Dear Barbara, You made many valid points in your post. Yes, the founders of the Cavalier used crossbreeding to bring back the longer nose. Many believe Ann's Son to be the product of a Papillon x English Toy (King Charles) mating. There were numerous matings that were done by the founders that were not reported as crossbreedings, but actually were. I'm sure that this is one reason for the color standard being "all colors recognised" until 1973. At that time, they probably felt that they had what they needed and further crossbreedings were unnecessary so they went back to the four recognized King Charles colors.
Actually, the bottleneck in the gene pool which eventually caused the MVD problem was probably due to World War II when so many of the English dogs were put down due to food rationing and shortages. A very small handful of studs survived to regenerate the breed. Although it wasn't called MVD, "heart troubles" were known as early as the 1940s and 1950s. It isn't necessary to crossbreed to reduce the incidence of MVD since we do have 'oldies' lines in the Cavalier and can breed away from the heart defects while staying in Cavalier bloodlines. In fact, crossbreeding will only bring hybrid vigor for that first generation of offspring. After that, the defective genes brought in from other breeds will greatly add to the troubles of a conscientious breeder. Poodles are well-known to have multiple defects-- many more than breeders have to worry about with Cavaliers. The basic idea is similar to hybrid plants. The seed saved from a hybrid plant is nothing like the first generation hybrid in vigor or production. I wouldn't worry too much about this breeder. This will fade away as do so many other "bright" ideas that people have, particularly when she gets to the second and third generation when all those unhealthy recessives start matching up again. All the best, Susan Cochran ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. Bond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:21 AM Subject: [CKCS-L] Cavalier (mutts) "The chocolate gene came through Ttiweh originally as Amice Pitt used many different breeds when she was trying to get the long nose back." I didn't realize that their was a chocolate gene either but I knew that realistically to bring back the long noses in such a short time that there would have to be crossbreds. I guess Mrs Pitt would have been breeding mutts. There are NO true purebreds except maybe wild dogs and I wouldn't be so sure about them anymore. Wolves have been known to crossbreed with domesticated dogs. We all know the reason that we can not eliminate MVD from cavaliers is because the gene pool is closed and there fore we cannot introduce new blood into the lines. If one looks at the basis of this woman's argument there is some good reasoning on breeding. Now I don't agree with this woman on trying to pass these crossbreds as purebreds or ursurping the name of 'cavalier' to give credence to her new breed, but if you are talking genetic improvement, she's not off base. I also don't agree that these dogs are without genetic faults. That would be totlally unrealistic.They probably do not have enough significant numbers and the disease incidences would not be monitored because it is not a recognized breed (except maybe in her mind). In fact by crossbreeding, she may have introduced more faults instead of reducing them. We often hear that crossbreds are healthier than purebreds . That may be true because the genes for diseases are hidden rather than expresssed. It doesn't mean they are not there. There are also guidelines for introducing new breeds. Anyone can take on the challenge of developing a new breed of any animal as long as careful records are kept and there are a number of years in which the animal must breed true to be considered as purebred. I don't know the number of years involved but I know it is considerable. Then there are applications that have to be made and investigation of the breed... a lengthy process.A lifetime. You may not like the message and you may think the messenger is despicable but there is some sound reasoning behind this. If she were really upfront about this she would detail the breeding behind her 'new' breed and she would do genetic testing. She would aslo not be selling them for $600. That's where she loses credibility. She has reduced herself to another Cocky-poo breeder. I believe ( shoot me down if you like) that if cavalier breeders, many years ago, when the MVD had come apparent, had realized what a problem it would become for a lovely breed, they could have chosen to go out of the breed and introduce new blood to eradicate the problem. Unfortunately closed registries did not allow this. A final thought: I can't help but imagine about the talk that must have gone on, back in the days of bringing back the 'old type' cavalier. I'm sure Mrs. Pitt would have had burning ears. IMO Barbara Bond =================== "Magic Commands": to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=T%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL to start it up gain click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=T%20CKCS-L%20MAIL E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. 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