On Tue, 2006-10-10 at 20:28 -0700, David Fotland wrote: > 7x7 is pretty much solved (by people, not exhaustive search), so it's a much > easier game than chess. > Correct komi is 9 points. http://senseis.xmp.net/?7x7BestPlay > > David
I did a komi test with AnchorMan - a mediocre but not super weak program at various komi's. I used 6.5, 7.5, 8.5 and 9.5. I'm running 500 games but 9.5 has only played about 200. At komi 9.5 White is winning 71.6 percent of the games. At komi 8.5 White is winning 59.4 percent of the games. At komi 7.5 White is winning 61.2 percent of the games. At komi 6.5 White is winning 52.4 percent of the games. I suspsect at 5.5 Black will be winning. I'm running this test now for completeness and black is ahead after 9 games so far. I don't have any doubt that the correct komi is 9 but it's interesting how far off this is. AnchorMan can't win with White even at 6.5 which is probably because it is a weak program. I may try doing the test with Lazarus, which should be playing significantly stronger. I may also try the test with an opening book that gets into the game with some correct moves. The stat's may change significantly even if I give white the best 2nd move. - Don > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:49 AM > > To: computer-go > > Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer go in 7x7 > > > > > > Yes, it wouldn't be best for building a strong player unless the > > program assumed a certain komi. But then it gives up if it cannot > > achieve that komi. > > > > Which reminds me - when you run test suites, you have this > > problem. I have to doctor up problems so that the correct > > move gives a win and all > > incorrect choices lose. Or you can specify KOMI for each individual > > problem. > > > > 7x7 is more like Chess in the branching factor, but it's still a much > > harder problem than Chess. In the beginning, it's worse than most > > chess positions. > > > > If anyone is interesting in trying 7x7 and has a linux > > machine available, perhaps a spare home computer with a > > resolvable inet address > > and web server, we can put up a version of CGOS for 7x7. > > Just let me > > know. > > > > > > - Don > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2006-10-10 at 13:28 -0400, Chris Fant wrote: > > > But then you have to change your code to favor average > > terrirory over > > > win ratio. > > > > > > > > > On 10/10/06, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > A good way to structure 7x7 matches, is that you forget > > komi, and > > > > just play 1 game as white and 1 games as black, adding up > > the territory in > > > > both games. Then you don't have to worry about which > > komi is correct. > > > > > > > > - Don > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2006-10-10 at 13:02 -0400, House, Jason J. wrote: > > > > > I think Crazy Stone did very well on 7x7 with an > > opening book. If > > > > > you go down that road, I recommend that you consider using the > > > > > attached file to populate the database. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:48 AM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: [computer-go] Computer go in 7x7 > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > I am wondering about Go in 7x7. I know that the game in > > this size > > > > > has no real interest in itself. However, I think that > > the level of > > > > > computer go programs > > > > > is much higher in 7x7 than in 9x9, and it could be > > interesting to see > > > > > until > > > > > where we can go in 7x7. > > > > > > > > > > There was a discussion on this list recently about the level of > > > > > CrazyStone in 7x7, and also (perhaps not on this list, > > only on kgs > > > > > I don't remember) of > > > > > Magnus saying that the level of Valkyria was very good > > on 7x7. I am > > > > > wondering > > > > > if we can make a player that beats almost all humans in 7x7? > > > > > > > > > > I have tried to put MoGo on kgs in 7x7, but it looses > > quite a lot > > > > > of games. Ok, I have put only 5 minutes time, so it plays quite > > > > > fast, and perhaps could > > > > > be better with more time, but it is clearly far from a > > really good > > > > > player. > > > > > > > > > > I have implemented a meta-UCT (that means that instead > > of playing > > > > > a random game after the tree, you make MoGo playing against > > > > > itself) to generate an > > > > > opening database. I have made this meta-UCT 100% > > parallel for a cluster > > > > > (as > > > > > the evaluation is now so costly, parallelisation is > > trivial). I can > > > > > dedicate > > > > > quite a lot of computers to this task as I have access > > to a cluster. > > > > > So I wonder if you think that this meta-UCT can be effective to > > > > > generate a > > > > > good opening database, and this way manage to have a really good > > > > > computer Go > > > > > player in 7x7 ? > > > > > Perhaps usual UCT exploits too much for this task, because my > > > > > experiments show > > > > > that the beginning of the tree is quite narrow. Here > > are the first > > > > > moves: D4 > > > > > D5 E5 C4 D3 C5. I have no idea if it is very stupid or normal. > > > > > > > > > > Remi was saying that the right komi for 7x7 is 9, but I > > have made > > > > > my experiments with komi 7.5, and the meta-UCT predicts > > that black > > > > > is almost always loosing. Is it because the blacks > > moves are very > > > > > bad? > > > > > > > > > > To conclude, I think this question of 7x7 is > > interesting because > > > > > we can > > > > > > > > > > perhaps have a very good player. What do you think? If you have > > > > > good ideas to make the meta-UCT generate a good database, I can > > > > > dedicate a lot of CPU to > > > > > this task, and would interested to see what happen. > > > > > > > > > > Sylvain > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > computer-go mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > computer-go mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > computer-go mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > computer-go mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > computer-go mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list [email protected] http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
