If I may ask, why exactly is it a good thing that people can pass the lab with just books, lab gear, and groupstudy, without ever having touched a production network in his life? This kind of thing is precisely the enabler of all these lab-rat CCIE's that are starting to seriously water down the prestige of the program.
""Keyur Shah"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > To add onto it...experience helps you support such networks and high profile > web sites and enterprise networks in real time, where downtime is counted in > minutes and sometimes in seconds. It is impossible to do clear ip bgp * and > get your bgp routes which one may do all the time while preparing in a home > lab. > > In my personal opinion, today it is possible to pass ccie lab by simply > studying in home lab with all the help from books, lab workbooks, bootcamps, > home lab and group studies out there, which is very good thing. I am sure, > it was not the case in 1998 when Paul B. (taking him as a example only) > passed his test. I think cisco should remove some of the old technologies > from the lab and add some of these cool real world scenarios to a reasobale > extent that John mentioned below. May be have candidates log to syslog and > ask them that they can not type clear ip bgp more than twice in the whole > lab. That will make candidates think from real world angle. That is just an > example, many such things come to mind. > > Impressive article John, you described ccie's day in real world very well. > > -Keyur Shah- > CCIE# 4799 (Security; Routing and Switching) > css1,scsa,scna,mct,mcse,cni,mcne > Hello Computers > "Say Hello to Your Future!" > http://www.hellocomputers.com > Toll-Free: 1.877.794.3556 > "Now offering CCIE Security Lab Workbook and remote bootcamp, > http://www.hellocomputers.com/hellosuccess.html"; > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Neiberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:25 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Long....RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > After receiving an email from Joe, I would agree that he sounds like a very > intelligent person with tremendous initiative. I'd like to differentiate > between lab experience and OTJ experience. > > Learning to configure OSPF, EIGRP, and BGP at home is one thing. > > Going to a customer site who has 200 nodes, half of which were acquired from > another company and are running OSPF while half are running EIGRP and all > areas need to be able to communicate with each other and also have multiple > redundant and area-diverse connections to different internet providers using > BGP...that is experience. :-) > > Then, after a decision has been made to use a single IGP, make a choice > between EIGRP and OSPF, or even IS-IS. Justify your reasoning and then > determine a migration plan that minimizes customer downtime and guarantees > that all areas have internet access at all times even if their local > provider goes down. > > Help the customer to coordinate with ARIN and service providers to get the > necessary address space and an assigned autonomous system number. > > When a given area has multiple connections to the same ISP, attempt to > influence routing in the ISP so that it takes the closest entrance into your > network for that user. Attempt to influence routing within each ISP so that > you increase the chances that optimal routing will occur. > Make certain that you only advertise the necessary prefixes while filtering > all others. Configure routing within each area to take the closet exit > possible, within reason. > > Provision and order the necessary circuits after getting quotes from several > providers. Make a determination when and if point to point links > could/should be used and where frame relay or ATM would be most suitable. > Make sure that you have plenty of room for growth and enough bandwidth to > support video conferencing over IP for certain sections of this network. > Determine which type of traffic shaping, queueing, and/or rate limiting > might be necessary and where it would be most useful. > > Upgrade routers and switches as necessary, making sure that you won't run > into processor limitations during high traffic loads and you have enough WIC > and NM slots available to support the connections you require. Make sure > you select an IOS that supports those modules and software features you'll > need....while minimizing the number of bugs that might affect you. > > Determine a backup plan for each area and include ISDN backup links, making > sure the backup links can pass both IP, IPX, and some DLSw+ but do not pass > streaming video and other non-essential traffic. Create a network > infrastructure disaster recovery plan for each area and document your > procedures. > > And that's just the tip of the iceberg, and *that's* what I mean by > experience. Certainly, your experience doesn't need to be this > comprehensive and detailed, I'm simply exaggerating to make a point. > There is a *huge* difference between learning to configure this stuff at > home and actually implementing it in the real world. > > Granted, this would be a huge task but it's one that a CCIE along with a > group of engineers would be expected to be able to handle. A CCIE--even a > highly intelligent and motivated one--with no experience would have > difficulty with this. > > John > > >>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 2/4/02 10:23:37 AM >>> > I have to jump in here. The original post said he had an impressive lab. If > he uses the lab and works through scenarios, isn't this what the rest of you > are calling experience. He doesn't get paid to do it, but he probably would > end up with more experience than some of the people that we all work with > collecting a pay check. > > IMHO > Dean Whitley > > p.s. > > Joe, from the sounds of your post and initiative to achieve all those certs, > I think a company would be foolish to not hire someone like you. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:10 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Marshal, > > I totally agree, I dont think it's impossible for a candidate to pass > without real-world hands-on experience. IMHO the program is actually quite > a bit harder now, than it was a couple years ago. The program DID start as a > way to test for hands-on experience, but the program has gone a different > direction in the past couple years. > > There's such a wide/diverse and focused consulting/implementation field, I > think it would be extremely difficult to focus on testing "hands-on." > There > would have to be 30+ different CCIE specialization programs (with a much > larger variety of hardware/software differences used for each specialization > as well). It would be an administrative nightmare for Cisco to administer > such a program. > > -Brad Ellis > CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) > Network Learning Inc > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net > CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: > http://www.ccbootcamp.com/quicklinks.html > > ""Marshal Schoener"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > I disagree. > > There is not a Cisco test, nor any technical test for that matter > that a > > person can't pass with a whole lot of studying and some lab time. > > > > Yes the CCIE lab is extremely difficult. But to say it's impossible > to > pass > > without 'real world' experience is just wrong. > > > > Regards, > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:09 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > Is there such > > "D CCIE with no experience" > > I highly doubt that ladies and gents, The whole point of a CCIE Lab > is to > > prove the experience you have gained in the field and how you go > about > > building and troubleshooting a network. > > Friends of mine that are good engineers with extensive experience > failed > > the exam first time. > > The amount of time you get in the lab exam gives you no time to refer > back > > to the documentation cd or to even think to hard!, you have to know > exactly > > what to do and how to do it and you have to do as fast as you > possibly > > can. > > Anyone that has attempted the lab knows how draining it is both > physically > > and especially mentally. It is not easy! > > For those of us attempting the lab and for those that have already > achieved > > there numbers we know we cannot do it without hands on and a good > > troubleshooting base. Good Luck > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:22 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go > back > > to building race cars. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work > experience. 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