Doc: I certainly don't intend to pigeonhole Irish music as strictly peasant music. What I mean is that the old Irish aristocarcy almost ceased to exist by the 18th C and that the social system that supported the old bards, their music etc. had also vanished. The indigenous music of the irish people almost went underground to some degree and survived in the peasant classes.
I don't know the price differences between a fiddle, flute or guittar in the 18th C but let's look at this: yes, there is evidence of fiddles, flutes, etc being used in Irish music in the 17 & 18th centuries. The last of the old Irish bardic harpists had vanished by the end of the 18th C. and harsp were later revived by the set of people that included the likes of Yeats, lady Gregory, etc. I would doubt that many (if any) of the Irish peasantry would have been able to afford a harp! Considering they were barely surviving at all. There is evidence of fiddles, flutes, etc being used by the "lower" classes in Ireland. IS there ANY evidence that guittars were used by them? Not to my knowledge. If there is, fine. Otherwise, I rest my case. Sobell is a simplistic example. Johnny Moynihan is another. It's true that bouzoukis, mandolas, guittarras, etc began turning up in the 60s. But there is no evidence that I know of that suggests that they were used in Irish music before that. There is nothing to suggest that guittars or citterns were used in Ireland by anyone other than the more well to do before the 1960's. Again, there is no evidence that lutes, mandoras, etc were used in indigenous Irish music. Some may have been used in the houses of the Norman/Irish, but there is nothing to suggest that they were used by the native Irish. Can we talk about something else now? Brad --- doc rossi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > we also know Irish emigrants to the USA during the > 1920s (and possibly > > earlier) picked up > > the US banjo and used it in much the same rather > idiomatic way. Was > > that > > something they thought of after crossing the pond > or was it an > > adaptation of traditions from their home country > to a new environment? > > Italian mandolinists in the US started using the > banjo, too, because it > was louder or projected more. > > > in the Irish, where the bouzouki is more prevalent > > Now, lad, just what would ya be meanin' by dat? > > Seriously, I'd like to know what you think the > difference is - scale > length? number of courses? flat back vs. round? All > that stuff about > Sobel I would take with a grain of salt, too. I > pinned him down about > it once but don't feel it's appropriate to go into > that here. > > The use of these instruments in folk/pop groups in > ireland goes back to > the 60s at least - at least that's as far back as > I've been able to > find them. Mandolas and such had a sweeter sound > than banjo or mandolin > - not so sharp and biting and maybe more suitable > for accompaniment > than even a guitar. They certainly looked cool. > > I've been thinking about what Brad was saying about > Irish music being > peasant music, more or less. I don't know about > that; it seems a bit > lopsided. Also, Brad, would you be saying that a > guittar cost more > than a fiddle or flute, or would Irish music only be > songs and mouth > music? And how much would a harp or set of pipes > cost? I tend to see > things in big pictures and maybe miss some details, > but for me, "Irish > music", like citterns, isn't just one thing. Also, > I wouldn't say > something had less value only because it came from > one class and not > another - I know Brad doesn't intend to say that > either, but bringing > class into it does fog things up a bit. > > As to what Frank was saying about the long history > of plucked strings > in dance music, it's just a fact that shouldn't be > overlooked - lute, > guitar, cittern, mandora were used to play all sorts > of music by all > sorts of people. History being what it was (there > he goes bringing > class into it again), our present knowledge of what > went on is limited > to what and whom historians thought was important or > noteworthy, > decisions often based in large part on their own > experience. This is > often my main complaint about the articles in Grove, > for example. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
