Re: Stus-List Bigger Boat Question

[Dr. Mark Bodnar]

Stevan, Thanks for the feedback.  I'm looking at similar decisions so good to hear how it has worked for you. I've got to get out at see a couple of 30's, 32's, 33's and 34's that are available within a relatively short drive from here.  I like the quarter birth as it adds a the extra bed for kids, but I need to look at how much galley counter space is lost in exchange. I'm happy to tinker with the boat, but certainly don't want a make work project - I have too many of those already! Thanks everyone for the thoughts, all the advice is helping me figure out the right (or best guess) direction. Mark --------------------- Dr. Mark Bodnar B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C) Bedford Chiropractic www.bedfordchiro.ca --------------------- There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval. - George Santayana On 04/06/2013 10:31 AM, Stevan Plavsa wrote: Also, I'm going to go against some of the recommendations .. the creature comforts, hot water, head, etc .. on an old boat these systems will be old and likely need updating (some of them can be downright gross!). Unless they have been updated recently I wouldn't put a lot of value on old equipment. I replaced the head, holding tank, thru-hulls, knot/depth, stereo, speakers and all hoses on my boat after I bought it. I didn't want someone else's toilet and the holding tank was stainless steel, a problem waiting to happen. Now I have all new stuff and I didn't pay a premium for a boat that had old stuff, or stuff I didn't want. One thing that's nice to have on a used boat however is new sails. New sails are expensive! I guess I've split my considerations into "fundamental" sailboat systems (rig, sails, deck, motor, etc) and secondary, (water, toilet, cooking, etc). As long as the fundamental stuff is A1 don't sweat the other stuff, it's pretty easy to update most of that stuff... and then it's "your's". Have a look at the 32s. If you aren't racing they are a good buy. Even if you are racing, some people seem to do well with them. They are a good value in terms of size for the money.... and a pretty boat to boot. Steve Suhana, C&C 32 Toronto On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 9:19 AM, Stevan Plavsa <stevanpla...@gmail.com> wrote: I just went through this .. I had a Mirage 24. I think I'm younger than a lot of the listers here .. I'm not married, and I don't have kids. I do however, have a girlfriend, we live together and we sail together. I got her into sailing and she loves it, we call it "our boat". My requirements might be different than yours but first and foremost, I wanted the best boat for the money and a boat I would keep for a while, I'm not interested in changing boats every few years. This meant a boat that was in good shape and the biggest I could afford. I was originally looking at C&C 27s but people want a lot of money for those (comparatively), then 30's and the story was the same there .. I went to look at a C&C 32 on a whim, the ad had been on yachtworld for a long time so I thought what the hell, it's worth looking at .. most of the boats I had driven around to look at up to that point proved to be a waste of time and gas, this one was close by! I fell in love right away, like instantly. It was a bigger boat than I was planning on buying but it was in great shape. The first boat I looked at that had a completely dry deck. It does have an atomic 4. My thinking there was, better a well cared for 30 year old gasser than a poorly maintained 30 year old diesel. Either way, with an old boat comes an old motor and gas or diesel you'll likely encounter problems. The A4 equipped boats sell for less, which was attractive to me in my case. I'm a tinkerer and the Moyer Marine website has all the info and parts you'll ever need to keep an A4 running. I got the boat for less than 20k. Of course, I've spent a considerable amount updating it, but I'm happy with the boat and I love it. I like the C&C 30s as well but they are an older design and lack the quarter birth, which was something I found attractive in the 32, they are similar boats in a few ways though. The looks thing is important and I'll echo what another poster said .. you better think your's is the most beautiful boat in the anchorage.  Good luck with the search. Steve Suhana, C&C 32 Toronto On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com> wrote: A gentleman who had sailed an Endeavor 37 repeatedly to South America, cautioned my wife and I to stay below 35 feet.  He explained that in his opinion over that and the systems and maintenance become unwieldy.  He further explained that many of the "boat show" boats jam 3 berths and two heads into a 37 or 38 footer.  And over 40, that layout becomes the norm.  Additionally, those spaces can be cramped at best.  If you want a head make sure you can actually use it.  How much can it hold?  Is it configured such that you could use it underway?  Does it provide enough privacy?  Some are just glorified buckets, stowed in a closet or under the v-berth, surrounded by a curtain (if you're lucky).  Same problem with the shower.  Many designs require you to shower with the pull-out sink faucet while standing/sitting on the toilet and consequently getting the entire compartment wet.  Imagine how much better a single, larger, functional head, with separate enclosed shower would be.  Combine that with the fact that all the pipes, valves, and strainers for the second head double your maintenance costs. All of this translates, to some degree, to every space and system on board a boat.  12v fridge, radar, auto helm, chart plotter, vhf, water pump, bilge pump, vacu-flush, inverter, A/C, cabin heater, stereo, TV, satellite, stove, oven, microwave, grill, water heater, sailing instruments, DC charging (solar, wind, charger, alternator), anchor windlass, furlers (mainsail and headsail), powered winches, water maker, wind vane steering, dingy. Some things actually get easier as you get bigger.  Forcing a small boat to do a bigger boat's job can be difficult, costly, uncomfortable, and possibly unsafe. A bigger boat allows for larger batteries and charging system, larger tanks, better cooking systems, and better handling in bad weather.  I ran into a couple from the UK (Stef and Stewart - yatchmata...@blogspot.com) at a marine consignment shop who advised that the single best way to reduce your costs was to stay on the anchor instead of a marina and dingy into town.   They had sufficient tankage and were able to make enough water to go indefinitely.  They also had 12v refrigeration and solar/wind charging with enough battery capacity to go indefinitely.  While in inland waters their only limit was holding tank capacity, food stores, and diesel tank capacity. So, much like everyone else has said, it is far more important to focus on getting a boat that you will use because it fits your needs than to get one that stops getting used because it doesn't. I started with a MacGregor 26C.  A decent, cheap, and very simple boat that allowed us to grow into sailing without being overwhelmed.  After a 52 mile cruise up the bay with 3 nights stay in a marina we decided that further exploration was going to require a bigger boat.  We still have that boat and while we don't use it we also don't have any urgency to sell it. The bigger boat that we bought (C&C 37+) was chosen for a long list of reasons (and growing).  First was a PHRF of 75 (nimble boat), followed by interior accommodations (2 berths, 1 head w/enclosed shower), finished off by solid good looks.  As someone else kinda mentioned, it is nice to see your boat and be able say, "Boy that's a sharp looking boat!" The 37+ and 34+ models have a bit more race inspiration and may be a bit too tender for your family, though I personally would not hesitate.  For me the 38 Landfall would have been a close contender except for its higher PHRF (~141).  And from the sounds of it the 35/3 should have been on my short list.  Those are the models I would pursuit if I were in your shoes.  Don't let the size scare you away. Not to volunteer any of the other listers but I for one would gladly welcome the opportunity to show a potential buyer all of the reasons I bought my boat in person.  You could make a family vacation out of it by organizing a couple of different boat demos into the same week and nearby locations. Good luck on your search, Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD -- When security matters. http://www.secure-my-email.com On May 30, 2013 1:06 AM, "Chuck S" <cscheaf...@comcast.net> wrote: Good questions.  You'll do fine finding a good boat. I never had "two foot itis".  I started with a 13' Sunfish, to a Cape Dory 22', sold that and windsurfed for 15 yrs, and then fell in love with our present 36 footer, the 34R.  So much depends on what you want to do with the boat and how many new skills you want to learn.  If your whole family is cruising, be sure to consider them in the new boat decision.  Bigger boats cost more overall, a little more bottom paint, longer dock lines, higher slip fees, new sails, storage charges.  But many costs are the same, like the common items like new dishes or fire extinguishers, flares, dinghy, VHF, bilge pumps and head and electronics cost the same if you put them on a big boat or small boat.  The bigger boat can serve as a getaway/weekend home. My one tip: be more agressive as a buyer:  Get aboard some bigger boats.  Ask owners if they might consider letting you crew on bigger boats to see what they are like?  Offer to crew for a race, offer to bring beer or rum for a sail.  Ask them later if they might consider selling?   There are many owners who have enjoyed their boats and would love to sell but don't want to go through the emotional rollercoaster of selling through listings or a broker.    Size: Boathandling is fun to learn and demonstrate.  I learn tricks all the time.   Like how to set all the fenders and prep all docklines before I approach the dock, and docking single handed in cross winds, or in strong river current, and when to ask for help, and when not to ask for help.      Chuck Resolute 1990 C&C 34R Atlantic City, NJ From: "Dr. Mark Bodnar" <drbod...@accesswave.ca> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:01:56 AM Subject: Stus-List Bigger Boat Question I'm still looking at boats, reading emails from this list and learning lots.  Right now I'm sitting back, watching the market, looking to new boats that come up, and trying to figure out where I want to end up.   Maybe some more experienced listers can offer some thoughts (on or off list). I know that everyone has there own criteria - but I'm trying to figure out the right boat for me.  My Mirage 24 is quite small - 5ft of headroom (only my 8 yr old can stand up), not enough space to sleep 5 (me and 4 kids), lacks an enclosed head, no functional galley, noisy and smelly outboard. I envision wanting to do some more sailing - little further out of the harbour, some overnights (effectively boat camping with the kids), maybe a long weekend away with the girlfriend. But we've all heard the cracks "2 best days in a boater life - the day he/she buys their boat, and the day they sell it", or "A boat is a hole in the water you pour money into" - not really encouraging. So, why, if they are so terrible does everyone get 2 foot itis? Feel free to espouse on why did you end up with the boat you have? Do you wish you stayed smaller/cheaper/simpler? What would you say to yourself if you could go back and offer advice? Was this the best decision ever?  If you could make a change what do you want? A bigger galley? Bigger cockpit? My temptation was to find a 29-30 foot boat that would work, thinking that would last me for years with the kids and still be a manageable size when they are off.  Keeping costs reasonable, maintenance manageable and enough boat to venture further afield. Right now I could buy a local C&C 33 (with and Atomic4), or a local C&C 30 (diesel), or there are 29's, 30's and 34's within reach - the prices are similar.  I plan on climbing aboard a few different boats to get a feel for size and space, but I'm trying to figure out what I'm getting into without having to learn the painfully hard way!  I'm leaning towards a diesel (only because that seems to be common opinion and gas on my current boat has it's downsides), wheel steering and something fairly stable (so kids and girlfriend aren't barfing over the side -- which I gather eliminates the 29's from the list).  Price wise I'd like to stay below $20000. I have the cash set aside to buy the boat, but clearly bigger is not always better, the maintenance and insidious upkeep costs can add up quickly.  I was able to do a quick sand and bottom paint on my M24 in 2.5 hrs.  Assuming the cost and workload multiply with the displacement I'm guessing a 30ft (being twice the displacement) would be double the effort, a 34ft 3 times the work.  At what point is it more work and you wish for a smaller/cheaper boat? Thanks in advance for the advice, Mark -- ---------------------    Dr. Mark Bodnar B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C) Bedford Chiropractic www.bedfordchiro.ca --------------------- There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval.    - George Santayana _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com

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