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There are 21 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: New Language!
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Conlang flag voting
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: New Language!
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: tongue twisters
From: David Barrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: OFFTOPIC: gernikako arbola
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: CONLANG Digest - 12 Sep 2004 to 13 Sep 2004 (#2004-256)
From: Tamara Woodcock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: CONLANG Digest - 12 Sep 2004 to 13 Sep 2004 (#2004-256)
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Dealing with an idea deficit...
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: English word order and bumper stickers
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: tongue twisters
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Italic Greek
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: tongue twisters
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: English word order and bumper stickers
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: ! Re: Subject / Object / ?
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: OFFTOPIC: gernikako arbola
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Italic Greek
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. fragments of a creole
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. New Language - Examples
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:47:49 EDT
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: New Language!
In a message dated 9/14/2004 5:45:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>The main messiness is the lack of marking of proper nouns, which are
>sandwiched between accusative systems (so the lack of marking doesn't
>occur where the divide does) and also the fact that some 3rd person
>pronouns are ergative even though things further down the scale from
>them are accusative.
Deviations from the hierarchy are not unheard of. RMW Dixon's book
_Australian Languages_ mentions the system in Diyari:
(A) An abs/erg system for male personal names and singular common nouns
(B) A nom/acc system for nonsingular 1st & 2nd person pronouns
(C) A tripartite system for female proper names, nonsingular common nouns,
and other pronouns.
Doug
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:49:24 -0400
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag voting
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:08:10 -0400, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>We've done without a flag for a while; we could do without a flag for a while
>longer if need be. There should be a "none of the above" option
>on the ballot, as "no award" on the Hugo Award ballot. One can rank "none
>of the above" higher than some or all of the candidates if some (or all)
>are entirely unsatisfactory.
That's an interesting idea. While there are many flags I would be happy with (and
will vote for), I also prefer no flag at all instead of some of the suggestions.
- Jeffrey
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 02:15:53 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: New Language!
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Bates <
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:40 PM
Subject: New Language!
> I've started the first language in a long time that I'm happy with. :) I
> start quite a lot but most of them strike me as unsatisfactory pretty
> quickly,
I know the feeling.
> and I generally become bored or depressed trying to fix them,
> but my latest is the first I've been remotely happy with in years. I've
> nicked a few bits from basque (mainly some ideas from the basque verbal
> system), from Hungarian, and a few things from other places...
> The reason I was asking about split ergative systems before is because
> my new language has got one, and its slightly messy, and probably breaks
> the universal about animacy and split ergative systems.
I don't see a problem.
(even the universe breaks universal laws - look at singularities).
> Its split as
> follows:
[sorry for my snipping things that I'm still learning, and thus wouldn't be
able to productively help with]
> Phonology wise it isn't amazingly interesting, apart from the fact it
> has no bilabials or labiodentals whatsoever (no p, b, m, f, v, w...) but
" y goodness - no eanut utter?" :)
(sorry).
> it does have a set of dental fricatives (which I decided not to spell
> using the handy unused letters f & v because that would be too easy).
> If anyone's interested I'll post some examples when I've made some good
> ones... or maybe a babel text. :)
um, if I might be so bold as to suggest a few things to start with...
1) "You ain't nothing but a hound dog" (Elvis)
2) "Live long and prosper" (Spock)
3) "We must either find a way, or make one." (Hannibal)
4) "I am not a crook" (Nixon, I think)
5) "Read my lips" (Bush)
how're those? *curious*
>
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:37:45 -0500
From: David Barrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: tongue twisters
David Peterson wrote:
>Philip wrote:
>
><< I heard that it's [b] word(?)-initially and [B] in other positions.>>
>
>This is correct. Same is true for all other voiced stops.
>
>-David
>
>P.S.: When I hit "reply", it went straight to your address, Philip.
>
>
>
It's also [b] after [m]
cambio ['kam.bjo] enviar [Em.'bja4]
David Barrow
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:54:33 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC: gernikako arbola
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:26:38 +0300, Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Poster: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC: gernikako arbola
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sep 14, 2004, at 6:07 PM, Christophe Grandsire wrote:
> > En r�ponse � Chris Bates :
> >> I was just reading about this... I've never heard of any government
> >> apart from this one (the old Basque system) which actually held its
> >> meetings under a tree...
>
> > As the story goes, Saint Louis rendered justice under a tree :) .
>
> In the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), book of _Shofetim_ ("Judges"), the
> chieftain(ess?) Devora is described as judging the people underneath
> her very own personal tree.
>
> -Stephen (Steg)
> "the truth is he's a punk."
> ~ law and order
>
Speaking of Significant meeting trees, the first mass said in the
Monterey area in 1602 by the Spanish was held under the spreading
branches of a Quercus agrifolia - Coast Live Oak. The tree doesn't
exist there any more, but there is a piece of its trunk preserved in
the Royal Presidio Chapel not too far from where the tree once stood
(it almost got washed out to sea never to be seen again... they found
its trunk floating in the bay once, and hauled it back to shore)
--
Something gets lost when you translate,
It's hard to keep straight, perspective is everything
- Invisible ink - Aimee Mann -
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:09:03 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
I've added a new flag - with a celtic knot in it - now present on the
flags display page:
http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/conlangflag.htm
Unless there are any objections, I intend to close submissions and
get the voting started approximately 24 hours from now. In the event
that someone likes the idea of the new flag I've added, but doesn't
like the colours, this gives them a chance to submit a variation
re-coloured to their taste.
Adrian.
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:31:14 -0700
From: Tamara Woodcock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CONLANG Digest - 12 Sep 2004 to 13 Sep 2004 (#2004-256)
I'm working on my first conlang. I write sci-fi as a hobby, and I
decided that my xeno civilizations simply must have languages to go
with the cultures. So this will be the first of a few languages for
my own use. But I want to do it right, not just the occassional
word or two like you usually find in sci-fi. I want a "real"
language.
In roman ornthology (is this the right word?), the consonants are
symbolized as h, k, l, m, n, p, w, v, and a stop symbolized as `
that acts as a consonant in syllable formation. These are
pronounced as they would sound in American English. The vowels
represented as a (Alone), e (bEt), i (bEE), o (Obey), u (cOOl), �
(AH), � (hoorAY), � (more stretched out than the short form), �,
(just more stretched out than the short form) and � (also just more
stretched out than the short form). And then dipthongs ae (EYE), ai
(Ice), ao (hOW), au (hOUse), ei (EIght), eu (eh-oo but run together
as a single sound), iu (fEW), oi (vOIce), ou (bOWl), ui (oogOOEY but
pronounced as a single sound). The short forms are more common than
the long forms of the vowels, and single vowels are about evenly
distrubuted with dipthongs.
The stop and v can never start a word, but can start a syllable.
Basic syllable formation is (C)V.
Root words are two syllables. Other words are compounds of the
roots.
What I need to learn to create is the rest of the grammar structure.
Would it make sense to have verbs to be also simply compounds of the
roots? Is it necessary to have pronouns or indicators for
adjective/adverb, tense, etc. How would a langauge that is context
driven (without these written indicators) evolve to be used by a
high-tech society, with a rich written history? I'm familiar only
with English. My 3 years of Latin Studies in high school were
merely to have a nice afternoon nap. And my Spanish consists of
ordering beer when I go to Juarez for the occassional weekend.
-Tamara
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:20:59 -0400
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CONLANG Digest - 12 Sep 2004 to 13 Sep 2004 (#2004-256)
Tamara Woodcock wrote:
>
> I'm working on my first conlang. I write sci-fi as a hobby, and I
> decided that my xeno civilizations simply must have languages to go
> with the cultures. So this will be the first of a few languages for
> my own use. But I want to do it right, not just the occassional
> word or two like you usually find in sci-fi. I want a "real"
> language.
>
> In roman ornthology (is this the right word?), the consonants are
Perhaps you are looking for "orthography"?
> [snip]
>
> What I need to learn to create is the rest of the grammar structure.
> Would it make sense to have verbs to be also simply compounds of the
> roots? Is it necessary to have pronouns or indicators for
> adjective/adverb, tense, etc. How would a langauge that is context
> driven (without these written indicators) evolve to be used by a
> high-tech society, with a rich written history? I'm familiar only
> with English. My 3 years of Latin Studies in high school were
> merely to have a nice afternoon nap. And my Spanish consists of
> ordering beer when I go to Juarez for the occassional weekend.
It's not necessary to have pronouns or tense. Natural languages use
many different methods to indicate such things. It is helpful to learn
a little bit about languages in different language families to see how
they handle such things. May I suggest the books _Languages_and_
their_Speakers_ and _Languages_and_their_Status_? Both books
are written for the general reader. Each covers several languages
each in a different family. Not the entire grammar is covered, but just
some aspects. Both books are edited by Timothy Shopen and
published by the University of Pennsylvania Press (ISBNs 0-8122-1250-9
and 0-8122-1249-5 respectively).
-Ph. D.
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:46:07 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Dealing with an idea deficit...
I.K. Peylough wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:13:19 -0400, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >That's similar to what the person I mentioned who was doing the Venn
> >diagrams was doing.
> Andrew Patterson endipatterson [at] YAHOO [dot] COM
>
> There are a number of messages earlier this year. One (from May 2) is at
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-
> bin/wa?A2=ind0405A&L=conlang&P=R6001&D=0&O=D
>
> You may have to copy and paste (or retype) it.
> This contains the link:
> http://www.geocities.com/endipatterson/Catenative.html
> but I haven't checked to see if it's still valid.
>
Many thanks! Yes, the latter URL is still valid. A very interesting
site/concept, even if one can nitpick here and there.
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:34:08 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
Adrian wrote:
<< I've added a new flag - with a celtic knot in it - now present on the
flags display page:
http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/conlangflag.htm>>
I don't like the heads that much, but I really like the design. The green
is kind of jarring. I have no suggestions on what color might look better,
though.
I'm all for starting voting ASAP. What do you think about the "none of the
above" option, though? Or perhaps "no designs save for the above", and if
that one's listed first, then it would be interpreted as "none of the above"?
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:11:42 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English word order and bumper stickers
On Tuesday, September 14, 2004, at 05:51 , Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 04:43:23PM +0100, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>> Staving Elliot Lash:
>>
>>> I second this. In Hebrew:
>>>
>>> Baruch ata adonai
>>> blessed you Lord
>>>
>>> "Blessed are you Lord."
>>>
>>> Jewish Prayers regularly begin with this Blessing from
>>> the Worshipers to God.
>>
>> And in the Catholic Mass
>>
>> Blessed are You Lord, God of all creation,
>
> I'll certainly conced that I was mistaken about the applicability of
> "bless". However, I don't infer from either of the above specific
> examples that the speakeris the one blessing God.
The worshipers are blessing God.
> Don't know who is -
> maybe he's blessing himself -
That seems pointless.
> but I never heard it as us blessing him.
I just remind you what Doug wrote:
On Tuesday, September 14, 2004, at 03:49 , Doug Dee wrote:
> In a message dated 9/14/2004 10:24:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[snip]
> The Gospel of Luke (in the KJV) says "24:52 And they worshipped him, and
> returned to Jerusalem with great joy: 24:53 And were continually in the
> temple,
> praising and blessing
> God."
>
> It's similar in the RSV.
> People can bless God; that's a grammatical fact.
..and there are many similar examples in other parts of the scriptures.
The verb used in the Greek text is 'eulogein' which is rendered in the
Vulgate by 'benedicere' - both verbs literally mean 'to speak well of' 'to
praise'. The verb is used both of God speaking well of or praising people
or, indeed, anything created, and of people speaking well of and praising
God. I don't see any problem with that.
Both these verbs did develop secondary ideas, especially that of 'speaking
well' of something as opposed to cursing it, and then to speaking well of
something because it was set aside for a special purpose.
Chamber's English Dictionary lists the following meanings of the verb
'bless':
"to consecrate, to make the sign of the cross over:
to extol as holy, to pronounce holy or happy:
to invoke divine favour upon:
to wish happiness to:
to make joyous, happy, or prosperous:
to glorify:
to approve officially."
While certainly some of these meanings would be inapplicable in 'AMERICA
BLESS GOD', the 2nd and 6th meanings are surely possible: AMERICA EXTOL
GOD AS HOLY/ AMERICA GLORIFY GOD.
I see both LeftPondians & RightPondians use the name of country, region
etc when the mean the people :)
Also I note the verb is subjunctive (as in 'Britannia rule the waves!') -
so it's only an exhortation which one is free to follow or ignore.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:14:14 +0100
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: tongue twisters
>
> It's also [b] after [m]
>
> cambio ['kam.bjo] enviar [Em.'bja4]
>
> David Barrow
>
Doesn't l also "hardens" it back to a voiced stop? It always sounded
that way to me. :)
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:11:09 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Italic Greek
On Tuesday, September 14, 2004, at 01:18 , Peter Bleackley wrote:
> This, I suppose, is of most interest to LLL types, but I thought I'd share
> it with everybody.
>
> Until at least the first century AD, Greek was spoken more frequently than
> Latin in southern Italy (Magna Graeca) I don't know when its use died out,
I wasn't aware that it had. If it has, it has happened in the last 20 to
30 years.
> but I imagine that it may have been due to the fall of the Western Empire
> severing ties between Italy and Greece.
Yes, and the ever encroaching Romance dialects of Italy. And since the end
of the 19th century, universal schooling has meant that standard Italian
has made inroads into the younger generations.
> Suppose its use had continued in
> isolated villages to the present day,
Hasn't it? It most certainly survived in villages around the
Calabria-Reggio area and in the 'heel' of Italy (i.e. south of Taranto &
Brindisi) until well into the 2nd half of the 20th century. AFAIK it still
has a precarious existence.
> and it had undergone Latin to Italian
> type sound changes. What might the result have been?
Yes, IIRC -kt- and -pt- did assimilate to -tt- in some villages. The
ancient /ps/ and /ks/ in many areas have become /ts/. I don't recall all
the details. But below I gave the Lord's Prayer in the dialect of Salento:
Patrim� pu stei stin aj�ra;
pu n'ajasti o Nom�-su;
pu n'arti i Vasilia-su;
pu na jetti to telim�-su, pos stin aj�ra, j�s stin gh�,
D�stu es em� to fsom� simmerin�.
Fsexoris�-mma tes amart�e-mma, pos em� efsexor�me us add�;
ce na mi mas f�ri es ton �scimo,
ce vl�fse-ma es pa'kkak�, Am�n.
The spelling is Italian-based, hence |j| = [j] and the use of the grave
accent to denote stress. The sound written as |fs| apparently is
pronounced like [ts] in Calimera, as [fs] or [ss] in Martano, and as [S]
in Zollino. It is derived from ancient /ps/ and /ks/.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 02:30:10 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: tongue twisters
Perhaps you have not tongue twisters in a narrow sense but just sentences
that are particularly difficult to pronounce, e.g. the following in my
natlang:
Der Papscht het z Spiez ds Bsteck z sp�t bstellt
/tr p:a:pSt hEt ts [EMAIL PROTECTED] ts pStEqX ts Sp&:t pStEwt:/
the pope has in Spiez the cutlery too late ordered
'the pope has ordered the cutlery too late in Spiez'
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:59:56 -0400, I. K. Peylough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>>> Mark Reed wrote:
>>> >> I meant to say [la 'jE4.ba Es 'sjEm.pre mas 'bE4.de]
>
>There is some lectal variation, after consonants, but I would have
>pronounced it either [la 'J\E4.Ba e 'siem.p4e mah 'bE4.De] or [la 'J\E4.Ba
>e 'siem.p4e mas 'BE4.De]. Also the fricative allophones can occur word-
>initial as well, except after a pause or the appropriate consonant.
It can even be affricatized for emphasis.
BTW, some Spanish dialects (Argentina at least) distinguish between
_hierba_ /je4Ba/ and _yerba_ /Ze4Ba/.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:40:33 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English word order and bumper stickers
> The worshipers are blessing God.
>
> > Don't know who is -
> > maybe he's blessing himself -
>
> That seems pointless.
*shrug* when one is eternal, why not?
:)
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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:55:49 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
David Peterson wrote, quoting myself:
> > I've added a new flag
>
> I don't like the heads that much, but I really like the design. The
> green is kind of jarring. I have no suggestions on what color
> might look better, though.
As you can see, the heads are in Celtic style, which goes with the
knot. As for the green, well, there are only three Heraldic colours
left after you take away black and purple, namely red/blue/green - and
green is the best contrast with purple.
I've withdrawn my previous design.
> I'm all for starting voting ASAP. What do you think about the
> "none of the above" option, though? Or perhaps "no designs save
> for the above", and if that one's listed first, then it would be
> interpreted as "none of the above"?
No point. I say, let the vote take place, and if the result causes
widespread discontent, /then/ we can decide what to do about it. But,
you know, I don't believe it will. I have more faith in the majority
than that.
Adrian.
Estimated countdown to voting: About 19 hours.
Flag designs: http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/conlangflag.htm
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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:14:59 +0100
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ! Re: Subject / Object / ?
Staving Rodlox:
> I focused, in school, on the Sciences (ie biology), rather than the
>Languages, which I skimmed through/past. it was only after graduating, that
>I began to delve into Languages.
>
> translation: in this case, it is the result of the individual, not the
>system.
>
> ps: if *you* don't know the answer to my question, you don't need to
>digress into a discussion of school systems -- just say that you don't
>know the answer. I won't tell anyone!
Online fora digress - it's one of their basic laws.
Pete
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:22:41 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC: gernikako arbola
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 04:26, Steg Belsky wrote:
> On Sep 14, 2004, at 6:07 PM, Christophe Grandsire wrote:
> > En r�ponse � Chris Bates :
> >> I was just reading about this... I've never heard of any government
> >> apart from this one (the old Basque system) which actually held its
> >> meetings under a tree...
> >
> > As the story goes, Saint Louis rendered justice under a tree :) .
>
> In the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), book of _Shofetim_ ("Judges"), the
> chieftain(ess?)
That would be an accurate description of her role.
> Devora is described as judging the people underneath
> her very own personal tree.
>
>
> -Stephen (Steg)
> "the truth is he's a punk."
> ~ law and order
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:31:44 +0100
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Italic Greek
Staving Ray Brown:
>On Tuesday, September 14, 2004, at 01:18 , Peter Bleackley wrote:
>
>>This, I suppose, is of most interest to LLL types, but I thought I'd share
>>it with everybody.
>>
>>Until at least the first century AD, Greek was spoken more frequently than
>>Latin in southern Italy (Magna Graeca) I don't know when its use died out,
>
>I wasn't aware that it had. If it has, it has happened in the last 20 to
>30 years.
Interesting - I had no idea that it had survived. Long may it continue!
Pete
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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:48:35 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: fragments of a creole
in Yhe Ghye-Ineat, the World of Light, from a short short story (.500 words)
I've just completed:
"Hiyha verdabakh karaeye na'eva!" - there's an evil spirit haunting the city.
Not quite: "A spectre is haunting Texas"; but almost there.
Hiyha
there is/exists, from hi = indefinite, yha = definite - demonstrative
pronouns,
verdabakh
vera = evil, -da = unseen/spirit, -akh = feminine ending, eg "Demoness"
karaeye
kara = to loiter, -ai = continuative aspect, -ie = present tense
na'eva
na = place, 'eva = people (collective noun)
It's an outgrowth of pala ri aknereyazh, the speech of the Bone Quarters,
however, it shows signs of having taken some synthetic characteristics from
the speech of the Ilin Aknereyazh, the Walled Bone Quarters, which is the
home of the powerful amongst its inhabitants.
(NB, the people of the Aknereyazh have no problems with Earth people terming
themselves The Bone People, having a similar name for themselves - Yha Prai
ri Ak, the People of Bone, or more succinctly, Akeprai.)
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:24:31 +0100
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: New Language - Examples
Right... I guess I ought to describe how to pronounce everything first
(hopefully all the X-SAMPA is right :) ).
� /T/ � /D/
t /t/ d /d/ n /n/ s /s/ z /z/ l /l/ ts /ts/ dz /dz/ (affricates)
x /S/ j /Z/ tx /tS/ dj /dZ/ (affricates)
tt /c/ dd /J\/ � /J/ ry /j\/ y /j/ ll /L/
c /k/ g /g/ q /N/ r /x/ w /M\/
h /h/
' /?/ (also used to show contractions like in french)
Vowels:
i /i/ e /e/ a /a/ o /o/ u /@/
� /i:/ � /e:/ � /i:/ � /o:/
Stress: Mainly tonal, falls on second syllable of word unless marked
otherwise by an acute accent. Stressed vowels are always long.
Now, the examples Roldox asked for (I might have made a mistake or
two... and I don't think my translation of elvis is very good... it
didn't really go well into what I've got so far).
dusun zoleli'x �ocani
/[EMAIL PROTECTED]@"nzole:"liSJoka:"ni/
du-su-n zole-li ex �oca-ni
pres.ind-2nd.sing-intrans only-adv. indef.abs dog-1st.poss
You're only my dog (Attempt at translating �You ain't nothing but a
hounddog�)
This sentence really doesn't work very well, because the language has a
compulsory vs optional posession system, and dogs (or at least the word
for a tame dog... there's a different word for a wild dog) are
compulsorily possessed. Since hounddog is a breed that you keep for work
or as a pet I've gone for the word for tame dog, but then I have to
specify whose the dog is... I decided the best way to translate "you
ain't nothing but..." was probably "you're only..." but the result is a
bit funny and really doesn't convey the gist of what elvis was trying to
say at all lol. Perhaps I'll find a better way to translate when I have
more words.
ryide ttaneli egine ganli
/j\i:"decane:"liegi:"nega:"nli/
ryid-e ttane-li egin-e gan-li
live-imp long-adv (and) do/make-imp good-adv
Live long and do good/well (Attempting to translate �Live Long and Prosper�)
This probably works a bit better.... at least the sense of it comes through.
e�os duzca'x xelleta, e�osidze egina('x lluqu)
/e:"Jozduzca:"SeLe:"tae:"Josidze:gi:"na([EMAIL PROTECTED]@)/
e-�o-s duzca-a ex xelleta, e-�o-s-idze egin-a (ex lluqu)
ness.pres-1st.plur-3rd.sing find-perf indef.abs way,
ness.pres-1st.plur-3rd.sing-or make-perf (indef.abs one)
We must find a way, or make one (attempted translation of Hannibal)
This works okay as well.... you really don't need the "one" at the end,
that's why I've put it in brackets... the strategy tends to be "drop
pretty much everything that can be inferred from context".
dadunin ex garay�
/dad@"nineZgaxa:"jo:/
da-du-ni-n ex gara-y�
neg-pres.ind-1st.sing-intrans indef.abs commit.crime/do.wrong-nom.act
I am not a crook (Nixon)
This comes across as "I am not one who commits crimes"... it doesn't
really have the slightly colloquial air of "crook".
esut lieneqi � crattotx
/es@"tlie:"neNi:kxaco:"tS/
e-su-t lien-eqi � cratt-�tx
ness.pres-2nd.sing-non3rd.sing read-prog def.abs lip-plur
Read my lips (Bush)
I might have to change this.... I decided to do something similar to
spanish, so this is literally "You must read me the lips"... I know in
spanish its the dative that does this, but... this kindof makes sense
given with how I deal with the recipient.
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