The issue here is WSC and EMK. WSC made a deal with one devil and EMK quite another. One may ascribe whatever motives fit the slant. But, in the final analysis, I believe WSC made the best deal possible under the circumstances. And, I believe, RR did the same. If motive is relevant then EMK comes up much on the shorter end of the stick, be it WSC or RR on the other end.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Stan A. Orchard" <[email protected]> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:55:26 To: <[email protected]> Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC and EMK If the memo is genuine and accurate then it would seem that, in this instance, Edward Kennedy had more in common with Ronald Reagan than with Winston Churchill. Reagan, as I recall, was negotiating with the Iranians before he became President to have the American hostages released only after he had been sworn into office. Reagan later sold or traded them weapons. If the Kennedy memo is true then partisan advantage was perhaps one of the prime motivations in both instances. The closest parallel that comes to mind with respect to Churchill's unilateral actions is the 'naughty document' discussion with Stalin, which was seemingly less motivated by domestic political advantage than by Churchill's attempt to secure a gentleman's agreement with Stalin that would keep Greece out of the post-war Eastern Bloc and limit to varying degrees the Soviet influence elsewhere. It also seems to me dubious that such high-level Soviet memos would have been so easily accessed. How do you sort out the information from the disinformation when it emerges from a secrecy obsessed espionage agency? Stan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Smith, James M" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 10:02 AM Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC and EMK You are giving credence to a KGB operative's version of a meeting with a "friend" of Kennedy as Kennedy's actual view?! You don't know if the meeting even really occurred, much less whether it faithfully reflects Kennedy's mind. Probably the first time this chat has treated a KGB memo as gospel. James M. Smith -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Johan Arve Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC and EMK On the topic of comparing WSC to Ted Kennedy, I really wonder if WSC would've suggested to Hitler that they cooperate so that WSC would be able to replace Chamberlain as PM of Great Britain: "Picking his way through the Soviet archives that Boris Yeltsin had just thrown open, in 1991 Tim Sebastian, a reporter for the London Times, came across an arresting memorandum. Composed in 1983 by Victor Chebrikov, the top man at the KGB, the memorandum was addressed to Yuri Andropov, the top man in the entire USSR. The subject: Sen. Edward Kennedy. On 9-10 May of this year," the May 14 memorandum explained, "Sen. Edward Kennedy's close friend and trusted confidant [John] Tunney was in Moscow." (Tunney was Kennedy's law school roommate and a former Democratic senator from California.) "The senator charged Tunney to convey the following message, through confidential contacts, to the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Y. Andropov." Kennedy's message was simple. He proposed an unabashed quid pro quo. Kennedy would lend Andropov a hand in dealing with President Reagan. In return, the Soviet leader would lend the Democratic Party a hand in challenging Reagan in the 1984 presidential election. "The only real potential threats to Reagan are problems of war and peace and Soviet-American relations," the memorandum stated. "These issues, according to the senator, will without a doubt become the most important of the election campaign." Kennedy made Andropov a couple of specific offers. First he offered to visit Moscow. "The main purpose of the meeting, according to the senator, would be to arm Soviet officials with explanations regarding problems of nuclear disarmament so they may be better prepared and more convincing during appearances in the USA." Kennedy would help the Soviets deal with Reagan by telling them how to brush up their propaganda. Then he offered to make it possible for Andropov to sit down for a few interviews on American television. "A direct appeal ... to the American people will, without a doubt, attract a great deal of attention and interest in the country. ... If the proposal is recognized as worthy, then Kennedy and his friends will bring about suitable steps to have representatives of the largest television companies in the USA contact Y.V. Andropov for an invitation to Moscow for the interviews. ... The senator underlined the importance that this initiative should be seen as coming from the American side." Kennedy would make certain the networks gave Andropov air time--and that they rigged the arrangement to look like honest journalism. Kennedy's motives? "Like other rational people," the memorandum explained, "[Kennedy] is very troubled by the current state of Soviet-American relations." But that high-minded concern represented only one of Kennedy's motives. "Tunney remarked that the senator wants to run for president in 1988," the memorandum continued. "Kennedy does not discount that during the 1984 campaign, the Democratic Party may officially turn to him to lead the fight against the Republicans and elect their candidate president." http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/ted-kennedy-soviet-union-ronald-reagan-opinions-columnists-peter-robinson.html?feed=rss_popstories On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Joe Hern<[email protected]> wrote: > > A new thread: Edward Moore Kennedy and Winston Leonard Spencer > Churchill > > As a Churchillian, and a man from Massachusetts who proudly wears a PT > 109 tie clasp, I can't help but see parallels between my late senator > for most of my life and WSC. > > The scenes at the JFK Library in Boston of ordinary folk waiting in > line over three hours to pass the bier are reminiscent of 1965. Due > to popular demand, viewing was extended past the scheduled time; another > parallel. > > I hear that the British and the Irish P.M.s are to attend Senator > Kennedy's rites tomorrow, as are the current U.S. president (whose > election owes a great deal to the endorsements of Senator Kennedy and > his niece Caroline) and three out of four living ex-presidents. > > I was privileged to witness yesterday the cortege drive through the > streets of Boston - the Kennedy stronghold - and to sail today close to > the John F. > Kennedy Library (coming about before the posted Coast Guard pickets > could challenge us!). > > The most striking parallel is that EMK was the master of, and a great > lover of, the U.S. Senate just as WSC was the master of the House of > Commons. > Today's New York Times reports an example of this: that Senator > Kennedy arranged for Robert Caro, the LBJ biographer, to address > senators about the traditions of the Senate. But for the equally > esteemed Senator Byrd, Senator Kennedy would be known as the father of the > Senate. > > I invite commentary not on Senator Kennedy's politics but on his role > as a parliamentarian, a lover of his legislative house and his > obsequies, vis a vis those characteristics in Winston Churchill. > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
