seb bacon wrote: > > A few points I'd like to add. Before I do, a disclaimer: I've never > used Cocoon, and I really like Zope. Having said that, I've used lots > of other 'competing' systems, and I am able to see Zope's weak points. > > > > > > >Some don't think this 'cloning restriction' a severe limitation, I think > > >this is not a annoyance, but the *first* rule. > > > > > I agree that this is a very important consideration. However, I cannot > > agree with your observation. Zope powers many > > more sites than those of which you may be aware. Unfortunately, I > > don't know too many of them personally, but here are a few: > > > > http://www.activestate.com > > http://www.homegain.com > > http://www.arielpartners.com (I couldn't resist :-) > > ...here's some more from our side of the pond: > > http://www.breastcancercare.org.uk > http://www.intellident.co.uk > http://www.mulberry-insurance.co.uk > http://www.jubilee.gov.uk > http://www.drugs.gov.uk
Yes, I think I got your points :) > > >Boths are fruits, as both publish web content, but Zope is a 'publishing > > >environment' while Cocoon is a 'publishing framework'. > > > > > >An 'environment' is an application that you customize, a 'framework' is > > >the foundation of your own application. > > I disagree: Zope is very much a framework. I've used it for a CMS, for > intranets, and for online data capture. I've created applications which > automatically catalog and convert Word, PDF, and various image formats > which have been emailed to a mailing list as attachments. There's bug > trackers, wikis, slashdot-alikes, etc... > > What Zope lacks IMO is good best practice guidance and detailed > developer documentation, though it's getting there now. Without best > practice guidance, developers tend to choose the first development model > they see, which at the moment tends towards heaps of quick-and-dirty > through the web hacks and tricks. This does give the illusion of Zope > being an 'environment' rather than a 'framework', and encourages > Zopish-looking sites, too. Ok, this probably explains my early impressions. > > >I believe that Zope is mis-placed architecturally, it's an hybrid > > >between a CMS and a publishing framework. And does some of everything, > > >but both poorly, compared to specialized solutions. > > > > > Actually, there is a CMS available for Zope: the Zope Content Management > > Framework (see http://cmf.zope.org). > > > We chose not to use the Zope CMF because of its architecture: it is not > > based on > > standard XML technologies and, in our opinion, brings us too far into > > the "proprietary language land." > > You don't have to be tied into one implementation if you're using the > CMF - nothing about it is more proprietary than vanilla Zope. > > The default, out of the box Zope and CMF may give the impression of > being a poor fit to most requirements. However, most people > misunderstand that it is just an example implementation of a site built > using the CMF. The actual possibilities are endless, and it's a robust > and useful framework. ok > > >1) Integrated Object-oriented database with support for full graphical > > >editing of all objects > > > > > >Do you really want this? I don't. > > > > > Being able to create objects which persist transactionally in a database > simply by mixing in a 'Persisent' class makes development very fast and > simple. If you like programming in python, you should look into the > ZODB a bit more - I think you'll like it, regardless of Zope. I will take a look at all these things in great detail, believe me. > > >Then the Cocoon strong points: > > > > > >1) Integration with Source Code Control System > > > > > >Zope is not file based, it's entirely database based. So CVS doesn't > > >work on it. > > > > > We have made our first baby steps toward solving this problem: > > http://www.zope.org/Members/arielpartners/CVSFile > > This is a very real concern. There are a number of ways of dealing with > it. We use the FSObjects from the CMF. These are filesystem-based > objects which are loaded into the database at run-time. However, we > still have to use DB-only things occasionally. > > This is all set to change in Zope3. The plan is to have full, > bidirectional mapping between the ZODB and the filesystem. > > > > > >2) Integration with J2EE and other Java-based business logic > > > > > >Cocoon is a servlet, thus we get it for free. They find themselves > > >completely detached from the rest of the world, even if they could > > >easily use web-services to glue things. This is a clear marketing plus > > >for us./listinfo/zope ) > > > - If Zope could be made to run under Jython (http://www.jython.org), > > integration with J2EE would be virtually > > a no-brainer, b/c you are already inside a Java VM. > > This is also a goal for Zope3 (a Jython implementation), though I'm not > sure when it'll land. > > > >Moreover, there is no indication of internal modularity and > > >extensibility, SoC-based design, IoC design, data storage abstraction... > > >and no indication on caching strategies, scalability and performance > > >issues. > > You are right that there is *way* too much magick in Zope. That is the > main motivator behind Zope3, which is entirely component-driven. > Architecturally, it is *excellent*, and I'm very excited about it. I > could wax on for hours, but I won't right now. Suffice to say everyone > in the community has learned a lot from Zope2, and we're eager to build > on that experience. See the link Craeg mentioned for more detail. It's great to know this. I really with you guys best luck with the new refactoring: from past experience, I can tell you that is a long and painful process and might create lots of forking frictions inside the community, but if done right (and from what I read, you guys are on the right track), it could give you *lots* of rewarding, both intellectually and from the community. This is what Cocoon did on the transition between 1.x and 2.x and I still have to hear a single individual that didn't like the evolution. I'm pretty sure this will happen for Zope as well. Take care. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
