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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Hebrew spelling
From: David H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: More orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization)
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: More orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization)
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Hebrew spelling
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Hebrew spelling
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. LLL Weekly Update #10/2004
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: CHAT: Unconventional pronoun systems show us yours!
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: CHAT: Unconventional pronoun systemsshow us yours!
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: More orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization)
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Old French vs. Modern French: a few notes
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Orthography help
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Orthography help
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: LaTeX for Conlangers -- Question posted
From: Christophe Grandsire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: Christophe Grandsire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Flag: Countdown to Voting
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Thoughts on my Gwr Language
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Orthography help
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: A noun class system
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: [4:] ~ [r]
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: The fourteen vowels of English?
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. OFFLIST: Oops!
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Anyone in Gothenburg this week?
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:14:59 -0400
From: David H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hebrew spelling
Thanks! Sorry for all these questions, but I have another few...the
word "and" is "ve" I believe, but I've heard it pronounced "u" quite a few
times...are there any rules governing which I should use? Also, the same
for the word "le" meaning "to" (in front of nouns, not verbs), I've heard
it pronounced "li" infront of a few nouns, for example "li-r'khov" (to the
street).
Thanks
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:19:47 -0400
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:39:16 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what is the difference between Subjects, Objects, and something that might
be confused with them?
Think about them as describing the role of a noun phrase in relation to the
verb. Check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension
- Jeffrey
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:19:33 +0300
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization)
John Cowan wrote:
> Isaac A. Penzev scripsit:
>
> > As for RF, the situation is different. It is ***forbidden by the federal
> > law*** to use any other alphabet than based on Cyrillics, for the
> > languages that have any official status in Russian Federation. Kazan
> > Tatars want to change to Turkish-based Latinics, but Moscow does not
> > permit to do it officially. The same is with Karelan - being written
> > in Latinics, it demands official status (for now they use Finnish and
> > Russian as official langauges of Republic of Karelia), bu it cannot
> > be given until they change to Cyrillics.
>
> I don't understand this. If only Cyrillic-script languages can be
> official, how can Finnish be official? Is it simply because it has
> official status in Finland and is written in Latin script there?
I may be misinformed about that issue. I have a bad habit to store in my
mind tons of information without remembering the original sources. As for
the issue about Karelian language status, I read it somewhere on the Web
some time ago, and I think it was a kind of Karelian nationalist site, so I
would give little credit to it...
...I did some googling (in Russian) and came to conclusion that Finnish has
no official status in Republic of Karelia.
> But Tatar has official status in China and is written in Latin
> script there, so it seems that the law is being inconsistently
> applied.
Well, that's Russia - why are you looking for consistency or logic?...
> > They all seem nice and convenient (even a bit strange but etymologicly
safe
> > Azeri), tho often totally incompatible with each other. I think it was
done
> > for hardening mutual understanding between Turkic ethnoi.
>
> Actually, I suspect that it was just a product of committees working
> independently and without coordination.
You may be right, but one can never exclude evil will while talking about
Bolsheviks :))
> (Note: "harden" in English is
> not a general causative, but applies only to the literal sense of "hard" =
> "firm"; it cannot be applied in the sense "make [something] difficult".)
Note taken into consideration. Hope may be forgiven as written at 11:28pm ;)
Best wishes,
-- Yitzik
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:37:49 +0300
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization)
Racsko Tamas jazdy:
> On 11 Sep 2004 "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Btw, AFAIK, Cyrillics are still in use in Transnistria (a rebel region
> > on the left bank of Dniester).
>
> But there was an ethnic segregation after 1990, I am right? AFAIK the
> Russian is the "official" language there. Are Rumanian (Moldavan) used
> in present Transnistria?
At least I saw a photo in a newspaper: a person was standing next to the
entrance to an official building in Transnistria, and the plate was written
in Russian and Moldavan (in Cyrillics). The picture was taken in 2002. I
have no official information.
> And do you know what is the situation with the third autonomous
> region, Gagauzia? Are they still use their Cyrillic script?
Again, I have no official information. But I saw some Gagauz publication on
the Web in Latin script.
> In fact, Rumanian literary language is an amalgam of Muntenian
> (=Bucharest area, the heart of Wallachia) and southern Transsylvanian
> dialects. The Moldovan contribution is very little.
That is why Moldovans themselves still cannot decide whether M. is a
different lg than Romanian, or not. LOL
> Until this point, politics are not involved. Therefore I stop here,
> because later consideriationas on Moldovan Rumanian are connected with
> the questions of two separate Mordvin, two separate Zyrian and six(!)
> separate Ostyak etc. literary norms. And this is politics, indeed.
Indeed.
> > I just said I find Moldovan Cyrillics nice looking and easy.
>
> I am a Slav
And I'm not :))) Still I find Cyrillic alphabet in many ways more convenient
for many lgs than Latin one.
> and I am positively biassed against Cyrillics: it is the
> invention of the "Slavic genius". But I try to be objective in my value
> judgements. Cyrillic script is a religious import in Rumanian and that
> time when the Old Church Slavonic was retired as a liturgic language in
> Rumanian Church, it was the time also for Cyrillics to retire.
I loath talking about politics, even if it is language politics...
> The return of the post-Soviet nations to the Latin script is an act
> of derussification
good luck
> From this ground, Zyrians also
> could return to Abur (if they would be permitted to do this).
do they want to?
> The creation of a
> distinct Permiak literary language is rather a political than a
> lingustic issue.
I agree.
Anyway, I find your msgs a bit more ardent than it is necessary. Let's stop
here. Much shit happens in the world. Let's talk about more pleasant things,
e.g. conlangs.
Best wishes,
-- Isaac
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:51:19 +0300
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hebrew spelling
Katav David H:
> Thanks! Sorry for all these questions, but I have another few...the
> word "and" is "ve" I believe, but I've heard it pronounced "u" quite a few
> times...are there any rules governing which I should use?
It becomes u- in front of b (>v), m and p (>f), and before a syllable with
vocal schwa (which becomes silent here):
ben 'son' > uven
melekh 'king' > umelekh
perahh 'flower' > uferahh
rehhov /[EMAIL PROTECTED]:b/ 'street' > urhhov
Sh(@)mu'el > uShmu'el
> Also, the same
> for the word "le" meaning "to" (in front of nouns, not verbs), I've heard
> it pronounced "li" infront of a few nouns, for example "li-r'khov" (to the
> street).
Be more attentive: I said it in the previous msg. [EMAIL PROTECTED]@- > CiC-.
Phonemicly
"le" is /l@/, so */[EMAIL PROTECTED]@xo:b/ > /lirxo:b/
> Thanks
Al lo davar.
-- Isaac (that's my fifth msg today, so I become silent)
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:04:55 +0300
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hebrew spelling
On Sep 12, 2004, at 9:14 PM, David H wrote:
> Thanks! Sorry for all these questions, but I have another few...the
> word "and" is "ve" I believe, but I've heard it pronounced "u" quite a
> few
> times...are there any rules governing which I should use? Also, the
> same
> for the word "le" meaning "to" (in front of nouns, not verbs), I've
> heard
> it pronounced "li" infront of a few nouns, for example "li-r'khov" (to
> the
> street).
> Thanks
Okay, let's see...
"and" /v@/ is pronounced [u] if:
1. it's followed by another labial consonant: /b/, /p/, /m/, or /v/
or
2. it's followed by a consonant + /@/ (schwa/sheva')
So for instance:
/v@/ + /vilon/ = [uvilon] "and a curtain"
/v@/ + /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ = [EMAIL PROTECTED] "and a street"
/l@/ turns into [li] under situation #2 above, hence _lirehhov_ "to a
street".
-Stephen (Steg)
"they were all in love with dying
they were drinking from a fountain
that was pouring like an avalanche
coming down the mountain"
~ 'pepper' by butthole surfers
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:15:27 +0200
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: LLL Weekly Update #10/2004
Hallo!
And another week has passed...
And while the lostlangs mailing list has been HUMMING, there is
actually little to report because most posts have been off-topic.
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:25:31 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: Unconventional pronoun systems show us yours!
Hmm, spoke too soon--- in answer to Wesley Parish I wrote:
> That's delicious. I can see a need for such a pronoun in Old Kash, and
> perhaps still in related languages spoken in countries where class
> distinctions are more rigorously observed than in Holunda. While royalty
> and
> the peerage don't socialize a lot with the lower orders, it's quite
> possible
> that one might have a lover or f*ck-buddy of lesser status...(etc.)...
> (Adds to To-do List--- hmm, nom. _tis_,
That has to be _tisa_; I discovered that "tis" already exists, as an
affective word for "tickle". No doubt an amusing connection, but hardly
appropriate.........(other forms remain as given in the original email, just
in case you wondered)
>The word is related to _sisa_ 'love'.
> But we still need a lower-to-higher pronoun for non-sexual
> relationships...)
That will be: prakambi, contracted from pra+kambra+mi HON-friend-my, but now
monomorphemic, i.e. the genitive is prakambiyi, dat. prakambiye, acc.
prakambin; plural prakambila etc.; takes a verb in the 3d person of course.
Both forms all but dead in Holundan Kash--the oldest/most fuddy-duddy
aristos are always pleasantly surprised when someone uses prakambi; their
children/grandchildren couldn't care less... tisa is still used but
nowadays almost always with humor or irony on both sides, esp. in the
diminutive form _ti�i(mi)_ (rare gen. ti��, dat. ti��), acc. ti�in ~cin
(cimbi).
The only title in general use is: karumbi = karun+mi 'my lord' when
addressing the karun (the ruler, "duke" more or less), and it too has become
monomorphemic
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:42:32 -0400
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: Unconventional pronoun systemsshow us yours!
Minhyan's pronouns are nine separate roots that vary for status and person.
It depends on the societal status level of the antecedant relative to the
speaker: an honorific pronoun, a peer pronoun and a humble pronoun.
Person - Gloss - Honorific - Peer - Humble
1 - "Me" - oridben - gara - aru
2 - "You" - arnodiad - calan - aba
3 - "Them" - trenorn - leweg - ono
Actual usage is too complex to be easily summarized. Traditions of Minhyan
discourse require the speaker to use the appropriate status pronoun for the
situation. It would be considered insulting for a king to address his page
using _arnodiad_ and considered rebellious of a minor to address a parent
using _calan_. A king would say to his betrothed, _Ama oridbehan calapan_
("I love you") if she were a noble and _Ama oridbehan abapa_ if she were a
peasant. Once she was his queen, he would say, _Ama oridbehan arnodiapad_.
(A king could say to his peasant bethrothed, _Abapa ama oridbehan_, "(It's)
you I love", if he wanted to place more emphasis on her.)
Pronouns are declined differently from nouns, preserving an early singular
vs. plural distinction that in nouns has evolved into an indefinite vs.
definite distinction.
Possessive pronouns are formed as if they were genitive adjectives.
Demonstratives "this" and "that" are formed from the pronouns (think of them
as meaning "this thing near me" and "that thing near you"). Thus _echipal
aruga_ means "my shirt" (or "our shirt") and _echipal aru_ means "this
shirt" (echipal aruge means "a shirt of mine").
Best regards,
Jeffrey
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:48:33 +0100
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization)
On 12 Sep 2004 John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Romanians have complained about this unification and have
> prevailed: Unicode contains s-comma and t-comma now, and there is also
> Latin-10 (ISO 8859-16), which contains both s- and t-comma.
I know it but this is the future (I mean implementation of Latin-
10 fonts e.g. in Microsoft products), but we were talking about the
1920's.
I think it is a bit anachronistic to project present
typographical nuances into the past. And my examples served only
to demonstrate the irrelevance of these nuances in the past and
their insignificance for another parties. Even the Rumanians would
be sensitive to their comma-below, Turks should not be -- just as
designers of Latin-2.
> As for RFC 1345, it's obsolete.
It is obsolete _now_. The importance of RFC 1345 is the fact
that comma-below and cedilla were not distinguished at all. And I
think it was similar in case of Atat�rk's spelling reform. I
mentioned RFC 1345 to demonstrate this parallelism.
However, as for obsolescence, I still use it here, e.g. when I
write Rumanian phrases like |S,coala Ardeleana(|.
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:18:58 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Old French vs. Modern French: a few notes
First of all, I should point out that I obscured the Old French orthography
in my eagerness to make the point about "manger pain" vs. "manger du pain";
that would have been "mangier pain" [mandZi'er pain] vs. "mangier del pain",
as "du" had not yet evolved.
Second, here's a more complete list of survivals from the old two-case
system. In addition to soeur and coeur and pretre, peintre and traitre
are also cases where the nominative displaced the oblique case. I am
no longer sure that presbytere represents the old oblique: it may be
a more recent (re)borrowing. The pairs copain/compagnon, gars/garcon,
patre/pasteur, chantre/chanteur, maire/majeur are all old
nominative/oblique forms that have become separate nouns; the triple
sire/sieur/seigneur (nom./obl./obl.) also belongs here, as does
on/homme.
The singular forms chapeau, chateau, and genou are all analogical
formations: the O.F. forms were chapel/chapeaus, chastel/chasteaus,
and genoil/genous, but the singulars were lost and new singulars
were made by back-formation.
Another example of English-like syntax from well into the Middle
French period is "Je que suis Fortune nommee", which matches
"I who am called Fortune" fairly well, and even "I who am Fortune
called" is possible in poetry (which this is); the modern French
syntax (as in "Moi, Fortune, je parlerai" from the same poem) is
impossible in English.
Finally, there are a whole bunch of inherited Old French words that
were replaced by Latinisms from the same root: antif>antique,
batoier > baptiser, beneic,on > benediction, cloufichier > crucifier,
excomengier > excommunicer, grief > grave, mecine > medecine,
rade > rapide, and treu" > tribut are some of the more notable ones.
Another of the same type is souef > suave; the Old French form got
into Middle English as swef, now lost; suave was borrowed by Modern
English. Glaive < Latin GLADIUM meant "lance" in Old French, but
was semantically reshaped to mean "sword", the same as the Latin word.
--
John Cowan www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Lope de Vega: "It wonders me I can speak at all. Some caitiff rogue did
rudely yerk me on the knob, wherefrom my wits still wander."
An Englishman: "Ay, a filchman to the nab betimes 'll leave a man
crank for a spell." --Harry Turtledove, Ruled Britannia
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:24:49 -0400
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Orthography help
The phonemic inventory of my new conlang, a language which I am deriving
from English, has the following consonants, and I need help on
orthography...
Stops: p /p/, m /m/, t /t/, n /n/, c /k/, h /?/
Fricatives: f /f/, s /s/, ll /K/, y /C/
Affricates: q /ts)/, tl /tK)/
Taps: r /4/
Laterals: l /l/
Approximants: w /P/
How could I represent /K/ and /tK)/ as non-digraphs?
Thanks,
Trebor
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:35:06 -0700
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Orthography help
Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The phonemic inventory of my new conlang, a language which I am deriving
from English, has the following consonants, and I need help on
orthography...
Stops: p /p/, m /m/, t /t/, n /n/, c /k/, h /?/
Fricatives: f /f/, s /s/, ll /K/, y /C/
Affricates: q /ts)/, tl /tK)/
Taps: r /4/
Laterals: l /l/
Approximants: w /P/
How could I represent /K/ and /tK)/ as non-digraphs?
g for /K/, j for /tK/, perhaps?
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:11:38 +0200
From: Christophe Grandsire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LaTeX for Conlangers -- Question posted
En r�ponse � Carsten Becker :
>Hey!
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/latex-for-conlangers/message/503
>I have posted that question already 4 weeks ago, but nobody has answered
>yet. So I just wanted to notify you about that question.
>
>-- Carsten
At the time I hadn't any idea how to reply to this question, so I waited
until others would reply. It didn't happen.
The thing is, you want something extremely complicated. But if you really
want it, I suggest you look at the inputenc and tipa packages and see how
they work. This may give you some ideas. But I warn you, it's complex.
Christophe Grandsire.
http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr
You need a straight mind to invent a twisted conlang.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:29:25 +0200
From: Christophe Grandsire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
En r�ponse � Jeffrey Henning :
>On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:39:16 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > what is the difference between Subjects, Objects, and something that might
>be confused with them?
>
>Think about them as describing the role of a noun phrase in relation to the
>verb.
Is Rodlox American? Is the education system where he lives so bad?
I mean, those are notions I learned in first year of primary school (age 6)
and used throughout my education in French, English and Spanish classes.
This is nothing against Rodlox. He isn't responsible if he wasn't given
that information before. But I shudder at the kind of education that leaves
such simple (and necessary if you want to be able to even begin analysing a
sentence) notions out.
A quick lesson using English:
I run: "I" is the subject of the verb "run".
I see the man: "I" is the subject of the verb "see", "the man" its object.
Those are the main ones. I'll let others without the filter of French
grammar (which I think classifies things a bit differently from English
grammar) to add on this.
Note however that the concepts of subject, object, etc... were made mainly
for Western Indo-European languages, and don't always map nicely onto other
languages. Even among European languages, there is already some variation.
Christophe Grandsire.
http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr
You need a straight mind to invent a twisted conlang.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:53:45 -0400
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
Christophe Grandsire wrote:
>
> Rodlox wrote:
>
> > what is the difference between Subjects, Objects, and
> > something that might be confused with them?
>
> Is Rodlox American? Is the education system where he
> lives so bad?
>
> I mean, those are notions I learned in first year of primary
> school (age 6) and used throughout my education in French,
> English and Spanish classes.
>
> This is nothing against Rodlox. He isn't responsible if he
> wasn't given that information before. But I shudder at the
> kind of education that leaves such simple (and necessary
> if you want to be able to even begin analysing a sentence)
> notions out.
In the United States, the education establishment in the
public schools (i.e. primary and secondary schools) considers
it old-fashioned to teach grammatical concepts such as
subject and object and how to analyse a sentence.
--Ph. D.
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:20:19 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Flag: Countdown to Voting
The voting form is ready, and no new flag submissions have been
received in the last few days, so it would appear that we're just
about ready to vote. Once voting begins, no new submissions will be
accepted.
If you are working on a flag that you would like to submit when it's
finished, this is your opportunity to say so. If there is anything you
wish to say or do before submissions close, now's your chance.
As it happens, I've (as previously mentioned) asked someone to help
design a flag with knotted tongues as the centrepiece, which I'm still
waiting to see. I won't insist that we wait for this if there's a
strong demand for voting to begin ASAP, but I've sent an email asking
for a timeframe estimate on it and will keep you informed.
Regardless of when voting begins, it will continue for a whole week.
Adrian.
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:26:59 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Thoughts on my Gwr Language
In the course of the current relay, I composed the first substantial (well,
60 or so words!) text in this language, whose existence I've known about
ever since the Kash were discovered. It's monosyllabic, tonal, analytical;
SVO, Adj-N, Possessor-Possessed. Almost no morphology, but lots of little
particles, lots of compounding and serial verbs-- rather like what I imagine
Chinese or Vietnamese to be like. (1)
The person who received my version found it easy to translate (as I knew it
would be), and commented that likes analytical languages, "wish[ing] they
were more popular among conlangers." It seems to be true that we don't
favor such languages (or do we, and I just haven't encountered many?); are
we so much in love with complexity?
Any thoughts or comments? Any suggestions as to how an apparently
uncomplex language might be jazzed up?
There is some historical morphology, because the proto-language was
basically CVCV(C). Modern speakers, however, would be completely unaware of
the relationship between llaq [d`_la?] (low-rising tone) 'tell a story,
narrate' and gu�ng or [EMAIL PROTECTED] [gu_1N] (low tone) 'a story', but in fact they
derive from *gul�p and *g�lap respectively. (This is the fun part, almost
every proto-form can have two outcomes, and as I work thru the list of
proto-forms I'm finding many homophonic outcomes.)
====================
(1) I've actually had some slight contact with Vietnamese-- a fellow student
and I once managed, with a dictionary, to mostly make sense out of a
linguistic article. (A _real_ one, not something by the pseudonymous Quang
Phuc Dong of the South Hanoi Institute of Technology :-) )
Favorite VN compound verb: suc phuc 'to recover one's forces', which will
find its way into Gwr eventually; and perhaps Ngo will be a family name.
Diem [dz)yEm], even with native -m > ng, is not phonologically possible in
modern Gwr.
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:21:58 -0500
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Orthography help
Trebor Jung wrote:
> How could I represent /K/ and /tK)/ as non-digraphs?
/K/ can be represented as a barred L: originally a lower case l with a
hyphen superimposed, which was easy to produce on a typewriter, but you
could use the Polish "l with stroke", if your software can handle it. In
newer versions of Word or WordPad under Windows XP you can type the
number 0142 followed by Alt+X to produce this character, or there's
probably a Polish keyboard layout that would have it. But if you need to
use unaccented characters of the Latin alphabet, it would be somewhat of
an arbitrary choice; "x" might be as good as any.
Some texts use a barred lambda for /tK)/, but this is a somewhat rare
character, probably best avoided if you're putting the text on a web
page or something. Of the remaining Latin letters, perhaps "k" could be
used for this.
I guess it depends on how your speech software deals with arbitrary
strings of characters: does it spell them out one letter at a time or
try to pronounce them as words? You could use "x" to represent /tK)/, so
that at least it would sound a bit like an affricate.
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:01:09 EDT
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A noun class system
Rihana-ye names are usually at least three syllables,but as all Rihana-ye
syllables are CV, these names are still of reasonable length. .Most names end in
-ba for males and -ka for females. There are also some adult names which end
in -da meaning child, usually because -da is the last part of a compound
which has been combined into a name. e.g. Pitibada which I usually translate
"Hotprince" literally Hot High Man Child.
(and really meaning "Prince Born to the Southern Consort"). There are also a
few male names ending in "vane"meaning "beard." This form is unusual,since
normalnouns end in
-a,but here the syllable ne- is really a postposition meaning below."
John Leland
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:00:52 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
Ph. D. wrote:
>
>
>In the United States, the education establishment in the
>public schools (i.e. primary and secondary schools) considers
>it old-fashioned to teach grammatical concepts such as
>subject and object and how to analyse a sentence.
>
>
>
Personally, I'd agree with that - but what about in language classes?
Surely it's neccesary to learn it there.(though, having said that, I've
just remembered that the main language learned is Spanish, which doesn't
have cases...)
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:02:22 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [4:] ~ [r]
On Sunday, September 12, 2004, at 05:49 , Muke Tever wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:43:53 -0400, Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> Since [4] is a tap, and [r] is a trill, wouldn't [4:] be essentially the
>> same as [r]? Or is there a difference?
>
> They might possibly be the same...
No, as I understand it, they cannot be the same. The [:] symbol denotes
_length_ or prologation of sound; it does not denote iteration. A tap - a
_single rapid_ contact with the roof of the mouth by the tongue - by its
very definition cannot be prolonged.
> but given the punctual nature of a tap, I'm not sure if [4:] could really
> be said to mean anything
Indeed, it cannot. Nor should [:] be confused with gemination ('twinning')
which is the sequence of two identical adjacent segments across a syllable
boundary within a single morpheme, e.g. Italian _notte_ /not.te/. I am not
aware of geminated flap, i.e. [4.4], but if it did occur that would,
presumably, be two taps (but I am open to correction on this).
A trill refers to any sound made by the rapid tapping of one organ of
articulation against another. The dental/alveolar trill could be
considered, I guess, as iterative tapping; but that is not a prolongation
of _a_ tap. Also while taps are confined to the
dental/alveolar/postalveolar and retroflex series, trills may be bilabial,
dental/alveolar/postalveolar or uvular. Further, trills may be
accompanied with friction, when they are known as fricative trills. AFAIK
a tap is just a very rapid stop with no friction possible. So taps &
trills are best considered IMO as different beasts.
> (though /4:/ might--and I wouldnt be surprised to find [r] there).
That's a whole different ball-game, as they say :)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:34:32 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The fourteen vowels of English?
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:42:11 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?q?Steven=20Williams?=
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I have a funny little split I noticed in my dialect
>(standard American, mild Southern influence). In
>certain words, I pronounce [&] something like [&@],
>and in others, it's straight [&]. Examples:
>
>/man/ [m&@n] (or [mn=] in compounds where it's
>unstressed)
>/calque/ [k&lk]
>/sat/ [s&t]
>/happy/ [h&.pi]
>/fare/ [f&r\] or [fEr\]
>/nab/ [n&@b]
>/nap/ [n&p]
>/hang/ [h&N] or [hEN]
>/nag/ [n&@g]
>/had/ [h&@d]
>/has/ [h&z]
>/ham/ [h&@m]
>
>I can't think of any minimal pairs, so this seems to
>be a complementary distribution, where [&@] is an
>allophone of [&] before nasals [m] and [n] and voiced
>plosives and [&] is the phonetic realization every
>where else. Depending on the stress of the word and
>personal whim, [&] before [N] and [r\] seems to be,
>allophonically, either [E] or [&]. I tend to lean
>towards [&] more in higher registers of speech, where
>I make an effort to be understood clearly, and [E] in
>fast speech, since it's easier to articulate quickly.
I've read of the minimal pair /k&n/ (modal verb) vs. /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ('to put into
cans'). Do you really have this?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:40:21 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OFFLIST: Oops!
Small mistake. The code is:
<a href="#" target="_blank">
The underscore before the word "blank" is important. Sorry!
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:02:57 +0200
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Anyone in Gothenburg this week?
On behalf of Arnt Richard (arntrich at stud ntnu no) and myself, is
there a chance of a conlang-meet in Gothenburg this week, preferably on
Wednesday? We'll be there thanks to classes held about/on computational
linguistics, courtesy of the Nordic Graduate School of Language
Technology <http://www.ngslt.org/>. He's there now and will be there the
whole week, while I will arrive early Wednesday and leave on Thursday.
So, are there any Swedish conlangers in the area this week?
I've already plotted in a trip to Liseberg Wednesday evening, and have
planned doing the museum-circuit for some of the time before that, but a
whole day is a mighty long time in a new city :)
t.
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