thanks for the wealth of information. it's great to see raw data like this,
s. On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:57 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Quoting Jean-loup Gailly <[email protected]>: > >> Magnus writes: >> >>> Further, I would imagine many jigos could be quite peaceful short games >> >> What makes you think that optimal play should be peaceful? I speculate >> that it should often be very complex, full of kos and tenukis, and >> very difficult to understand for humans ("I play here because it gains >> 1 point 20 moves later"). Some games might be peaceful, but a perfect >> player can select arbitrarily complex sequences as long as they still >> achieve the perfect result. There are a lot more complex games than >> peaceful games. > > I think you are right. Maybe it is possible to create a book that leads to > short jigos within the tree of "perfect games" but of course a strong book > should prefer longer and complicated lines without making mistakes. > > My speculation was that short lines for jigo might be missing in a book for > 7.5, but I do not think that can explain that lack of jigos in the > tournament. > > I started a proper selfplay experiment with komi 7.0 with thinking time > clearly longer than for CGOS to get high quality games. > > So far for 38 games there were 7 Jigo (18%). > B won 11 28% > W won 20 52% > > This seems to be the same patterns as in the tournament, where white has a > clear advantage but less so because more jigo thanks to selfplay + much > longer thinking times. > > Actually the games were played with following first moves forced > systematically, as if a 1 ply uniform opening book > > Move #B Won/#Games > > E5 4/8 > E4 1/6 > F4 3/6 > E3 3/6 Jigo 1 > F3 0/6 Jigo 5 > G3 0/6 jigo 1 > > Moves near the center are stronger as expected, but all jigos occurred with > starting moves close to the edge. > > I know nothing can be concluded from this data set. But it is fun to > speculate. > Maybe E5 is a losing move for black! But it is such a complicated move and > leads to fighting that Jigo are rare and a move such is F3 gives Jigo with > perfect play. > > Speaking against this may be that with komi 5.5 the moves near the edge does > not seems so strong for black. But so far I cannot rule out that all those > opening moves are a win for black with komi 5.5. Anyway the opening in 9x9 > remains mysterious in most parts, no matter how much data I collect.... > > Or is that with slow starting moves blacks only hope is jigo and thus > achieves it more often? > > > I used to be skeptical against integral komi but now I feel that it makes > blacks play more interesting than it is with komi 7.5. > > I wonder if Don would be willing to start a CGOS server with 9x9 komi 7.0? > And would people then be willing to play on it? I think in the long term > this is the best way getting an idea how Jigo impacts on play. It might even > help books development for 7.5 because black lines that loses with no chance > of jigo might then be rejected, and the remaining lines is perhaps also > strong for 7.5. (Speculation). > > I also checked game length for the jigos picking the last move that took a > real point: > > 70 53 60 71 77 52 73 > Mean 65 > > All other games were resigned on 20% win rate (in prefer many games in self > play, compared to be sure that the right player wins), and were on average > much shorter. > > Resigned games > 75 35 38 53 58 45 46 51 22 44 38 44 54 > > Mean 46 > > So it seems to be no evidence for any "quick" Jigos for this preliminary > result. > > Magnus > > > > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > [email protected] > http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > _______________________________________________ Computer-go mailing list [email protected] http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
