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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Unconventional pronoun systemsshow us yours!
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. OT: 'Dry' textbooks (was: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Spanish ll in different dialects
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: bless (adj)
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Unconventional pronoun systems-show us yours!
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: OT: 'Dry' textbooks (was: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Spanish ll in different dialects
From: "Elyse M. Grasso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Sorry
From: "J. K. Hoffman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
From: "J. K. Hoffman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Conlanging has the Hacker nature? (was Re: CHAT: music // was Leaf script)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. walter e. meyers?
From: Michael Erard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: OT: 'Dry' textbooks (was: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_)
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
From: Mark Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Conlanging has the Hacker nature? (was Re: CHAT: music // was Leaf script)
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:06:22 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Unconventional pronoun systemsshow us yours!
Steven Williams wrote:
> Anyone have an unconventional pronoun system to share,
> or criticism of my own system?
Does the fact that, in Gzarondan, a nominative pronoun contains
markers for tense and mood count as unconventional? :-)
(I usually say that a nominative *article* contains this information,
but the distinction between articles and pronouns doesn't exist in
Gzarondan grammar.)
Adrian.
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:49:12 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: 'Dry' textbooks (was: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_)
Hey all!
On Sunday 29 August 2004 01:34, Mark P. Line wrote:
> J. K. Hoffman said:
> > But, I'm an almost
> > total non-linguist. I mean, I've never had a formal
> > class in linguistics and what tiny bit I know I
> > dragged, kicking and screaming, from some of the driest
> > textbooks I have ever read. Unfortunately, _Describing
> > Morphosyntax_ is one of those, for me.
>
> What is it exactly that makes you experience these books
> as 'dry'? I'm curious because I can easily imagine that
> most non-linguists find much of what I write 'dry' in the
> same way. But I wouldn't know where to start to make it
> any wetter...
>
>
> -- Mark
Well, you could wrap it in a nice little story :�
I think it's just the style such things are written in --
always explanatory, no action, quite densely written so
that you must think about what you read. Like an entry
in an encyclopedia. It's a lot more strenuous (sp?) than
watching TV at least. Sometimes must I really force myself
to read explanations about a grammatical feature such as
the mails about the "Silindon Optative" word by word from
the beginning to the end. The mails about Silindon are
still unread, so are some discussions about ergativity.
Carsten
--
Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:49:05 -0400
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
Roger Mills wrote:
>A possible omission or oversight (?)-- "j" [Z] is given in the phonology
>section, but looking quickly thru the lexicon, I didn't see a single
>instance of it.
Thanks -- good point. I've removed [Z] and re-spelled [S] as 'j' instead of
'jj'. After all, IIRC, /S/ occurs in Welsh, while /Z/ doesn't, and Sindarin
was inspired in part by Welsh (Sindarin inspired Minhyan phonology).
David P�rez :-) wrote:
>My, but you are in industrious! And you did all this in just one >hour?
No, I did it all in an hour or two A DAY for eight days: so 12 hours or so.
>(1) You give an example of the word for "jail", which I'll copy out:
>litehomigir [< lir , "free" & - te -, "opposite" & - ho -, "small-item"
>& -mi-, "person" & -gi-, "place".] n. Prison, gaol, jail.
>So what is a "litehomir"? Jailer? Prisoner?
Prisoner -- it's already in the lexicon. :-)
>Also, why is there a "small-item" suffix in there?
Normally I'm quite perfectionist about the semantic straightforwardness of
my etymologies. However, for Minnhyan, I decided that not all the word
derivations would be logical -- see below.
>(2) Hey, we were just discussing languages where the indefinite is
>marked and the definite isn't. Minhyan appears to be such a language.
Interesting coincidence. I had actually chosen this approach but not yet
used it for a revision of Dublex. I didn't mark the definite simply because
in an English word count "the" was more common then "a" and "an", so I
thought this would be give me more concise texts.
>(3) What you did with the question words is *really* neat.
Thanks!
>(4) The order of cases in a sentence and the order in which they're presented
>is identical.
Yes, for the six most common cases, but the vocative (listed last) is the
only case to proceed the verb.
I arranged the paradigm that way for consistency but didn't feel like I
could list vocative first.
>(5) I don't really get your interlinears in the texts section...
>Could you perhaps explain one of the sentences?
Perhaps the tricky part is that the infixes can be difficult to parse:
Mathiffo, ama garaha calapan lubewad.
Mathi/-ffo, ama gara-ha calan/-pa- lubed/-wa-.
Mathi/VOCATIVE-DEFINITE, love/INDICATIVE-IMPERFECTIVE I/AGENTIVE-SINGULAR
you/PATIENTIVE-SINGULAR also/ABLATIVE-DEFINITE.
I love you too, Mathi.
I need to flesh out the grammar with more sample sentences.
>Looks great! Good work! (P.S.: How did you create *so* many
>words in such a short amount of time *and* put them all up on
>the web?)
If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the
shoulders of microprocessors!
I wrote a program to analyze the Esperanto words of the Ergane dictionary
(which is public domain), parsing them into possible infix and affix series.
So it would convert _frizistino_ "hairdresser into "friz|ist|in|o", which
it translated into:
tuurona [< tuw, "hair-do" & -ro-, "professional" & -na-, "female".] n.
Hairdresser, female hairdresser.
Of course, it would also do crazy things like:
machorab [< mab, "beard" & -cho-, "collection" & -<i>ra</i>-, "doctrine".]
n. Barbarism.
Perhaps barbarism is a doctrine of collecting the beards of slain enemies?
These false analyses are a known problem with Esperanto's word formation,
which is ambiguous. The most famous example (from Don Harlow's site) is
'misiloj', "missiles", which could be analyzed as "mis-il-o-j", "tools that
miss"!
My justification for these etymologies in the world of my language is listed
at the top of the lexicon (http://www.langmaker.com/minhlex.htm).
Basically this method of lexical derivation was something I had always
wanted to try, but I knew it would take too long to correct the etymologies
for an engelang (my usual field of conlanging). It worked out great for an
artlang, though.
Best regards,
Jeffrey
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:25:07 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spanish ll in different dialects
On Sun, Aug 29, 2004 at 12:53:02AM -0400, David Peterson wrote:
> <humor>
> " 'We', white man?"
> -Tanto to the Lone Ranger after the latter said, "Looks like we're
> surrounded!",
> upon discovering that they were surrounded by "Indians".</humor>
Nit: spelled "Tonto", despite being pronounced as an Americanized
version of /'tan.to/. I don't know if the use of the Spanish word for
"fool" was deliberate.
-Marcos, who had a dream the other night that Jay Silverheels really
wanted to be a classical musician
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:59:21 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: bless (adj)
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> "Ice tea" look awfully much like a normal compound to me, especially given
> German _Eistee_, Swedish _iste_ (a little voice in my head says it should be
> spelt _ist�_ - BP? My lexicon doesn't list it), both lit "icetea".
Iced coffee is extremely popular over here (although I can't stand
the stuff myself), and is always 'iced', not 'ice'.
For the dominant local brand, see the following website - it's
absolutely true about the 'icon status'.
http://www.natfoods.com.au/for_consumers/great_brands/Farmers_Union_Iced_Coffee.stm
Adrian.
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:06:38 +0200
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Unconventional pronoun systems-show us yours!
--- Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb:
> Steven Williams ha tera a:
>
> > Anyone have an unconventional pronoun system to
> share,
> > or criticism of my own system?
>
> Well, one of the languages I dream about but never
> actually work out
> the details of has a pretty odd pronoun system.
>
> It's spoken by one man in a mental institution, and
> was probably
> invented by him, which explains a good deal of its
> oddness (which
> extends to far more than just its pronoun system).
>
> It has no second-person pronouns - no second-person
> forms at all,
> whether pronouns, or inflections, or anything else.
> The man generally
> doesn't address others, but just speaks to himself
That's about how the Gi-an-nain system started out in
my mind. I decided to get rid of the first and second
person forms and keep a rather rich set of third
person pronouns. However, this seemed boring, and I
was struck by a bolt of inspiration while reading
about Dyirbal.
Dyirbal uses a wacky split case system that is divided
along the lines of discourse participant and discourse
non-participant; I forget the specific details, but I
loved the split. So, I discarded everything but that
split between participant and non-participant.
Fortunately, Gi-an-nain is just as pro-drop as
Japanese, so I need not worry myself much over it.
That, and case particles by themselves may be used as
pronouns in informal speech, making the split somewhat
irrelevant (but there is a strong tendency to use them
only for objects that are not a part of the discourse).
=====
"Alle Idole m�ssen sterben."
"All idols must die."
--Einst�rzende Neubauten, "Seele Brennt" (Soul is on Fire)
"Where am I? What is this thing called 'the world'? Who is it who has lured me into
the thing, and now leaves me here? How did I come into the world? Why was I not
consulted?"
--S�ren Kierkegaard
"You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You need not
even listen, simply wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The
world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice; it will roll
in ecstasy at your feet."
--Franz Kafka, Journals
___________________________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:43:38 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: 'Dry' textbooks (was: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_)
Quoting Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I think it's just the style such things are written in --
> always explanatory, no action, quite densely written so
> that you must think about what you read. Like an entry
> in an encyclopedia. It's a lot more strenuous (sp?) than
> watching TV at least. Sometimes must I really force myself
> to read explanations about a grammatical feature such as
> the mails about the "Silindon Optative" word by word from
> the beginning to the end. The mails about Silindon are
> still unread, so are some discussions about ergativity.
I find most encyclopaedias more captivating than most TV shows. But then, I've
never fooled myself I'm a typical person.
Andreas
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:52:35 -0400
From: "Elyse M. Grasso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spanish ll in different dialects
On Sunday 29 August 2004 09:25 am, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 29, 2004 at 12:53:02AM -0400, David Peterson wrote:
> > <humor>
> > " 'We', white man?"
> > -Tanto to the Lone Ranger after the latter said, "Looks like we're
> > surrounded!",
> > upon discovering that they were surrounded by "Indians".</humor>
>
> Nit: spelled "Tonto", despite being pronounced as an Americanized
> version of /'tan.to/. I don't know if the use of the Spanish word for
> "fool" was deliberate.
>
> -Marcos, who had a dream the other night that Jay Silverheels really
> wanted to be a classical musician
One of the subgroups of the Apache are the Tonto Apache, whose (original?)
territory was in and around the Tonto Basin (Range? there's a Western novel
titled "Under the Tonto Rim") . The insult is of course probably deliberate:
they probably didn't call themselves the Tonto. (Or maube their name for
themselves sounded a little like Tonto to their Spanish speaking enemis.) And
the territory was probably named after them rather than vice versa.
On the other hand, there is a persistent rumor that Kemo Sabe also means idiot
(or something worse) in some language or other...
ObConlang: During the Occupation, the Shayanans were always careful to use the
long form of the name of the Imperial Security Police instead of the short
form that was equivalent to KGB or Gestapo. They used the short form among
themselves with considerable satisfaction, though. The short form, when
mutated through Shayanan pronunciation, sounds exactly like FENFI, a common
word for a blood-sucking swamp parasite (approx. = leech). Cue running
jokes about truth in advertising...
--
Elyse Grasso
The World of Cherani Station
www.data-raptors.com/cherani/index.html
Cherani Tradespeech
www.data-raptors.com/cherani/tradespeech.html
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:22:36 -0500
From: "J. K. Hoffman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sorry
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:24:50 -0400
> From: Afian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Sorry
>
> I'm sorry for bothering you with posts about my languages. I have now
> abandoned all of them to create a totaly different one. I will post a
> feature list and an example when it is , atleast basically, finished.
>
> ------------------------------
Afian,
Don't bother with any arrogant ass that thinks your efforts aren't
"worthy" or that you are too much of a "n00b" or "newbie" or whatever
stupid, condescending label they wish to attach to you and your work, to
be worthwhile. They are insecure in their own lack of skill and only
feel good taking shots at others.
No effort you make is "unworthy" or a "bother". Those efforts, great
and small, are what this entire list is about. What's more, it's about
how you feel making the language, not how some putz judges it. You may
have very good reasons to make choices that they don't understand. the
point is to have some fun. The people who want to tell you that you
have to do it a certain way can take a flying leap.
I've been at the research end of thing for years, literally. I haven't
produced an conlang worth the name in over ten years. In fact, since
long before I found this list and all the wonderful, frightening,
amazing suggestions of the far more capable than myself. So, as far as
I'm concerned, the simple fact that you're actively working on one, or
more, languages is great! Remember, it's for the fun of doing it, not
for what other people think or say, okay? As long as you're having fun,
I think anything you produce is just great.
Keep coming back,
Jim
P.S. I've also sent you something off-list that I hope will add
inspiration to your efforts and help keep you going.
--
Visit my resume at http://www.ryumaou.com/hoffman/resume.html
Why am I adding this to my sig? Because I was Googlespammed!
Read more about it here:
http://www.ryumaou.com/ryumaou-com.htm
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:36:43 -0500
From: "J. K. Hoffman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:34:45 -0500 From: "Mark P. Line"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
>
>
> What is it exactly that makes you experience these books as 'dry'?
> I'm curious because I can easily imagine that most non-linguists find
> much of what I write 'dry' in the same way. But I wouldn't know where
> to start to make it any wetter...
>
>
> -- Mark
>
> ------------------------------
Well, to a certain extent, I think it's unavoidable. I mean, there's
all this technical jargon that, frankly, is quite necessary to the work.
I guess, in the case of _Describing Morphosyntax_ it started off quite
well, but went on and on describing all these different parts of speech
with very, very few examples most of which were quite hard for me to try
and pronounce in my head. I'm sorry to admit, but I have neither the
IPA nor the X-SAMPA chart memorized, so those references occasionally
overwhelm me. And, it would have been nice if they at least *mentioned*
the IPA chart in the introduction. I think the book was written with
the idea that the reader had quite a bit of linguistic education
already. And, indeed, that may have been the intention of the author.
As I mentioned, I'm about the furthest thing from a linguist or
linguistics student one could imagine. I've never taken *any* classes
in it at all. I've slogged my way through several textbooks and other
books, mainly introductory texts, just trying to get a handle on all the
technical jargon that's required to adequately describe even a "simple"
language, if such a thing exists. So far, I don't think I'm doing too
well, honestly. But, I'm stubborn, so I keep coming back for more! ^_^
If you'd like more of my stupid, stinking opinion about that sort of
rubbish, feel free to e-mail me directly. I'd love to help make
linguistics books easier for the poor lay slobs like me, if I can, but
I'd hate to waste anyone's conlang bandwidth with my rantings on the
subject anymore. That goes for anyone else who wants to grill me about
the subject, too. I'm pretty much always open to direct mail from you
all.
Thanks,
Jim
--
Visit my resume at http://www.ryumaou.com/hoffman/resume.html
Why am I adding this to my sig? Because I was Googlespammed!
Read more about it here:
http://www.ryumaou.com/ryumaou-com.htm
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:48:28 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
Jeffrey Henning wrote:
> If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the
> shoulders of microprocessors!
>
> I wrote a program to analyze the Esperanto words of the Ergane dictionary
> (which is public domain), parsing them into possible infix and affix
> series.
> So it would convert _frizistino_ "hairdresser into "friz|ist|in|o", which
> it translated into:
>
> tuurona [< tuw, "hair-do" & -ro-, "professional" & -na-, "female".] n.
> Hairdresser, female hairdresser.
>
> Of course, it would also do crazy things like:
>
> machorab [< mab, "beard" & -cho-, "collection" & -<i>ra</i>-,
> "doctrine".]
> n. Barbarism.
>
> Perhaps barbarism is a doctrine of collecting the beards of slain enemies?
Aha! I suspected something like that, but wasn't aware of the source. All
becomes clear. :-)))) It produced some very amusing (not to say perplexing)
derivations.
I was struck by the specificity of some of the words. Cab-stand?? for just
one example. Also, since the language is said to be spoken on another
planet, the presence of Baobab was amazing. It must be a remarkable place.
Parallel evolution!! Earth's Long-lost Twin??
>
> These false analyses are a known problem with Esperanto's word formation,
> which is ambiguous. The most famous example (from Don Harlow's site) is
> 'misiloj', "missiles", which could be analyzed as "mis-il-o-j", "tools
> that
> miss"!
Hmm, otherwise known as SDI, or "Star Wars", of which, mercifully, we
haven't heard must recently.
>
> My justification for these etymologies in the world of my language is
> listed
> at the top of the lexicon (http://www.langmaker.com/minhlex.htm).
>
> Basically this method of lexical derivation was something I had always
> wanted to try, but I knew it would take too long to correct the
> etymologies
> for an engelang (my usual field of conlanging). It worked out great for
> an
> artlang, though.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jeffrey
>
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:19:29 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:36:43 -0500, J. K. Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I think the book [Describing Morphosyntax] was written with
> the idea that the reader had quite a bit of linguistic education
> already. And, indeed, that may have been the intention of the author.
Indeed. It's a guide for field linguists, who are very probably doing
post-grad research work, unless the field in which you happen to be
linguing is that of your own conlang.
> As I mentioned, I'm about the furthest thing from a linguist or
> linguistics student one could imagine. I've never taken *any* classes
> in it at all. I've slogged my way through several textbooks and other
> books, mainly introductory texts, just trying to get a handle on all the
> technical jargon that's required to adequately describe even a "simple"
> language, if such a thing exists. So far, I don't think I'm doing too
> well, honestly. But, I'm stubborn, so I keep coming back for more!
Let me give you the one piece of advice that has helped me more than any
other from this list: Get a decent linguistics dictionary.
I personally own, use and love Larry Trask's _A Dictionary of Grammatical
Terms in Linguistics_, so much so that it's the one book which lives
permanently on my desk, and never gets retired to the bookshelf. It's
amazing what having all these dry, obscure terms at your fingertips can do
for your understanding and appreciation of almost any other linguistics
text. Sure, sometimes looking up a definition will lead to looking up a
second or third definition, but it's amazing how quickly the brain
silently absorbs this knowledge. You'll find yourself not looking up
things you used to look up every time, without even realising it.
If I ever teach linguistics (unlikely, but it's a semi-dream of mine),
Trask's dictionary is going to be firmly on the "required" list for my
students.
Get a decent linguistics dictionary, and keep it handy. You wont be sorry.
I paid fifteen pounds for mine, and it's probably the best fifteen pounds
I ever spent.
Paul
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:16:30 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 06:26 , David Peterson wrote:
> Jeffrey wrote (and everything else in corner brackets):
>
> <<Oh, and have we ever decided which of the nine daughters of Mnemosyne
> and
> Zeus is the Muse of Conlangs?� Because I need to know an appropriate
> offering to make to her!>>
>
> We should have an online voting...thing.
>
> I'd like to suggest that the Muse of Conlangs is (named in my just-made-up
> Romlang Ladelyoromono) Temporo Liboro, loosely translated as "free time".
> ;)
That would be giving Zeus and Mnemosyne a tenth daughter (or their first
son - but can a Muse be male?)
In any case, these Greek deities are no use as far as conlanging is
concerned. The Greeks had a very simple linguistic view of the world:
there are those who speak a proper language, namely Greek, and those
others, the 'barbaroi' who speak lesser tongues and might just as well be
saying "bar-bar". Conlanging is just adding to the bar-bar confusion.
If you need a goddess of conlanging, then IMO you need to look to a
different pantheon.
>
> We already have a patron saint, though, right?� (Hildegard von Bingham?)
Yep - she's good enough for me.
> Seriously, though, we need to get crackin'.� We need a flag, an official
> conlang
> bird, an anthem...�
A flag & official bird, if you like (an official flower also) - but anthem?
In what language will the words be?
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
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"A mind which thinks at its own expense will always
interfere with language." J.G. Hamann, 1760
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:34:13 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlanging has the Hacker nature? (was Re: CHAT: music // was Leaf script)
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:59:21 +0930, Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating
Dragon) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> B. Garcia wrote:
>
>> I chose the lyrics in my sig because i thought they related well to
>> Conlanging and language in general :)
>
> I can well imagine that music might be a popular passtime among list
> members (simply because minds that are simultaneously creative and
> analytical are probably likely to be inclined that way).
Interestingly, you've nailed the much more verbose description by Eric S
Raymond of what makes a truly great computer programmer/hacker. Also
listed among the traits are a tendency to be more liberal in sexual
attitudes, a disregard for rules that get in the way of doing fun work, a
love of spicy food, an interest in the martial arts, an appreciation of
word-play, and a feeling that the line between work and play can be
blurry. There are more, here:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/appendixb.html
I wonder how many of ESR's "hacker" traits tend to bleed over into
conlangers? I suspect there's a fair overlap (our own Master Of The
Instrumentality is a clear example of someone who is well established in
both camps). Perhaps conlangers can be described as hackers of the
linguistic realm?
Hmmm.
Pop quiz: Does the above-linked protrait of J Random Hacker strike very
many chords within you? Which ones?
Paul
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:03:19 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:16:30 +0100, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A flag & official bird, if you like (an official flower also) - but
> anthem?
> In what language will the words be?
Why, Esperanto, of course ;-)
Paul
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:04:08 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
Ray wrote:
<<A flag & official bird, if you like (an official flower also) - but anthem?
� In what language will the words be?>>
English, of course: The language that Almighty God speaks. ;)
I was thinking it'd be like the motto, where it could be translated
into any language, such that it (like the motto) wouldn't be in *any*
language, but it could be *conveyed* using any language.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:18:51 -0500
From: Michael Erard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: walter e. meyers?
Is Walter E. Meyers, author of Aliens and Linguists, still around?
Michael
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:40:22 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
David Peterson wrote:
> Ray wrote:
>
> <<A flag & official bird, if you like (an official flower also) - but
> anthem?
> In what language will the words be?>>
>
> English, of course: The language that Almighty God speaks. ;)
Nonsense. God speaks Welsh. We know this because, Statistically, the
Welsh have more religious experiences than anyone else. The only reason
for this must be that it's easier for God to communicate in Welsh.
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:12:18 -0500
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: 'Dry' textbooks (was: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_)
Carsten Becker said:
>
> On Sunday 29 August 2004 01:34, Mark P. Line wrote:
>
> > J. K. Hoffman said:
> > > But, I'm an almost
> > > total non-linguist. I mean, I've never had a formal
> > > class in linguistics and what tiny bit I know I
> > > dragged, kicking and screaming, from some of the driest
> > > textbooks I have ever read. Unfortunately, _Describing
> > > Morphosyntax_ is one of those, for me.
> >
> > What is it exactly that makes you experience these books
> > as 'dry'? I'm curious because I can easily imagine that
> > most non-linguists find much of what I write 'dry' in the
> > same way. But I wouldn't know where to start to make it
> > any wetter...
>
> Well, you could wrap it in a nice little story :�
So, Phil the Phoneme walked into this bar, see, and ...
> I think it's just the style such things are written in --
> always explanatory, no action, quite densely written so
> that you must think about what you read. Like an entry
> in an encyclopedia. It's a lot more strenuous (sp?) than
> watching TV at least.
Soccer is strenuous, and lots of people do that for *fun*.
Maybe the subject matter of those dry textbooks just isn't fun for some
people.
-- Mark
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:23:46 -0400
From: Mark Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
I haven't read _Describing_Morphosyntax_, but I can easily believe
that it's dry; I mean, it's a dry title. It is certainly possible to
convey material that is deeply technical and still be entertaining at
the same time; an inability to wade through thick technical texts does
not automatically mean that the reader is unsuited for the material.
Context is also important. When diving right into a subject you don't
have some grounding in, you probably want to start with something a
bit lighter, and only then dig in to the drier texts.
I think popular treatments like Pinker's _Word's_and_Rules_ make a
good jumping off poiint for folks who are new to linguistics.
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:46:12 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:23:46 -0400, Mark Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I haven't read _Describing_Morphosyntax_, but I can easily believe
> that it's dry; I mean, it's a dry title. It is certainly possible to
> convey material that is deeply technical and still be entertaining at
> the same time;
See, to me, _DM_ *is* entertaining, and exciting, and fun, as is Comrie's
_Language Universals and Linguistic Typology_. Seeing which way the plot
twists come, and from where, is about as intriguing and involving as in
most novels. It's just that the plot twists come from the odd methods
employed by languages, rather than the odd methods employed by characters.
Plus, there's the sense of actually feeling my brain get stimulated to
think in new ways, and grow fuller, with every paragraph -- much like each
bite of a gourmet meal stimulates my taste buds and fills my stomach.
Eventually, I hope to crap out a conlang that is as satisfying.
Paul
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:50:15 -0500
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
J. K. Hoffman said:
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:34:45 -0500 From: "Mark P. Line"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: CHAT: _Describing Morphosyntax_
>>
>>
>> What is it exactly that makes you experience these books as 'dry'?
>> I'm curious because I can easily imagine that most non-linguists find
>> much of what I write 'dry' in the same way. But I wouldn't know where
>> to start to make it any wetter...
>>
>>
>> -- Mark
>>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Well, to a certain extent, I think it's unavoidable. I mean, there's
> all this technical jargon that, frankly, is quite necessary to the work.
> I guess, in the case of _Describing Morphosyntax_ it started off quite
> well, but went on and on describing all these different parts of speech
> with very, very few examples most of which were quite hard for me to try
> and pronounce in my head. I'm sorry to admit, but I have neither the
> IPA nor the X-SAMPA chart memorized, so those references occasionally
> overwhelm me. And, it would have been nice if they at least *mentioned*
> the IPA chart in the introduction. I think the book was written with
> the idea that the reader had quite a bit of linguistic education
> already.
The IPA is for phonetic transcription, although the symbols are often
adopted for the representation of phonemes and morphophonemes when the 26
letters can't be made to suffice.
Payne's examples are phonemic or morphophonemic, not phonetic.
It's not necessary for you to be able to put specific sounds to the
examples he gives in order to understand the points he's making about
morphosyntax. (That doesn't mean you can do fieldwork in morphosyntax
without a good grasp of phonetics and phonology, of course.)
In any event, you couldn't know how to pronounce his phonemic
representations without seeing a phonological description of the language
in question.
> I've slogged my way through several textbooks and other
> books, mainly introductory texts, just trying to get a handle on all the
> technical jargon that's required to adequately describe even a "simple"
> language, if such a thing exists.
So far, there's no adequate description of any natlang using any kind of
technical jargon or formalism -- so you may be setting a standard for
yourself that even descriptive linguists don't set for themselves.
-- Mark
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:52:01 -0500
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
Roger Mills said:
>
> Hmm, otherwise known as SDI, or "Star Wars", of which, mercifully, we
> haven't heard must recently.
Which doesn't mean it isn't there, of course. The Tesla deathray lives!
-- Mark
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:00:56 -0500
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlanging has the Hacker nature? (was Re: CHAT: music // was Leaf script)
Paul Bennett said:
>
> Interestingly, you've nailed the much more verbose description by Eric S
> Raymond of what makes a truly great computer programmer/hacker. Also
> listed among the traits are a tendency to be more liberal in sexual
> attitudes,
Yes.
> a disregard for rules that get in the way of doing fun work,
Yes.
> a love of spicy food,
Yes. Designing, preparing and eating.
> an interest in the martial arts,
Yes.
> an appreciation of word-play,
Word-play? Me?
> and a feeling that the line between work and play can be blurry.
You mean this list isn't work for everybody like it is for me?
> I wonder how many of ESR's "hacker" traits tend to bleed over into
> conlangers?
I was a linguist who needed a paying job so he realized his true hacker
nature and made a lot of money and then went back to linguistics and is
now a hacker linguist, hacking science and software with language and
hacking language with science and software. *shrug*
-- Mark
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:44:07 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark P. Line" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: August 29, 2004 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs
> Roger Mills said:
> >
> > Hmm, otherwise known as SDI, or "Star Wars", of which, mercifully, we
> > haven't heard must recently.
>
> Which doesn't mean it isn't there, of course. The Tesla deathray lives!
>
>
> -- Mark
>
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