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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: The Power of Language
From: Adam Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Conlang Evolution Experiment Weekly Review 10
From: Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Orthography help
From: Irina Rempt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Pronouns in Split Ergative systems
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Orthography help
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: sexual dimorphism( was: So-called Alternative Lifestyles)
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Thoughts on my Gwr Language
From: Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. A few phonetics-related q's
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Dealing with an idea deficit...
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: sexual dimorphism( was: So-called Alternative Lifestyles)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: A few phonetics-related q's
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Text in Silindion PART I
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: A few phonetics-related q's
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Pronouns in Split Ergative systems
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Pronouns in Split Ergative systems
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Text in Silindion Part II
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: A few phonetics-related q's
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: A few phonetics-related q's
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: The Power of Language
From: Garth Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Dealing with an idea deficit...
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:08:12 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
>> > what is the difference between Subjects, Objects, and something that
might
>be confused with them?
>
>>Think about them as describing the role of a noun phrase in relation to
the
>verb.
>Is Rodlox American? Is the education system where he lives so bad?
currently, no.
>This is nothing against Rodlox. He isn't responsible if he wasn't given
that information before.
I learned how to read; but, rather than learn how to dissect sentances, I
took Honors Biology, so I could dissect ecosystems.
> But I shudder at the kind of education that leaves
such simple (and necessary if you want to be able to even begin analysing a
sentence) notions out
actually, in America (you mean the USA, yes?; or Canada or Mexico or Brazil
or...), there are varying levels...Level Four, Level Five, Level Six, etc
Level Four is average education, Five is what some call "special
education", and so on.
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:37:45 EDT
From: Adam Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Power of Language
Yeah, they're quite popular here, but I don't read them. My book(s) [I might
make a sequel or two] doesn't focus on what I think will happen, by the way.
It's just to show the reader how easily they could be deceived (even though
the book is more complicated than necessary); so many people expect the
antichrist to be obvious, and I want to show them that they will be the most
vulnerable to the antichrist instead of the least. Anyway, the reason why I don't
read them is for two reasons:
-My Church condemns the book because it teaches millenialism (although I'm
not sure if I agree with millenialism or not since I have no idea what it is)
-I won't bother trying to add more books to my long reading list - my life is
so busy that I started a novel this summer and am only half way through it
(and I've only read 50 pages since the first month I've had it!).
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:50:23 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
On Mon, Sep 13, 2004 at 11:08:09AM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> It has admittedly been . . . (pause for math) . . . 27 years since I
> was in the 4th grade, but at that time we did, in fact, study how to
> diagram sentences. In English class. In a government-funded school.
> In the USA.
Not that I feel such to be necessary. Far from it. Most people do
just fine with English - even formal written English - without knowing
such things. Even the finer prescriptive distinctions (e.g. "who/whom")
can be grasped without needing to know the historical function of
morphological case in the English language (e.g. "Use 'who' wherever you
would use 'he', and 'whom' wherever you would use 'him'." Also works
for 'his'/'whose').
-Marcos
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:12:10 +0000
From: Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Evolution Experiment Weekly Review 10
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On Monday 13 September 2004 10:12, Peter Bleackley wrote:
> The Conlang Evolution Experiment is now 10 weeks old!
> http://www.talideon.com/concultures/wiki/?doc=ConlangEvolutionExperiment
</lurk> Wow, I just saw that for the first time. That is a really neat
concept. Congrats!
> As we've now reached something of a milestone on the project, now seems
> like a good point to take stock a little. How do people think the project's
> going? I throw the floor open to discussion.
I congratulate you guys on that. I'm reading into it as I write this :)
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:24:02 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Remember that you are talking to a francophone, for whom this
procedure is
> essentially impossible due to the wide separation of spoken French
and written
> French, which Christophe has himself characterized as "two separate
languages"
> on many occasions.
But in spoken French, from what I've heard, the subject
vs object distinction is even marked with a case suffix!
Observe: /lOm/ "the man (ACC)", /lOmi/ "the man (NOM)",
as in /lOmi vwa lotROm/ "the man sees the other man". ;-)
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:26:36 +0200
From: Irina Rempt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Orthography help
On Monday 13 September 2004 20:22, Ray Brown wrote:
> Barred-l is a possibility for the voiceless lateral fricative. But
> IME those who have never or rarely heard the Welsh (or Nuguni)
> pronunciation and and do not know the spelling, more often than not
> think the sound is a badly pronounced [s] or [S], so something
> suggesting the sibilant sound is another possibility.
And indeed in Kirshenbaum's ASCII IPA it's s<lat>.
Valdyans think of it as a species of /l/ rather than a species of /s/
and write it with the 'aspirated' variant of the 'l' letter; I
transcribe it 'lh'.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 14-Jun-2004
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:29:30 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns in Split Ergative systems
Chris wrote:
<<Are there any natural languages with
a split ergative system divided like this where the split also occurs in
the pronoun system, with pronouns referring to humans taking accusative
marking, and pronouns referring to non humans taking ergative marking?>>
Man, if someone has an answer to this, I want to read it. I certainly
can't think of an off-hand... The only split-ergative languages I know (of)
are split based on tense, not animacy.
Anyway, based on what you wrote, though, a few questions:
(1) Do pronouns take case marking in the same way as nouns? Do they even
work the same way as nouns? If not, maybe the problem you posed
wouldn't be relevant.
(2) If animacy was important in the pronouns, could there be two sets of
pronouns--one for humans, and one for non-humans?
(3) Is the human/non-human distinction apparent anywhere else in the
language?
Anyway, though, if you wanted, say, a "normal" language where the only
difference was case-marking, though, a dual pronoun system could evolve.
Say you've got the following pronouns:
1) ma
2) li
3) ze
(Those are all singular.) Then you have the cases as follows:
Nom.: --
Acc.: -r
Abs.: -s
Erg.: -n
This'd only work if you have a marked absolutive. Anyway, for
humans, you'd have:
Subjective:
1) ma
2) li
3) ze
Objective:
1) mar
2) lir
3) zer
But then with non-humans (and this gets tough: Can you have non-human
first persons? Let's assume for the time being you can), you'd get:
Agentive:
1) man
2) lin
2) zen
Patientive:
1) mas
2) lis
3) zes
Then from there you can have sound changes which make all the pronouns
really different.
Anyway, what kind of system were you picturing?
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:30:15 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Orthography help
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:21:58 -0500, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Some texts use a barred lambda for /tK)/, but this is a somewhat rare
> character, probably best avoided if you're putting the text on a web
> page or something. Of the remaining Latin letters, perhaps "k" could be
> used for this.
ObAFMCL: In Trentish[1] I am using the lambda with stroke. A bigger demerit than its
rareness is the nonexistence of its capital; I am making do with capital lambda +
combining overline (producing, ideally, a character that is similar in outline to, but
not otherwise much like, a K rotated 90 degrees clockwise) or sometimes just plain
capital lambda.
*Muke!
[1] http://wiki.frath.net/Trentish
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:26:38 -0700
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
I really think this depends on the school and the
state and the specific teacher. I hate the way the
Europeans on this list seem to think that ALL American
schools will be horrible, no matter what. Both my
Elimentary School, Middle School and High School
English classes spent time talking about Grammar. And
I knew about Subjects, Objects and all the essential
before I became a conlanger and a linguist. I'd
appreciate a little less broad generalizations.
Thank you.
Elliott
--- "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Christophe Grandsire wrote:
> >
> > Rodlox wrote:
> >
> > > what is the difference between Subjects,
> Objects, and
> > > something that might be confused with them?
> >
> > Is Rodlox American? Is the education system where
> he
> > lives so bad?
> >
> > I mean, those are notions I learned in first year
> of primary
> > school (age 6) and used throughout my education in
> French,
> > English and Spanish classes.
> >
> > This is nothing against Rodlox. He isn't
> responsible if he
> > wasn't given that information before. But I
> shudder at the
> > kind of education that leaves such simple (and
> necessary
> > if you want to be able to even begin analysing a
> sentence)
> > notions out.
>
>
> In the United States, the education establishment in
> the
> public schools (i.e. primary and secondary schools)
> considers
> it old-fashioned to teach grammatical concepts such
> as
> subject and object and how to analyse a sentence.
>
> --Ph. D.
>
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:37:05 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: sexual dimorphism( was: So-called Alternative Lifestyles)
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In this case, the chief difference as compared to humans is that
elven females
> are on average only marginally smaller and weaker than males, and
have what
> human males might characterize as a disappointing lack of curves.
Awww... what's the point of having Elves if the women
aren't aethereal hotties? ;oP
If you are primarily referring to the mammaries, then
not all is lost, though. They're not the most important
curves on the female form after all. There's plenty of
opportunities for curves on the petite body plan, too...
For example, the Obrenai (of Planet Pii and Creative
Conclave fame), having close ties to antelopes, spend a
lot of their active time in "high gait", ie on the balls
of their feet. This gives the women a natural supermodel
allure. Who cares if the men look a tad effeminate? Who
looks at the men, anyway? ;-P
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:43:52 +0000
From: Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on my Gwr Language
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On Monday 13 September 2004 09:04, Isaac A. Penzev wrote:
> I'm afraid most ppl here are afraid to present anything too much analytical
> because the others would consider their projects "primitive" or "naive". A
> year ago I had an idea for a similar project but then changed to smth
> else...
>
> Yitzik
Yes, I too have noticed that. My only defense to that is the amount of time
spent on working on these types of languages. Personally I prefer a "simple"
type of language. My current baby is *very* simple compared to many of the
others projects, but I meant it to be that way, sort of as a secondary
language for me to use day to day.
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:58:23 +0200
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Subject / Object / ?
* Mark J. Reed said on 2004-09-13 21:50:23 +0200
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2004 at 11:08:09AM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Even the finer prescriptive distinctions (e.g. "who/whom") can be
> grasped without needing to know the historical function of
> morphological case in the English language (e.g. "Use 'who' wherever
> you would use 'he', and 'whom' wherever you would use 'him'." Also
> works for 'his'/'whose').
Pssh... Ding dong The Whom is dead!
<http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/%7Emyl/languagelog/archives/001437.html>
t.
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:12:25 -0400
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: A few phonetics-related q's
In a word like /anta/, would it be more likely that it's pronounced [anda]
or [an_0ta]?
If a language has a rule (a) /s/ is [S] before /i/ and (b) /s/ is [z]
intervocalically, would it be more likely that a word like /asi/ be
pronounced [azi] or [aZi] or even [aSi]?
French nasal vowels can differ from their oral counterparts, cf. [i] ~ [e~].
Is there an articulatory/acoustic precedence for this? What are some
oral-nasal correspondances for /i/, /e/, /A/, etc.?
How could vowel harmony (any type) develop in a language? Also, does anyone
have examples of e.g. vowel harmony in Niger-Congo (or Niger-Cordofanian?
etc.) languages? I've read Akan has this, but know nothing about it...
Trebor
"Oysters are a fine thing, so are strawberries: but mashed together?"
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:51:27 -0400
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Dealing with an idea deficit...
I don't know how I'm going to get my hands on a Braille copy of _Describing
Morphosyntax_, unfortunately, but maybe you guys could help?
I've been toying with a conlang derived from English for a little while. I
posted about it in the "Orthography help" thread. I've decided I'll make it
OSV or something and ergative (maybe even split!), as well as have
evidentials. It will be isolating (one more conlang to add to the apparently
short list of such conlangs) and use alot of compounding to build new words.
But now I'm stuck... I'm looking for suggestions to "jazz it up", as Roger
said... What are some interesting categories I could include wrt verbs,
e.g.?
Thanks,
Trebor
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:33:39 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: sexual dimorphism( was: So-called Alternative Lifestyles)
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:10 +0100, Chris Bates
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> This seems to be a common feature of elves in books: every author either
> describes them all as feminine or androgynous (and tall and thin and
> fair-haired also generally). What are the roots of this preconception?
> Are they based in the mythology of some culture, or are they from
> Tolkien, or some other author...?
Well, in Philippine folk mythology, the elves look just like regular
people, but range through a wide variety of heights, from inches high
to a little taller than most Filipinos. They are often fair skinned,
with yellow to brown hair. Many have "sharp eyes" (which i think means
the corners come to a point rather than rounded). A few of them have
gold teeth. Some, when a human marries them will turn dark and ugly.
They also often whistle to people to communicate.
The dwarves on the other hand are all very much the same, short, old
men, with big hands, and feet, exaggerated features. They live in the
earth and can give gifts, but often they own the fields and are
placated before a farmer would till his field.
--
Something gets lost when you translate,
It's hard to keep straight, perspective is everything
- Invisible ink - Aimee Mann -
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:57:45 -0600
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A few phonetics-related q's
On Sep 13, 2004, at 2:12 PM, Trebor Jung wrote:
> In a word like /anta/, would it be more likely that it's pronounced
> [anda]
> or [an_0ta]?
Of those two choices, [anda].
> If a language has a rule (a) /s/ is [S] before /i/ and (b) /s/ is [z]
> intervocalically, would it be more likely that a word like /asi/ be
> pronounced [azi] or [aZi] or even [aSi]?
Are other fricatives voiced between vowels? If so, I expect [aZi]. If
not, I'd probably still expect [aZi].
> French nasal vowels can differ from their oral counterparts, cf. [i] ~
> [e~].
> Is there an articulatory/acoustic precedence for this? What are some
> oral-nasal correspondances for /i/, /e/, /A/, etc.?
Had to look this one up. Nasalization of vowels reduces the amplitude
of the first formant (F1) and displaces it upwards. The frequency of F1
correlates with vowel height; the lower F1, the higher the vowel. So
raising F1 via nasalization can lower the vowel.
> How could vowel harmony (any type) develop in a language? Also, does
> anyone
> have examples of e.g. vowel harmony in Niger-Congo (or
> Niger-Cordofanian?
> etc.) languages? I've read Akan has this, but know nothing about it...
If a particular vocalic gesture (say, lip rounding) is preserved
through a following consonant, the next vowel will likely show residual
effects of this gesture as well. This is vowel harmony. African
languages are often characterized by tongue root harmony. Vowels can be
produced with the root of the tongue advanced or retracted [1]; if this
gesture is preserved through intervening consonants, the result is
tongue root harmony.
John Cowan has pointed out on several occasions that there seem to be
no genuine examples of vowel harmony as automatic, exceptionless
processes in any language; it always has the appearance of the
historical residue of some earlier productive process. Exceptions to
vowel harmony fall into three basic categories: 1) the domain of
harmony, or the stretch within which harmony is enforced: in some cases
harmony will span a whole word, in others only part of a word; 2) the
effects of harmony: in many vowel harmony languages there are "neutral"
vowels which do not show harmony alternations; and 3) lexical
exceptions: these typically involve loan words which are exempt from
harmony requirements.
[1] To feel tongue root advancement/retraction, try this. Find your
adam's apple and lightly press two fingers against your throat just
above it; you will be pushing on the tongue root. Now say the vowels
[i][I] several times in succession. You should feel the tongue root
harden and push against your fingers when you say [i] and relax when
you say [I]. This works best for native English speakers; I don't know
what the rest of you do, but I suspect that other Germanic languages
will show similar gestures.
Dirk
--
Dirk Elzinga
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"I believe that phonology is superior to music. It is more variable and
its pecuniary possibilities are far greater." - Erik Satie
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:13:19 -0700
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Text in Silindion PART I
This is the first portion of a Communion Liturgy in
Silindion. I'll post it in two parts, since in this
part I want to also introduce a bit about the
Silindic/Nestic religion. This will be found below.
To read the next part, see my next email.
I Henna Alarieli Eroliomma.
"The communion of Alarie and Erelion"
I Henna Alarie-li Erolion-mma.
the communion Alarie-GEN. Erelion-COMM.
SANTA-NOYONDO: (speaking)
Priest-celebrant:
Myenta monienta i vurm�n
"Hear now the story"
Myenta moni-e-nta i vurma-n
now hear-OPT.-2pl the story-GEN.
Alarieli t� yossar�n em� turnivi.
"Of Alarie who rules over night."
Alarie-li t� yo-tar-a-n em� turni-vi.
Alarie-GEN. who REL-rule-PRS.-3s on night-LOC.
1.1 L�oviss' auiyo Il� i �iss�an
"When God created the world"
L�ovissa a-kuiya-u Il� i �iss�-an
when AUG.-create-SUBJ.PST God the world-ACC.
limmo tilitti lin�m�a, maisseiri l�nd�a,
"by a vision of sound and a dream of music"
limmo tilit-ti linima-ya maiss�-ri lind�-ya
by vision-GEN. sound-ADJ. dream-GEN. music-ADJ.
anor� linya o nirnilievi
"An idea was in God's Thought
a-nor-� linya o nirnilie-vi
AUG.-be.located-PST. idea in God's.Thought-LOC
sin� ssa nenn� �u kerna semimari
"Such that the portion of (his) mind should be given"
sin� ssa ne-nnu �-u kerna semima-ri
such that given-OUGHT be-SUBJ.PST. portion mind-GEN.
ta yov� ant�ndi�"
"which was dedicated"
ta yova ant�nd-�-i�
which REL. dedicate-PASS.-PST.3s
no lirityanna nalatma, Alarienna.
"to thoughts of Light, to Alarie."
no lirit-ya-nna nalan-tma, Alarie-nna.
to thought-PL.-ALL. light-TOP. Alarie-ALL.
1.2 Si sill�ri� Silma kuiyar�.
"Thus Silma-Alarie was emmanated, having been
formed."
Si sill�-r�-i� Silma kuiya-r�
thus emmanate-PASS-PST.3s Silma create-PASS
This is the first portion of a Communion Liturgy in
Silindion. A word is necessary first about the
Silindic religion (or just the Nestic religion in
general).
The Silindic religion is a complex set of ideas
centered upon two main concepts, which are termed by
Silindic philosophers: ilieina "god-essence" and
ildiva "divinity".
Ilieina is the single transcedent God, the BEING of
God which exists wholly in the spiritual world. Ildiva
is the WILL of God which originates in God's mind and
gives rise to the world. It is his imminent divinity
which emanates in the world through his creations.
To the Silindi, whatever is in the world, is a product
of God's thought. The highest of his thoughts are the
Angels, the second highest are the Neste. As the
highest (or PRIMARY BEINGS OF DIVINITY), Angels are
those beings which most clearly emmanate the will of
God in their works. And it is due to this fact that
the Silindi worship the Angels. And through them, the
Silindi relate to God, who is unknowable to the them.
Anyways, that probably makes no sense...but that's the
intro.
In this Communion Liturgy, two things of note are
going on. The congregation hears the story of Alarie,
the Angel of Light and the Moon. She resurects the
Angel Erelion who has fallen in battle, and through
this resurection, the Silindi find hope for life
renewed in God. The second thing of note is that the
congregation then is given the Revelation of Trinity,
in which God, Erelion and Alarie are all shown to be
one in Divinity - Erelion and Alarie are merely
Emmanations of the Divinity (Ildiva,Will, Thought) of
God, and the Will of God (Ildiva) is just an
Emmanation of, or derivation of the Being (Ilieina,
Essence) of God.
I hope you enjoyed.
Elliott
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:30:31 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A few phonetics-related q's
Trebor wrote:
> In a word like /anta/, would it be more likely that it's pronounced [anda]
> or [an_0ta]?
It might depend on other tendencies in the language. Does assimilation in
general tend to be progressive-- i.e are there clusters of the sort /-bk-/ >
[-bg-]-- or regressive, i.e. the cluster /-bk-/ > [-pk-].
Nasal clusters however tend not to behave like stop clusters; the voicing
predominates, so I'd say [anda] is a more likely outcome.
But there are cases where nasals are lost or changed before voiceless
sounds, so even your [an_0ta] is not impossible. It would more likely lead
over time to something like [ahta] or [a?ta] or [at:a].
>
> If a language has a rule (a) /s/ is [S] before /i/ and (b) /s/ is [z]
> intervocalically, would it be more likely that a word like /asi/ be
> pronounced [azi] or [aZi] or even [aSi]?
Let's see if I can get this right.... It depends on the ordering of the
rules (that is, of the events).
Order A: Rule l. s > S before i
Rule 2. s > z between vowels
OK: Vsi will > VSi, while Vsa, Vsu, etc. will > Vza, Vzu etc. (The first
rule removes -si from the possible environments of rule 2). [S] and [s]
will presumably be in complementary distribution and so non-phonemic.
Order B. Rule 1. s > z between vowels
In this case a rule "s > S before i" is impossible, since all instances
of -VsV have been changed to -VzV; if you still want the fricative
pronunciation to occur, then Rule2 will have to be "z > Z before i" (This
all looks neater if you use distinctive feature notation)
>
> French nasal vowels can differ from their oral counterparts, cf. [i] ~
> [e~].
> Is there an articulatory/acoustic precedence for this? What are some
> oral-nasal correspondances for /i/, /e/, /A/, etc.?
>
I think that's a purely French phenomenon-- nasalized vowels all are lowered
i > E~, y > (the rounded version of E~), o > O~, some merge (e/a both > a~),
etc. My French is limited and I can't think of an instance of nasalized
/u/, are there any???
In Portuguese, the nasalized vowels are simply that: i :: i~, u :: u~ etc.
The motivation in French might have been that since nasalized vowels derive
from closed syllables ...VN# or ...VNC..., the lowering could be due to
generalized allophonic lowering of vowels in closed syllables.
> How could vowel harmony (any type) develop in a language?
I think it's basically a form of assimilation-- one vowel takes on qualities
of a following (or preceding) vowel; then over time it becomes part of the
morpheme structure rules, i.e. "all lexemes must have harmonizing (rounded,
or front, or back, or high/low) vowels."
Sorry, no info here on African languages.
> "Oysters are a fine thing, so are strawberries: but mashed together?"
You may know that some connoisseurs hold that the proper wine with oysters
is Sauternes, extremely sweet. I can't abide oysters, so have never put
this to the test. But Sauternes goes nicely with strawberries, so "huitres �
fraises", however outrageous, may not be impossible. If modern chefs can
combine steak and mango, nothing is forbidden :-)))))
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:48:45 +0100
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns in Split Ergative systems
As my lang is split-ergative, I have some thoughts on this:
where the split happens seems to depend on how the language is structured. Omeina
splits along noun/pronoun. Since the verbal system is structured around the notion of
incorporating auxiliary verbs, these take most of the syntactic stress. Sentences
without nominal objects have special object as well as subject markers. Since objects
are marked, the subjects don't need ergative markers.For instance:
Bere hartu dain (Nominal object)
"I see the bear"
[see] [bear] [I:subj - it:obj]
Hartoise bere nadi (Nominal active subject)
[bear+ergative] [see] [it:subj - I:obj]
"The bear sees me"
Bere nadi (Pronomial object and subject)
[see] [it:subj - I:obj]
"It/he/she sees me]
Mike.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Peterson
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: Pronouns in Split Ergative systems
Chris wrote:
<<Are there any natural languages with
a split ergative system divided like this where the split also occurs in
the pronoun system, with pronouns referring to humans taking accusative
marking, and pronouns referring to non humans taking ergative marking?>>
Man, if someone has an answer to this, I want to read it. I certainly
can't think of an off-hand... The only split-ergative languages I know (of)
are split based on tense, not animacy.
Anyway, based on what you wrote, though, a few questions:
(1) Do pronouns take case marking in the same way as nouns? Do they even
work the same way as nouns? If not, maybe the problem you posed
wouldn't be relevant.
(2) If animacy was important in the pronouns, could there be two sets of
pronouns--one for humans, and one for non-humans?
(3) Is the human/non-human distinction apparent anywhere else in the
language?
Anyway, though, if you wanted, say, a "normal" language where the only
difference was case-marking, though, a dual pronoun system could evolve.
Say you've got the following pronouns:
1) ma
2) li
3) ze
(Those are all singular.) Then you have the cases as follows:
Nom.: --
Acc.: -r
Abs.: -s
Erg.: -n
This'd only work if you have a marked absolutive. Anyway, for
humans, you'd have:
Subjective:
1) ma
2) li
3) ze
Objective:
1) mar
2) lir
3) zer
But then with non-humans (and this gets tough: Can you have non-human
first persons? Let's assume for the time being you can), you'd get:
Agentive:
1) man
2) lin
2) zen
Patientive:
1) mas
2) lis
3) zes
Then from there you can have sound changes which make all the pronouns
really different.
Anyway, what kind of system were you picturing?
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:19:22 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns in Split Ergative systems
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:52:28 +0100, Chris Bates
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Describing Morphosyntax says that ergative marking in split ergative
> systems is always applied to less animate entities, whereas more animate
> entities take accusative marking.
Yeah. That's one kind of split ergative marking.
[snip]
> Are there any natural languages with
> a split ergative system divided like this where the split also occurs in
> the pronoun system, with pronouns referring to humans taking accusative
> marking, and pronouns referring to non humans taking ergative marking?
Funnily enough, I was just reading Dixon on that very subject (ergativity
split by sematics of NPs) earlier today. There's a hell of a lot to
excerpt, but the short answer is yes, the split can occur anywhere in the
heirarchy:
(Most likely to be Nom/Acc)
1st person pronouns
2nd person pronouns
3rd person pronouns
Demonstratives
Proper nouns
Human
Animate
Inanimate
(Most likely to be Erg/Abs)
Note that Accusativity and Ergativity can spread each from their opposite
ends of the spectrum by differing amounts. You might have a system where
there are a middle few of the above that take *no* Accusative or Ergative
marking (i.e. you must use word order or some other feature to
disambiguate), or where a middle few might have a full tripartite system,
marking S, A and P each with their own marker.
Some examples...
Dyirbal:
1st & 2nd | 3rd
A -0 | -Ngu
S -0 | -0
O -na | -0
ACC | ERG
Cashinawa:
1st & 2nd | 3rd pronoun | 3rd noun
A -0 | habu~ | (nasalisation)
S -0 | habu | -0
O -a | haa | -0
ACC | TRIPART | ERG
In Yidiny, the patterning is
1st and 2nd pronouns - Accusative
Human deictics and interrogative pronoun - Tripartite
Inanimate deictics, proper names, kin terms - Tripartite with optional
drop of O marking
Inanimate interrogative, common nouns and adjectives - Ergative
In Nabe"b, it's
1st person - Tripartite
2nd, 3rd - Ergative
There are exceptions to this universal, but they're few in number.
Occasionally personal names rank above (more accusative than)
demonstratives and there are a few languages where 2nd is above 1st.
In addition to these and other Noun-based splits, Dixon covers a lot of
detail on Verb-based splits, both syntactically- and
semantically-controlled (which he labels split-S and fluid-S
resepectively). I can try to summarise those sections if you're
interested. Note that it's possible to have verbs split in one way and
nouns split in another way within the same language.
Paul
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:14:29 -0700
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Text in Silindion Part II
Here's the continuation of this part of the Silindic
Liturgy.
1.3 Eillini rutalo misis� Neilindun�rn�an,
"She planted the now fallen World-Tree"
a-illin-i rutalo mis-is� Neilindun�rn�-an
AUG.-plant-PST since fall-ANT. World.Tree-ACC.
v� li�ri� no eni filis� liu
"As it was shown to her having come"
v� li�-r�-i� no e-ni fil-is� liu
as show-PSS-PST.3s to HER-DAT. come-ANT. perf.prtc.
ka i semimalim Ileiri.
"From the mind of God"
ka i semima-lim Il�-ri
from the mind-ABL. God-GEN.
1.4 R�ng�a, eilniosseint� i hyoinya-ma
"Then she caused its blossoms to be silver"
R�ng�a, a-ilniossein-ti i hyoi-nya=ma
Then AUG.-silver.make-PST. the
blossom-its=pl.clitic
n' eilnorildissa, sin� ssa silint�-vor�
"And made them white,so that they might shine"
n� a-ilnorild-i=ssa, sin� ssa sil-i-nt�=vor�
and AUG.-white.make-PST.=them such that
shine-SBJ.-3pl=might
ono turn�n seiniuhyari
"Through the night of the void"
ono turni-n seiniuhya-ri
through night-ACC. void-GEN.
talim yov� ahwil� i eiss�.
"From which the world had come."
ta-lim yova a-fil-i i eiss�.
which-ABL. REL. AUG.-come-PST. the world
1.5 Iento hyoi-m� i nalni eisseiri
"Those blossoms were the light of the world"
Ie-nto hyoi=m� i naln-i eiss�-ri
Be.PST-3pl blossom=that the light-ESS. world-GEN.
tam� anyenunto i vaur�.
"And then the angels rejoiced"
tam� a-nyen-u-nto i vauro-i
"and.then AUG.-rejoice-SBJ.PST-3pl the angel-PL.
1.6 Sin�, amaldiass' Il�,"
"Therefore, God became glad,
Sin�, a-maldiat-si Il�
therefore AUG-glad.become-PST God
mennass� �u tiltinya �andi,
"because his vision was reality"
mennassa �-u tilti-nya �and-i,
because be-SBJ.PST vision-HIS reality-ESS.
n' �unto i lir�tyanya
"And his thoughts were"
n� �-u-nto i lir�t-ya-nya
and be-SBJ.-PST the thought-PL-HIS
ilmasseind� m�ss�u v�uri�,
"being made corporeal in Angelic Form"
ilmassein-d� mass�-u vauro-ye,
body.make-PSS body-INSTR angel-ADJ.
tarand� em� nisievinya.
"Rulers over his dominion."
tarando-i em� nisien-vi-nya
ruler-PL.ESS on dominion-LOC.-HIS
There is more to this liturgy, but that's all for
right now. I hope you enjoyed.
Elliott LAsh
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:03:09 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A few phonetics-related q's
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:30:31 -0400, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Trebor wrote:
>
>> In a word like /anta/, would it be more likely that it's pronounced [anda]
>> or [an_0ta]?
>
> It might depend on other tendencies in the language. Does assimilation in
> general tend to be progressive-- i.e are there clusters of the sort /-bk-/ >
> [-bg-]-- or regressive, i.e. the cluster /-bk-/ > [-pk-].
>
> Nasal clusters however tend not to behave like stop clusters; the voicing
> predominates, so I'd say [anda] is a more likely outcome.
And [anda] is what happens in Modern Greek, IIRC.
> But there are cases where nasals are lost or changed before voiceless
> sounds, so even your [an_0ta] is not impossible. It would more likely lead
> over time to something like [ahta] or [a?ta] or [at:a].
Or [a~ta], of course?
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
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FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:30:00 -0700
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A few phonetics-related q's
--- > > But there are cases where nasals are lost or
> changed before voiceless
> > sounds, so even your [an_0ta] is not impossible.
> It would more likely lead
> > over time to something like [ahta] or [a?ta] or
> [at:a].
In Nindic, I have /anta/ becoming [at:a] first and
then, diachronically, /aTa/, but that takes a while.
Elliott Lash
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:44:01 -0700
From: Garth Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Power of Language
Adam Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious wrote:
> Yeah, they're quite popular here, but I don't read them. My book(s)
> [I might make a sequel or two] doesn't focus on what I think will
> happen, by the way. It's just to show the reader how easily they could
> be deceived (even though the book is more complicated than necessary);
> so many people expect the antichrist to be obvious, and I want to show
> them that they will be the most vulnerable to the antichrist instead of
> the least. Anyway, the reason why I don't read them is for two reasons:
>
> -My Church condemns the book because it teaches millenialism (although
> I'm not sure if I agree with millenialism or not since I have no idea
> what it is)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:51:45 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Dealing with an idea deficit...
Trebor wrote:
<< I don't know how I'm going to get my hands on a Braille copy of
_Describing
Morphosyntax_, unfortunately, but maybe you guys could help?>>
I don't know if you're at or associated with a university, but I remember
when I
was at Berkeley and working for the DSP (Disabled Students Program), if
someone
who was visually impaired wanted a given text, no matter what it was, they
would
either come up with a Braille or spoken version of the book--free of charge.
(Well,
except for the cost of the book, of course.)
<<But now I'm stuck... I'm looking for suggestions to "jazz it up", as Roger
said... What are some interesting categories I could include wrt verbs,
e.g.?>>
I don't know if you saw the reply I made to Roger's post, but what you should
look
at are the many different types of verbs and how different languages deal
with
each type. An invaluable resource whose name I forget and which I'd love to
have
is a book that gives every type of verb in American English. I think there
are something
like 150 different types of verbs that this author identifies, and she (I
know the author
is female) gives examples of each and how specifies how exactly they're
different.
That's what to do with verbs, in my opinion.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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