Charlie:
I have a 42 and we only dip the pole. I have raced on smaller boats,
however, and Mike’s assessment is good. That said, your question indicates
that you want to commit to one method or the other (to get really good at it),
and you’re asking for a suggestion as to which one to choose. Given that the
dip method will most certainly need to be used above 10 knots or so on your
boat, I would commit to this method. Otherwise, your crew will continue to
practice two methods and may not master one. My two cents.
MLW
From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 9:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Hoyt, Mike
Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Hi Charlie
I would like to first say that our family had a 1981 C&C 36 since new for nine
years. However we rarely flew the spinnaker on it, never raced and I do not
recall ever gybing. That said I did feel that it was a big powerful boat at
the time.
On our boats we have always done end for end because it is simpler and faster.
Initially on our Niagara 26 we did dip pole (because I knew no other way) and
it was slow and un-necessary and we switched to end for end. We carried this
over to the J/27 as well. We have always sailed with just one sheet/guy on
either side. In the Frers fleet however at 33 feet LOA dip pole starts to
become more common and half the boats use separate sheets and guys and some do
dip pole when the wind pipes up. We have stayed with end for end and one set
of lines because it is easier and because I have no intention of flying the
chute when it is truly windy. On a friend’s C&C33-2 the pole has ends that
only allow dip pole and they are considering changing so they can do end for
end. With the C&C 115 we were always dip pole. The pole is set up so only that
is possible.
>From what I understand after a certain size dip pole is not only much safer
>but just about all that is possible. I would think that a C&C 36 is pretty
>much approaching that size with its masthead rig and relatively large J.
On our boat I often end up doing foredeck (because we have a lot of people
capable of doing the other jobs). There are usually two factors that make an
end for end gybe difficult. The first is the driver turning before the mast
end is made which puts excessive pressure on the pole and can make completing
the gybe nearly impossible. The second is when the person on the new guy
sheets it in too soon putting pressure on the mast end. As it gets windier
both of these situations become more difficult to resolve
On the C&C 115 I was on main. Of course like many main trimmers I would too
often watch the foredeck rather than my sail. Dip pole required a good mast
man along with a good bow man and they had to be in sync. With the extra line
we very frequently managed to wrap the new guy around the jaws rather thn
allowing it to move freely. Many times we did not have smooth gybes as a
result. From this perspective end for end would be much simpler
If the 36 were my boat and we were used to end for end I would stick with that
up til 8 knows with single sheet and guy and then dip pole with double
sheet/guy above that. This would make for the quickest gybes IMO
Mike
From: CnC-List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charlie
Nelson via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 10:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our kite(s) and
have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes or end-for-end.
The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with snap-in fitting on
both ends.
We always use lazy sheets and guys.
As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or should
use.
However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our jibes are
taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I share some of
the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the jibe but even
when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man struggles to get the
pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time and giving a lot of
downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it also puts him at risk for
the pole smashing him about the head and shoulders if the pressure builds on
the kite before he has it made.
I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above
about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems like
too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we raced
non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole downwind, we
would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of them pass us on the
way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened out, no one passed us
downwind even if a few gained on us.
OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in the
incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a need for
more practice.
My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in so
that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water Phantom
and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always use the same
method so that we have a chance to get quick at it.
Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
C&C 36 XL/kcb
[email protected]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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_______________________________________________
This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
