Not really so much of a problem I think. Using the 'flattish back and wire strings' loose definition of a Cittern, this makes a Mandola a type of Cittern. Put it another way, a Mandola is a member of the Cittern family - or so it might seem. Of course, Mandola is a 'family' in itself - one which includes Mandolin. So, Mandola is a sort of 'sub-family' if Cttern, and Cittern is a sort of 'super family' which includes Mandola. Anyone agree ? So far, so reasonably good, but here's a nice one: How about those Mandolas and Mandolins which don't have flattish backs but have round backs instead ? They don't fit in with the 'flattish back' concept so they can't really be citterns - right ? This leads me to suggest that Mandolas (including Mandolins) and CIterns are both families of instruments which overlap in some cases. If you like, they are what mathematicians might call 'overlapping sets'. So, where does this get us ? Well, probably nowhere ! As regards the Bouzouki, to me a Bouzouki will always be a long-necked round-backed instrument played in Greek Islands for people to dance to on warm summer's evenings. That thing the Irish play is really a Mandola - they've just got the name wrong. Kevin. Brad McEwen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi: ah,yes. Therein lies the crux of the problem. Is it a cittern because it looks like one or is it a mandola because it's tuned like one? I like Doc's idea of citterns not being any one instrument bur rather a braod family. Mayb even the criteria should in fact be vague. Brad
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In einer eMail vom 28.10.2006 20:32:32 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If we are going to include the English Guittar and Portugese Guittara as Citterns then I feel we should also include flat-back Mandolas and Mandolins, I agree. A while back in this discussion somebody put foreward that the common features of a Cittern were a flattish back and wire strings. If the above are to hold true, then the awkwardly-named 'Irish Bouzouki' should also be included as a type of Cittern, shouldn't it ? Kevin, I think you've fallen prey to the "Snapshot View" of instrument development. Remember that the original GDAE-tuned mandolin was the Neapoitan, which (like earlier mandolin types) is a lute-buiilt instrument, and that the "Irish bouzouki" is a variant of the Greek bouzouki (same number of courses, same scale length, same variability of tuning), which is also a lute-built instrument. So, from the point of view of their inception and development, flat-back mandolins and Irish bouzoukis are in fact lute-type instruments that have adopted one feature that is typical of the citterns - the flat back. One could argue that the flat back of the Irish bouzouki is more infliuenced by the ubiquitous guitar than by the obsolete cittern! It's also good to remember that the Greek bouzouki (as played in Greece) also has a number of different tunings associated with it. Cheers, John D. --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
