I think the photos of the WEGR and CLGR at Stern's Lake posted in Jason 
Cole's checklist linked below seem to illustrate what Caleb is describing 
here.  
https://ebird.org/checklist/S85225919

John Malenich
Boulder, CO 

On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 11:33:19 AM UTC-6 [email protected] wrote:

> Hi Mark!
>
> For the sake of efficiency, I'll be using WEGR to be Western Grebe and 
> CLGR to be Clark's Grebe.
>
> You would be correct that there is variation and therefore ambiguity when 
> it comes to the black and white pattern on the face. From my limited 
> experience, WEGR tends to be the species that has the most common variation 
> that brings facial IDs into the gray-zone, and it seems like most CLGR are 
> pretty straightforward. That being said, looking at a grebe from half a 
> mile away introduces issues, because we can't see every single bird with 
> close-up detail as we would like. The other primary mark that is probably 
> the most useful one to use year-round is the color pattern of the shoulder, 
> neck, and flanks.
>
> On WEGR, the black extends from the back of the neck to more of the base 
> of the neck, and that dark plumage (I say dark, because depending on the 
> age/molt/a bajillion random parameters, it can be black, or some shade of 
> gray) then goes down the shoulder close to the water. I've only been 
> birding for a few years, so take this with a grain of salt, but I've never 
> seen a WEGR in the field that did *not* have dark plumage extend down to 
> the shoulder that connected to the water. The dark plumage extends down the 
> flanks, so the bird just has a darker appearance. Where the body of the 
> bird meets the water on WEGR is usually dark plumage. On CLGR, there is 
> often much more white on the neck, and the black is restricted to the back 
> of the neck. The white then comes off the neck and down the shoulder, which 
> gives the entire front of the bird a much brighter, cleaner GISS. On adult 
> birds, that white/light gray extends down the flanks that are in contact 
> with the water. In most cases, you don't even *need* to see the head in 
> order to make an ID: dark shoulder always means WEGR, no need to wonder. If 
> where the body comes in contact with the water is pretty clearly white, 
> then that is most likely CLGR.
>
> All this being said, I should mention that WEGR x CLGR hybrids do occur 
> sometimes. They probably aren't super common, but I suppose it's never a 
> bad idea to consider this possibility in those situations when you see a 
> bird where all the marks are deep in the realm of ambiguity. I didn't talk 
> much about the bill, because although I'd imagine that's helpful on adult 
> birds in breeding plumage, I'm not sure how *reliable *of a mark that is. 
> Sure, CLGR tend to have brighter and cleaner yellow bills, and WEGR have 
> more dulled colored bills, but this is an even more unreliable mark to base 
> entire IDs off of. Just to name a few parameters that will be in constant 
> flux that can change the way a bill looks include lighting, feeding, and 
> age.
>
> Hope this was helpful in some way :) I'd be interested to hear what more 
> experienced birders do to identify the large grebes.
>
> *The birds are happy, and so am I*
> *~Caleb Alons, Larimer County*
>

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