby talk to children either. But I've never seen > dogs as four legged humans. Part of the family? Yes. Human? No. So...I'm > still trying to adjust. She's still trying to adjust. Excessive cuddling > just isn't helping anyone. And I don't think, just because of her size, she > needs to be a lap dog. Or carried around. > > When I am working directly with her, there is neither anger or frustration. > There is none of the frenetic late night typing exasperation that her > howling elicits. It's just - work. Working together towards a result. When I > am with the dog, I am calm, even tempered. Firm but not overly harsh. > Completely in control of my emotions and reactions. At least around her. It > s like dealing with the horse when it fell in the pool - I had two choices. > I could flip out and make the situation worse. Or I could act, and get him > out safely and freak out about it later once the trouble has passed. Pia is > the same way. When I'm working with her, I'm working with her - that is my > focus - calm, deliberate action. When she's put away or I'm out, I bang my > head on the table. Yes, things are bad. But when I'm with the dog working, > that's not what I let myself focus on. > > This has just been a bad mix. There are a lot of things that could have gone > very right. A lot of things, unfortunately, have gone rather wrong. I > misjudged her personality and energy levels - she was a lot sicker than I > thought, and this meant there was quite a lot of malaise when I first was > introduced to her. That is my inexperience. If I had someone here to help me > so that I could get a break every once in awhile, that would have also > helped. A walking buddy. Or someone else who could take one of two daily > walking shifts. > > I don't blame the dog for the behavior. I never have. I'll see how two walks > a day go. And maybe I can start re-introducing cuddle time. Right now is not > the time. Play time. Reward/work time. Head petting. But the lap dog thing.. > no go. That has always had a noticeably negative effect. And as I said.. > there is no reason for her to be a lap dog. Being tiny isn't a good enough > excuse. > > As for the screaming - once it escalates to the point it did last night, I > don't know how to stop it short of giving in and letting her out. And I > cannot believe that this would be an appropriate way to handle the situation > > > One more thing...and this is a general point. The advice 'She just wants to > be with you. So give her a lot more loving because that will help her get > over x.y.z' or those who get peevish when I clearly state that I'm not a > huge dog cuddler - cuddling a dog that's exhibiting behavior you're trying > to correct is like shoving candy down a child's throat to shut him up. > Neither small creature is served particularly well by these psychological > pacifiers. And small dog does not equate to lap dog. She may want to be on > my lap. That doesn't mean she gets to be on my lap. A larger dog may want to > be on the furniture. That doesn't mean he is allowed on the furniture. 'If > you didn't want a lap dog, why did you get a chihuahua'...Yes. I've been > asked this. Lap Dog is a human invention. The only thing that makes it a lap > dog is size and a person's willingness to have a dog on their lap. A > chihuahua does NOT have to be a lap dog. Apologies for getting my hackles up > a bit on this one point - I've had some people throw a fit because I don't > let the dog sleep in my bed, in my room, run all over the house, sit in my > lap. That is just about as frustrating as dealing with her behavior. > > There are two huge things that Pia needs to learn. > 1. When she's left alone, she is not being abandoned. I will come back. > 2. Throwing a tantrum won't get the results that you want. The problem is > stopping the screaming before it escalates to screaming. Haven't quite > nailed that one yet. > > So...another day. Focus on the positive. Hope we get somewhere. Don't worry > about what happened yesterday. Or what might happen later today. Positive > thinking. Positive energy. Anyway...the dog's had her workout. Time for the > owner to get hers. > > --- In [email protected], "dasha" <dasha48@> wrote: > > > > Personally I think you are trying too hard to be the pack leader. There is > > more to training a dog than this. If you have access to a good positive > > based trainer that would help. The words "pack leader" are way overused > and > > taken wrong for the most part'. However, considering the way you feel why > > don't you contact one of your local rescues and see if they can re home > her > > for you? The dog needs way more than you can give her at this point. > > > > It is not a magical thing to be a "pack leader" and this won't solve > > problems that are probably in this dog's past. And calm submissive is not > > all it is cracked up to be. Forcing her is apparently not working. FYI try > > another book besides Caesar and at this point I am not sure why you are > > still reading and following his book. Personally I hate the way he uses > the > > words pack leader and there are known cases where it has done more harm > than > > good. The exercise I agree with but the rigid discipline apparently does > not > > agree with this dog. She is trying to tell you in her own way that what > you > > are doing is not working. Try Victoria Stilwells' It's me of the dog, > there > > are several other options also. No matter what you see on TV or read the > > so-called miracles of Milan, it is a long process, it won't happen > > overnight. > > > > I also don't see much in your post about loving on and petting this dog. > > Maybe she just needs some "loving attention?" > > > > Letting her go would not be giving up, it would be doing something that is > > better for the dog. > > > > Sheila > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf Of freddyscribbles > > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 3:40 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [Chihuahuas] SOS! Re-homing Pia Late May - early June - sooner if > > something can be arranged > > > > Okay folks - this is an SOS. > > > > I had the best intentions. I still do. But I do not think I will be able > to > > maintain 'calm assertive pack leader' much longer. It cannot be a good > thing > > when, in the back of your mind, you kind of quietly wish you could let her > > 'escape' for the coyotes - at least than I could get some sleep - it's > like > > mothers with those super crying babies... Before I start getting hate mail > - > > I would never do this. Nor would I ever return her to the shelter. But > this > > is not a mental state conducive to bringing around a neurotic dog. This > dog > > deserves better than what I am able to provide. Or maybe I am what she > > needs. But I do not feel in the least bit bonded to this little girl. At > > all. I feel responsible. And exasperated. Which in some ways is good > because > > it means I take her rehabilitation seriously. > > > > Bottom line - > > > > This just isn't working out between us. There is what you'd call a huge > > compatibility issue. > > > > I have found a dog that is way too high energy for what I am currently > able > > to accommodate. With quite a few more psychological/behavioral issues than > I > > am prepared to address or experienced enough to correct. > > > > Every day is a constant battle of wills. I'm a stubborn bugger. So is she. > > My house. My rules. But it's a constant 'Shut up shut up shut up!' Scream > > your heart out. You will not get your way. Again - before someone tells me > > this is cruel...I do NOT cater to bad behavior. I have worked to correct > it. > > I have gone in, back to her, calm, assertive, and backed her into bed. And > > left. That usually puts her into an easy state of mind. At least for a > > little while. Than...the howling. > > > > This increasing tension can't be healthy for either of us. Could I turn > her > > into a calm submissive ideal pet? Probably. I absolutely believe that she > > will be easy to rehabilitate and turn into an ideal canine citizen. I just > > don't have the experience to do this. And this calm, assertive pack leader > > is increasingly fed up with the howling. And screaming. And whining. And > > scratching at the back of the door. Could I give in and save myself a few > > headaches? Yes. Absolutely. Am I going to? No. > > > > I am pack leader. > > > > These are my rules - at night, you sleep in the bathroom. When I am > working, > > you are in the hallway because it is the same as if I were not home. When > I > > am 'home', you can be over by the door in my line of sight. Howling is not > > answered. Period. I will NOT reinforce bad behavior. Even at the expense > of > > pulling out the last bloody hair on my head. > > > > I am trying. I am trying really, really bloody hard. But as I write this, > > she's been put away for the evening (I'll get to that routine shortly) and > > she's screaming bloody murder and it does my head in. Maybe the evening > > Pet-ease will kick in soon. Wishful thinking? > > > > Tonight I had to go out. This was one of our better moments. I had several > > meetings and I was gone for eight hours. I took her for a walk before hand > - > > 20 minutes to get rid of some of the excess energy. We did some very basic > > reward based training when she came back. I gave her a toy. She settled > > down. Then there was about 30 seconds of howling. Than she settled down > > again and was fine. Granted, I'd dosed her with Pet-Ease prior to our walk > > > I did not put her away right before I left. I did this about an hour prior > > so that being put in the hallway was not associated with my leaving. I > still > > walked back and forth. When I did leave, it was without ceremony. No > > goodbye. No see you later. That's just stupid. And it would only make > things > > worse. > > > > I came home - she starts howling. I don't react. I don't go to see her. I > > take care of other things first - turn some lights on, feed the other dog, > > let the cat in, put my stuff down, use the loo, put on something > > comfortable. When she stops, I go over, make her sit, put on her collar, > > grab a flashlight and go for a very brief pack walk - it's dark. I'm in > the > > mountains. There are animals here that would happily make either of us > > dinner, so a long, exhausting walk isn't an option. I'd have gone for a > > proper long haul if I thought it was safe. As it is, I am now taking her > for > > 30-40 minutes in the morning and 30-40 minutes in the evening. 15-20 in > the > > afternoon. As I said - high energy dog. She desperately needs the exercise > > > And I like walking. Hugely adverse to my usual daily routine. But it's > good > > for her. So I do it. Happily. Especially if it saves my ears some anguish > > later. > > > > We come back inside. I move her to the bathroom. We do some basic reward > > training (routine - see?). And I want her to associate the bathroom with > > good things and a positive, calm mental state. Also, I can hide her > > medication and an evening dose (1/2 tablet) of Pet-Ease in a reward. While > > she is calm, I pick her up - still in the bathroom - and give her some > > affection. Than she's put on the floor. I wait. so that putting her down > > isn't associated with leaving. She grabs a toy. I slip out. Within seconds > > she's howling. She's still howling. It's ear piercing, head splitting. > > > > This is not a good advertisement for this dog. But hey, I'm sure there are > > plenty of people out there who would be more than happy to give her > exactly > > what she wants. I am not one of them. And I'm not entirely convinced that > I > > can outlast her. Or maybe there's someone more experienced out there who > can > > do right by her and properly rehabilitate her. > > > > I just don't have the experience. Nor am I the type of person to give in > to > > a dog for my own convenience. So...we've reached an impasse. I might be > able > > to outlast her and get her into the proper, happy dog mental state if I > > actually had people to help me. But on my own, she's just way too much for > > me. > > > > I'm going to keep reading Cesar. I'm going to keep working on the > dominance > > thing. And the separation anxiety thing. > > > > I think affection right before bed time is a BAD idea. This dog does not > do > > well with affection. Exercise. Discipline. Yes. Both in quantity. > Affection > > just seems to exacerbate the situation ten fold. At least affection in the > > way that people think of affection - the petting, the lap time. Every time > I > > spend lap time or petting time I end up with a worse situation than when I > > started. If I can actually get her to a stronger, more consistent > > calm-submissive state, than I will slowly reintroduce physical affection > (of > > the human variety). Until then...no go. Every time it I pick her up or pet > > her (not a corrective touch), it sets all of my little bits of progress > back > > three steps. > > > > She was screaming when I started writing this email. She is still > screaming. > > It was 11:31pm when I started. It's 12:40 right now. > > > > While some behaviors are getting better. For instance, she's doing much > much > > better on a leash. Others are getting worse. Some days she's fine. Some > > days...I get this. Long, long, long, bouts of screaming and howling and > > crying. This has been the worst to date. > > > > As I've said - I understand that she's been in an arguably traumatic > > situation and she probably didn't come from a great home life to begin > with. > > I understand that she is young. And I realize that we've been together > less > > than a week. But this only explains the behavior. It does not make it > > acceptable. And I do not think that her behavior will change without a lot > > more work. > > > > This isn't just an adjustment issue. This is a behavioral problem. And > with > > a dog this unstable, and this high energy human pity would just make > things > > worse. There is no pity. Do I enjoy hearing her scream? No. I hate that > > she's so mentally off. I want her to find balance. We are working on that. > > > > > Please, please help. I am at my wits end. At this point - lots of exercise > > and relatively rigid discipline are the only answers I can think of. And > > withholding the 'human' means of affection. No petting. NO lap time. We > can > > do dog things like reward training. We will not do human things like > petting > > until this howling nonsense is nipped in the bud or she's found a home > with > > someone who likes having a shadow with four legs. > > > > I kind of feel like a horrible person for calling it quits. But I do not > > have the experience to handle these problems. I am really concerned I may > > inadvertently make them worse. I only have enough experience not to give > > into them. I just wish I knew better how to correct them. > > > > -Autumn > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > We are now on Facebook! Join today! > > > > http://www.facebook.com/groups/chihuahuasclubYahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ We are now on Facebook! Join today! http://www.facebook.com/groups/chihuahuasclubYahoo! 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