>From former and current listers... At 02:07 +0100 01/11/00, Iggy Drougge wrote: >To me, not reading the FAQ is ignorance spiced with arrogance. If you can't be >arsed to go through the FAQ, you shpould pay for a helpline instead of relying >on the net community. The LEM lists are high-traffic enough as it is, and I >have to pay my telephone bills by myself. I have no desire to pay any more for >people who ask stupid questions (if they're answered in the FAQ, it's stupid >to ask them again). >Reading the FAQ is the first thing you do when new to a field or forum, and >there is /no/ excuse not to read it. >In fact, I'll even say that if FAQ-ignoring newbies are not flamed, they're >getting away cheaply. What do you think we should do with them? Answer their >question, which was last asked two days ago, then perhaps wipe their noise, >straighten their collar, tie their shoelaces and give them some cookies and >milk, so that they feel comfortable with their new caretakers, ready to act >upon their every whim?
At 21:13 -0800 31/10/00, Andrew W. Hill wrote: >The FAQ is getting rather large, >and there is a lot of stuff in the FAQ so most questions do seem to >get there eventually. You make a good point that the FAQ references >could scare off newbies, but there are many, many, many peopole that >entered and got a "See the FAQ" message and now provide some of the >most valuable input here (Iggy, Donovan etc). If there had been a >FAQ when I first came, I would have saved embarassing myself a LOT >(now I just dont have an excuse!). At 16:41 -0500 31/10/00, Dan Knight wrote: >As the pickle writes: > >>...whenever someone posts an answer that's in the FAQ - and I >>try to answer every question I know something about, no matter how minute >>(and plenty I don't know anything about :-P shut up, Aqua) - I'm gonna >>tell them to see the FAQ. Why? Because, in other people's opinions (I'm >>leaving my own out of this), it's quickly becoming a must-read for anyone >>working with older Macs. > >Shoot, I've been working with Macs since 1986, run a fairly well >respected site about older Macs, and even I'm learning things from the >FAQ. At 13:07 -0800 31/10/00, Tim Breen wrote (quoting Rick King): >>I guess it is just me, but I have a real problem with the "go read the FAQ" >>statement as an answer to a question. > >I find it a MUCH better answer than the alternative, which is often >someone's faulty recollection of a procedure that can kill your Mac. When >someone asks "How do I..." and you respond that the answer is in the FAQ, >you're not giving them the brush-off, you're showing them where they can >find reliable, generally proofread, specific instructions in response to >their answer. When I refer people to the FAQ I generally also include >either a link to the portion they need, or at least a reference so they can >find it (e.g., "Look in the FAQ under setting up your Mac as a file server >under System 6"). > >>To me, that smacks of the same >>arrogance shown by linux geeks when you ask them a question and are told >>with a brush of the hand.... "RTFM!" which of course stands for Read the >>F****** Manual...... > >"RTFM" was originally (well, as "originally" as anything else, anyway) a >term used in the military -- like SNAFU (Situation Normal...). So there's >no exclusivity among Linux geeks for that term. And again, the manual (or >the FAQ) often _is_ the best source of advice for many questions. That's >what they're for. > >>Now that answer I am happy with...I got an answer to my question >>and was reminded of the FAQ all in one shot > >If the question really IS simple, like "what's that 'tan' color they used >to make Macs in?" then sure, it's no problem to just spit out an answer and >be on your way. Usually, though, while the questions may be simple the >answers frequently are not. For example my favorite, "what's the best >version of the OS to use with my Mac?" If an adequate answer to the >question is longer than a sentence or so and the information is in the FAQ, >the best answer really _is_ to say, "it's covered in the FAQ at <xxxxxx>." > >>I guess all that I am saying >>is to not lose the friendly camaraderie that the lists have and be nice to >>the new folks. > >The two [referring to the FAQ and being friendly] are definitely not >mutually exclusive. No one is answering questions by saying, "Go read the >FAQ, you idiot!" Not even His Greenness. <g> However, the questions asked >here even by newbies are often quite technical in nature or require lengthy >explanations that are best done by reference instead of repetition. In any >knowledge-sharing group you have to find the balance between helping the >new folks and not pestering the knowledgeable folks so much that they >leave. IMO the FAQ is a convenient lever for helping to adjust this balance. To which Kyle Hansen then responded: At 13:18 -0800 31/10/00, Kyle Hansen wrote: >Well put Mr Breen. At 21:27 +0000 31/10/00, Alex Harrington wrote (also quoting Rick King): >>If I wanted to go digging through the >>manual, I would not be asking the >>question...but not wanting to dig >>through the manual, I ask a simple >>question. Some people just want to >>know a quick simple answer to a >>question. > >Fair enough if the FAQ was a 400 page book with no index but it is clearly >set out and honestly - if it's in there it doesn't take that long to find >it! > >I try not to bother the list with things that I can find out with a >websearch or reading the FAQ because I get the answer more quickly and >others do not have to respond to my stupid, often incoherant ramblings (the >only exception being Stuart who always gets my "do you forsee any problems" >messages about half 10 at night! :)) And a couple days later (early November 2000), my own comments: I was doing a bit of catching up on FAQ stuff this weekend (and for anyone who tried to get to it yesterday morning Eastern Time, the server was intermittently down) and without calling Rick out too harshly, I wanted to make a couple comments on this: At 12:45 -0800 on 31/10/00, Rick King wrote: >I guess it is just me, but I have a real problem with the "go read the FAQ" >statement as an answer to a question. To me, that smacks of the same >arrogance shown by linux geeks when you ask them a question and are told >with a brush of the hand.... "RTFM!" which of course stands for Read the >F****** Manual......If I wanted to go digging through the manual, I would Two points: 1) Manuals are written for a reason. People who write them don't do it for their own enjoyment (at least not usually). They're written with the *intention* that you, the user, will read them. Would you go out and buy a lawn mower and, instead of looking at the assembly instructions, ask you neighbour (who may or may not have ever seen that lawn mower before) how to assemble it? And if you did, would you honestly expect your neighbour to say something *other* than "Read the directions?" I might speculate that in such a situation, a neighbour might even consider the person asking the question simple-minded. 2) Be glad this isn't the PHOTOSHP list that Chris Cox and Marc Pawliger (from Adobe) are on. If you ask *anything* on that list that's in the manual, you *will* get told repeatedly (not usually by those two) to RTFM, simply because RTFM is what you ought to be doing instead of asking silly questions like "how do I export to gif?" Again, the analogy isn't perfect here, but we're working on the welcome message... The problem is, people find these lists on the 'net and they don't *read* the whole page. I highly doubt there are subscription links anywhere but MacLaunch and LEM, and I highly doubt most newbies are joining thru the links on the MacLaunch page, since it's so damned hard to find (have you ever tried to find MacLaunch's e-mail list link on their home page?) but I digress... And finally, one from R. A. Cantrell: At 17:29 -0500 01/07/01, R.A. Cantrell wrote: >I give pickle a lot of grief on other counts, but "see the FAQ" is not one >of them. If you get used to "seeing the FAQ" when applicable, it promotes >intelligent rather than repetitive conversation. -- the pickle FAQ <http://macfaq.org/index.shtml> Software Archive <ftp://download:[EMAIL PROTECTED]//Users/thepickl/Sites/Archive/> <http://www.members.jmug.org/%7Ethepickl/archive/> _________________________________________________________________ -- Compact Macs is sponsored by <http://lowendmac.com/>. Support Low End Mac <http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html> Compact Macs list info: <http://lowendmac.com/lists/compact.shtml> The FAQ: <http://macfaq.org/> --> AOL users, remove "mailto:"; Send list messages to: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, email: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For digest mode, email: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subscription questions: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Archive:<http://www.mail-archive.com/compact.macs%40mail.maclaunch.com/> Using a Mac? Free email & more at Applelinks! http://www.applelinks.com
