Reply to Shawn, (sorry, decided to leave off diplomatic and go for blunt - very
long list)
Ron, it seems you have a vision for CLUG. That's all that is needed at
times. A vision can sometimes be a magical thing that provides razor
like focus, and attract others.
As a past Prez, I have seen this many times. The CLUG members are
fantastic people who really do want to help out. But it takes a clear
focus/direction and some good delegation skills. A number of the
members want to help, but don't see how (or don't want a greater
leadership role) until someone can ask them to do JobX, with enough
detail to make the job clear.
The danger I've also seen crop up many times is members being "expected"
to fill certain roles or take on specific tasks. It is one thing if
they volunteer themselves, it is another if the expectation is one sided.
I see in your post the potential for both points to occur. So balance
is the key, IMO.
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>>> Shawn, you seem to be making more out of what is there than I put there. I
>>> would never expect anyone to take up an idea of mine without EVERYTHING
>>> being crystal clear before hand....in fact, one of the things about me that
>>> seems to annoy people is my attention to details (except spelling :). I
>>> was merely mentioning ideas - as stated - because I didn't think it to be
>>> the time or place for writing a short book. Bit of a waste of time if no
>>> one is interested in the idea enough to get details about it in the first
>>> place. Appreciate your insights though. -Ron-
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Some of your ideas will require revisions of the
bylaws, I think. But that is not really a difficult task either - just
an administrative thing.
--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> I was over the bylaws with a fine tooth comb and saw no conflicts with
>>> items I suggested but may have missed a small point. (Section 3 para 6 and
>>> consider that you don't have most of the required info to make a
>>> determination if your referring to 'contests'-gifts or donations would have
>>> been used as prizes and fall under the wording of the bylaw as to purpose)
>>> Your right though, any minor points can be cleared up by amending the
>>> bylaws in a small way...an administrative task at a meeting.
I had in mind to have the bylaws amended (if agreed upon) at the first
opportunity as a few members (including Mel) could attest to as I detailed
processes to them which included the assumption the members would be allowed to
vote at all meetings. My problem at this point is that there seems to be six or
seven places (depending on definitions) where the bylaws are currently being
outright ignored - clearly in violation. Some of the current? executive MAY
have a Tier Two membership but a couple of us cannot seem to find ANY other
Tier Two members .... so my curiosity is nagging at me .... how have they been
achieving a quorum at all. Apparently, fees have not been collected for quite
some time from anyone that I have heard from yet (merely mentioning according
to the available data at this time). (See #10 below as well)
-Ron-
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Regardless - that sort of vision, and someone with the will to make it
happen and assume the various risks in doing so is exactly what the
group needs in my eyes. So far, you seem to be the best (or at least
most vocal) candidate in that area.
There have been other changes in my life as well recently which prevent
me from taking a larger part than a list lurker. I'm not sure if my own
interests are aligned with the group's anymore, and meetings on weekday
evenings are not convenient for me. So I'm afraid I'll continue to be a
list lurker and offer help when/where I can. I do hope to see the group
continue though, and may be able to offer the next exec some contacts to
help out.
Watching the conversation with great interest.
Shawn
------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Well, Shawn, help is exactly what I am needing and cannot seem to find it
>>> no matter to whom I query. Perhaps you could help me with some of these
>>> questions.....
1) Who actually owns the domain name 'clug.ca'? The club, or Wordpress, the
webhosting agency? If the hosting service was being provided free of charge
(couldn't get that answered either!), they (Wordpress)may actually own the
Domain Name. There has been a president established in that regard. If that
is the case, it represents a very serious problem when looking at the prospect
of 'growing' the club. Very serious!
2) What type of agreement does Clug have with Wordpress and (wondering if this
is the point you mentioned not being in agreement with bylaws or not but...)
does it permit the use or placement of 'outside' or 'non-associated' trademarks
in a visible location of the page. This would actually have nothing to do with
the bylaws so I am guessing you were referring to something else but it is the
single point I mentioned in the ideas I was not really certain about as it
involves a contractual agreement that I could have no way of determining in
advance. Section 3, paragraph 6 of the bylaws might address this but again, it
depends upon exact definitions.
3) Why could you not have made sure that your email address was part of the
header as it is for almost everyone else? :) I would rather ask these
questions in private but ...what can I say....I am only one person (but not the
only one)...that isn't getting many answers. (besides, this way, this too can
be Cc'd to the CUUG executive!)
4) Why is the Treasurer the only person apparently able to take membership fees
while it clearly states in the bylaws that this is the responsibility of the
Secretary (unless they are not present at which point someone else is appointed
the task but has the Secretary not been present at most meetings and if so, why
were (3.5.e)-(4.1) and (9.0) not utilized to address this) ?
5) The President is responsible for consistency of order, policies and
procedures as well as providing guidance. In many registered non-profits the
size of this one, the Secretary is actually the most important member of the
Executive. So, my question is, who exactly is Winson (Name on web page)and why
is there no way to contact him except at a meeting (if he is there)? He was,
apparently, at the last attempt at the AGM but, despite the fact the bylaws say
it is his job to take memberships, no memberships could be accepted because Kin
was not there. Do you think that is as strange as I do?
6) Why are addresses not taken for Tier Two members ("....no way to contact him
if he doesn't answer his emails!") when it says this is a requirement in the
bylaws? The Executive would have had the right to contact them so there would
not have been a privacy issue involved.
7) Why was it not possible for at least two prospective new members at two
different times to find out how many Tier Two members there are in the group?
8) Over the years, I have been a member of four non-profits, two of which I was
a member of the Executive board. Unless the government and banking rules have
changed since I was made a signatory, two signatories are required for a bank
account for a non-profit of this size. Aside from the Treasurer, the second is
usually the founding member or a current board member. My question at this
point is, does the Clug actually have a second signatory? (I do nothing
without some sort of reason and this is no different. The reason for asking
this question is the next query in this list.)
9) In more than four weeks, why have (from what I could discern) at least three
prospective new members not been offered the opportunity to pay membership
fees? I am now currently attempting to do the same along with a few others and
to date, have remained unable to achieve this function or even be placed in
contact with anyone that can. Why? ("placed in contact" refers to two way
communication)
10) When Tier Two members have only two opportunities to vote (at AGM and SGM
but usually only once a year at AGM) (1.1.b) and Tier One members have only
what can best be described as a passive, observational presence at monthly
meetings, why is the Executive distressed at not being able to accomplish much
and the Tier One Members seem to be controlling the vocalizations involved with
determining club direction in most of the list postings? Have Tier One Members
been voting on issues or otherwise having a say at the monthly meetings?
These, and others I have not mentioned, could be addressed and corrected.....
except that the only folks that seem to be interested enough to do so are not
able to do so. A couple are getting the feeling that the fate of the group has
already been decided but we are not being told. Some are also getting the
impression that the current members don't want the sort of changes this would
imply. I expected to generate considerable response with that posting but ....
perhaps the mention of increased division between Tier one and two scared them?
What conclusions would you arrive at coming in from the outside as a new or
prospective new member?
One other thing that I am finding very curious .... CUUG has been mentioned in
a few of the posts .... I too am a member of that group but I find the
assortment of messages that are selected and Cc'd to a specific member of that
executive rather curious. Given that he could be a member to CLUG's mailing
list the same as Joe Blo from New York, that is rather a strange occurrence.
Good thing I am not the naturally suspicious type, especially since I sent that
very person an email a few days back and have never heard back from him. Why,
in fact, I was on the phone with someone on Friday and mentioned that I noticed
someone had done that ... he never mentioned the fact that he did it as
well.... intentionally avoided it and changed the topic .... I'm still too
trusting, you know! Always seem to get bitten. Same person I made a point of
mentioning I had a thing about honesty. Go figure .... but that's OK ... I
believe in Karma
I had it in my mind that the group had the potential to achieve International
recognition. I have already attempted to communicate this previously
undisclosed goal to your treasurer ..... I am currently having doubts as to
whether or not I will hear back from him at all. Out of five emails I have
sent him since becoming involved with your group, I have yet to receive a reply
on any of them. If he had been at the last AGM attempt, you would have had a
few new Tier Two members. I wonder. I hope that he isn't deathly ill or had
to deal with a serious personal emergency ... but I am inclined to consider
that this is not the likely situation. It was made known on the lists that new
folks were looking to join.
Thoughts about getting this group to Internationally recognized status is now
the furthest thing from my mind, Shawn. At this point it would seem to be a
monumental task just getting through the next four weeks (presuming the choice
is even still available) and one I have been hearing positive things from have
just left everything in my hands for two of those four weeks. NOT
There may not be a treasurer (in fact) and the Vice Prez has announced he is
stepping down ..... not even sure about the secretary's thoughts about all of
this .... something I read in the deep dark past about a sinking ship comes to
mind..... Ten active people would be needed to merely operate legally (eight
for AGM quorum and two will not make it to meeting at any point) ...... might
be easier to start a new group with a different name (not my idea originally in
point of fact) ........ but ..... NOT
A rather large number of the messages seem to contain similar themes... how
they all think this group is a great idea ... but they think it is a waste of
their time to take part personally .... two or three hours a month out of 720
is way to valuable to spend doing something that they think is a good idea.
Tell me Shawn. Honest opinion. If you had answers to most of the above, what
would you do?
I will understand if you don't reply.
Aside from home and work needs to attend to, working out, designing and
building mechanical devices to attach to my telescope, teaching myself acoustic
and electric guitar (not just that easy strumming chords stuff), I have two
books I am obligated to complete. Guess what I am going to do?
Again, I will understand if you don't reply.
Why should I waste my time on people that don't want to 'waste' theirs?
Say goodbye to the group folks ... but somehow, I get the feeling that was the
intended goal for a few.
Ron
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