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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Non vitae sed scholae discimus
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: fragments of a creole
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Conlang IRC server
From: Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Conlang Flag: Voting Now Open.
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. consport/congaming
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Can we stop this? (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: consport/congaming
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Writing Grammatical Rules for Conlangs in the Conlang itself
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. "Flaming","Hateful", and Emotional Involvement
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: consport/congaming
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: "Flaming","Hateful", and Emotional Involvement
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:34:49 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
Quoting PMVA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Joe ta nugatu-r:
>
> > Only there was never (at least in historical times) a Kingdom called
> > 'Anglia'. East Anglia, sure.(incidentally, what was that in Old English?)
>
> _East Engel rice_
_Rice_?
I suggest we resurrect this word, and henceforth call Hitler's state "the Third
Rice".
Andreas
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:51:02 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Non vitae sed scholae discimus
I don't know if my previous mail on this topic went thru, but I went home and
checked Tore Jansson's _Latin_, and it agrees with what I thought I recalled;
what Seneca actually wrote was _Non vitae sed scholae discimus_ "Not for life
but for school do we learn". It's noted its often quoted in opposite form, and
yet attributed to Seneca (which strikes me as highly discourteous, no matter how
dead the old man might be).
Andreas
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:48:54 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fragments of a creole
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:35, Jeffrey Henning wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:48:35 +1200, Wesley Parish
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >karaeye
> >kara = to loiter, -ai = continuative aspect, -ie = present tense
>
> How do you get "haunting" from "loitering"? Why can _karaeye_ take an
> object? Why shouldn't one read _Hiyha verdabakh karaeye na'eva!_ as
> "there's an evil spirit loitering [around] the city"?
Evil spirits/ghosts/unquiet spirits/demons/esses by definition don't "loiter",
they "haunt". So in this instance, the semantics change, not the word
itself.
If it was merely a ratbag from the local pub down by the docks, it'd be "Hiyha
ayato karaeye nanoire" - noire being the general word for boat, nanoire being
the word for boat-place. And the meaning "haunt" wouldn't be there.
"ayato" - pest; "aya-" in the first part of a word, is a derogatory word
referring to vermin ("Hiyha aya!" - There are rats/cockroaches!), "-to" is a
general male suffix. If the character in the story had believed the "evil
spirit" haunting the city was "male", he would've referred to "verdato".
>
> Inquiring minds want to know!
>
> - Jeffrey
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:08:20 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
It's in general tricky to figure out exactly what's meant when the sounds of one
language is described in the terms of others, since no language is monolithic,
but is pronounced differently by different speakers. You'll eventually want to
learn some system for denoting sounds a bit more clearlyM; the one most useful
on this list would be CXS (to which I believe there's a link in the welcome
message). Anyway, some comments:
> phoneme pronounciation:
> gh (like "GHent" in Holland)
This would seem to refer to a voiced velar fricative, but the sound is often
voiceless in Dutch (same as 'kh' below). Spanish _fuego_ might represent a
better
example (no doubt, someone is now gonna point out that in some obscure dialect
of Spanish, intervocalic 'g' is pronounced totally differently).
> kh (like "KHaan" in Mongolian)
Mongolian might be a poor example, since very few people speak it.
> o (like "cOt" & "Octopus")
> u (like "tUt & "bUnk")
> I (like "tIn" & "pIn"
I assume the capitalization is accidental?
> ii (like "sIght" and "strIve")
You might want to reconsider this one; it's very English-like, while most of the
rest is not. I'd suggest 'ai'.
> a (like "bAt" & "cAn")
> b (like "Bat" & "aBBey")
> d (like "Dog" & "aDD")
> jy (like "DJoser" in Ancient Egyptian)
I don't know how AE sounded, and I doubt anyone else does for sure either.
What's
worse, I don't even know what the conventional pronunciation of 'dj' is for it.
> n (like "NouN")
> m (like "Math")
> sy (like in East European languages)
> zy (like in East European languages)
I do not know any East European languages that uses 'sy' and 'zy' as digraphs.
> s (like "Sop" & "Sip")
> s' (like "Sheep")
Since you already have two digraphs in -h, I'd suggest switching to 'sh'.
Andreas
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:40:58 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating
Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After the first day of voting:
>
> There are seventeen votes in so far, and one particular flag is
> winning by a mile (it's the one I put in ninth place, so I can live
> with that, and I don't think anyone would be really disappointed).
Say, is there a way to give "negative points" to a flag?
If I put one in the last slot of the form, is that better
or worse for the flag than if I don't mention it in the
vote at all? I presume the former would give a marginal
amount of points, while the latter gives zero points?
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:06:44 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
Andreas Johansson scripsit:
> _Rice_?
>
> I suggest we resurrect this word, and henceforth call Hitler's state
> "the Third Rice".
Third Rich would be more like it. Indeed, the word ri:ce in Old English
could mean (in the nominative singular) either "rich" or "kingdom";
in later English the latter sense was lost. This Germanic word also
got into French via Franconian (presumably), but was itself a very old
Celtic borrowing (stem ri:g-y) as the palatalization shows, rather than
a direct reflex of PIE reg-. However, the -ric of "bishopric" and the
"-ritch" of "eldritch" (a word that would probably be almost forgotten
if H.P. Lovecraft hadn't used it) are survivals of the older meaning:
"eldritch" < elf + ri:ce, indeed.
There are plenty of direct reflexes of reg-, though: right, rake, rack,
and reck(less) to start with. To these we can add oodles of borrowings of
Latin regere/rectus and its compounds; likewise Latin rex, some direct,
some through French (giving us pairs like regal vs. royal) and the coin
riyal (< Arabic < Spanish). Anorexia has the same source, where the
-o- is from original H3 in the root; there is also Skt/Hindi raja and
its relatives. Latin rogare and its compounds are from the o-grade,
probably including ergo < e-rogo, as are rake and rack; finally, there
is raita, Indian-style yogurt with chopped fruit.
--
A witness cannot give evidence of his John Cowan
age unless he can remember being born. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--Judge Blagden http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 05:22:41 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:19:58 +0100, Peter Bleackley
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> A Dutch colleague habitually refers to his country as "Holland", in
> preference to "the Netherlands". Whether this is a particularly Southern
> Dutch habit or not, I don't know, but he seems to regard "Holland" as more
> correct.
>
> Pete
>
It's pretty common for many Americans* to call the Netherlands
"Holland". I try to say "The Netherlands" but sometimes habit is hard
to break and "Holland" slips out.
Note: the following is NOT to start an arguement, just something I
find interesting:
*As for "American" people have been calling people of the United
states that for much longer than the current issue of "Why do people
in the United States use "American" to refer to themselves?". Anyway,
Robert Louis Stevenson used "American" to refer to the people of the
United states in the late 1800's as such
>From "Across the Plains" in the chapter "Mexicans, Americans and Indians":
" Not even the most Americanised would descend to wear the vile dress
hat of civilisation. Spanish was the language of the streets. It was
difficult to get along without a word or two of that language for an
occasion."
(I included that quote only because it's interesting that the
situation with Spanish is switched with English... it's difficult to
get along in Monterey now without a word or two of English, although
you can get by if you speak Spanish... so all is not lost for Spanish
here :))
"Across the Plains" is interesting, especially where it discusses
Monterey in both chapters "The Old Pacific Capital" and "Mexicans,
Americans, and Indians". It's very interesting and his description of
the weather here is still the same.
You can find "The Old Pacific Capital" here:
http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/614/30.html
And "Mexicans, Americans, and Indians" here:
http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/614/35.html
--
Listen Johnny;
You're like a mother to the girl you've fallen for,
And you're still falling,
And if they come tonight
You'll roll up tight and take whatever's coming to you next.
Slow Graffitti - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:03:40 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag design; comments and proposals
Christian Thalmann wrote:
> If I put one in the last slot of the form, is that better
> or worse for the flag than if I don't mention it in the
> vote at all? I presume the former would give a marginal
> amount of points, while the latter gives zero points?
Um, no ... if you don't mention a flag at all you are implicitely
putting it in equal last place with all the other flags you don't
mention.
Adrian.
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:09:28 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
On Fri, Sep 17, 2004 at 01:08:20PM +0200, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> I don't know how AE sounded, and I doubt anyone else does for sure
> either. What's worse, I don't even know what the conventional
> pronunciation of 'dj' is for it.
Right. AE didn't get written with the Roman alphabet, so first you have
to indicate which transcription system you're using, and even then no
one is sure about the actual sounds. Completely at a loss for vowels,
in fact, although I understand we have some idea about the consonants.
And when I asked if you had difficulty hearing final h, you replied
"nah"; if that was in order to use a word with a final -h, then I hope
you realize that the -h in "nah" is silent, as indeed final h is
everywhere in English. If you wish final h to be silent in your
language as well, you should indicate so explicitly.
NB: I find it interesting that "nah" represents /n&/ while "na"
represents /na/ ("na na na na, hey hey-ey, good-bye"); yet "ah" in most
other contexts indicates /a/. Meanwhile, "yeah" represents /y&/, but
"neah" represents /ni@/, an example of sound-spelling the non-rhotic
pronunciation of "near" for rhotic readers . . .
-Marcos
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:36:03 +0000
From: Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlang IRC server
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hey,
I have been pretty bored lately, and I have a couple of boxes laying around
the house. I was thinking of setting up an IRC server, and it dawned on me
that CONLANG could talk in a channel there as well. Give me some feed back
and if people are okay with it, I'll fire it up :)
- Robert Hill
Robir Yil
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:29:02 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Voting Now Open.
For the first time, I've had a thorough read of the online definition
of Condorcet voting (just the definition, not all the apologetics).
I've paraphrased it and uploaded a definition in my own words here:
http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/condorcet.gif
(It's possible I've made a mistake but I don't think so.)
I won't say that I, as yet, fully understand the relative merits of
one system over another (for certain pairs of systems), but I'm
working on it.
In the case of the Conlang flag vote, one flag is winning by a mile
no matter what voting method you choose. Barring a miracle, it is
*very* clear which design is going to win. In fact, with 24 votes
received, over 45% of people have placed the leading flag in first
place! Now, that's a dramatic result however you look at it.
It would be more interesting if it was a closer competition, but it's
not turning out that way.
Adrian.
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:58:39 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: consport/congaming
Is there a separate list for conculturing vs. conlanging? I was
wondering if anyone had created new sports that are played in their
conculture. Would seem to be a good source of specialized vocabulary
needing no gloss. Or tabletop games (card/board), for that matter . .
.
-Marcos
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:47:08 +0200
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Can we stop this? (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
Hallo!
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:23:56 -0400,
Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:16:15 +0100, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, September 15,
> >Good grief! What is happening to us? Do we really want this list to tear
> >itself apart?
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >Do you think we could end this thread before it descends into flames and
> >that we could get back to conlanging?
>
> Sorry to quote all of the above, but I agree with it wholeheartedly and thought it
> was worth seeing again.
>
> Let's take these conversations elsewhere and talk conlanging here.
I second that. This is not the right place for hateful politicking.
There are other fora for that.
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:42:15 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
Quoting Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
> >Quoting PMVA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Joe ta nugatu-r:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Only there was never (at least in historical times) a Kingdom called
> >>>'Anglia'. East Anglia, sure.(incidentally, what was that in Old English?)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>_East Engel rice_
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_Rice_?
> >
> >I suggest we resurrect this word, and henceforth call Hitler's state "the
> Third
> >Rice".
> >
> >
>
> Pronounced [EMAIL PROTECTED], I think. Well, in the modern pronunciation most
> academics use.
Indeed. It'd be alot more fun, tho, to pronounce it as the spelling suggests to
modern anglophones.
Andreas
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:34:20 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
Andreas Johansson wrote:
>Quoting PMVA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>
>>Joe ta nugatu-r:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Only there was never (at least in historical times) a Kingdom called
>>>'Anglia'. East Anglia, sure.(incidentally, what was that in Old English?)
>>>
>>>
>>_East Engel rice_
>>
>>
>
>_Rice_?
>
>I suggest we resurrect this word, and henceforth call Hitler's state "the Third
>Rice".
>
>
Pronounced [EMAIL PROTECTED], I think. Well, in the modern pronunciation most
academics use.
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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:04:01 +0200
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: consport/congaming
Hallo!
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:58:39 -0400,
"Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is there a separate list for conculturing vs. conlanging? I was
> wondering if anyone had created new sports that are played in their
> conculture. Would seem to be a good source of specialized vocabulary
> needing no gloss. Or tabletop games (card/board), for that matter . .
> .
There is the Conculture mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
of course, but it has been virtually hi-jacked by the Ill Bethisad
folks. I'd say an occasional conculture post here isn't objectionable
- more than half of the list traffic on CONLANG has even less to do
with *conlangs* than that.
Regarding con-sports, I have only a few *very* sketchy ideas about
Elvish (Old Albic) sports. They ran, swam, rode horses, played a
ball game similar to field hockey, and had a martial arts tradition
somewhat resembling east Asian martial arts. And while the ancient
Greeks performed their exercises naked (the words "gymnasium" and
"gymnastics" contain the word _gymnos_ `naked'), the Elves performed
theirs (even swimming) fully clothed.
I don't know of parlour games yet, but I have to invent a board game
or two for them some day.
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:14:36 +0200
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Writing Grammatical Rules for Conlangs in the Conlang itself
Hallo!
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:52:31 -0700,
Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone currently on the list tried to write
> grammatical texts about the grammar of your conlangs
> using the conlang itself?
I haven't done so yet, but among my ideas about Old Albic is that
one of the surviving texts in Old Albic is a grammar of Old Albic,
and I dream of actually writing that grammar some day, when Old Albic
has become mature enough to do that.
> I know this has been done before. And I've just
> started something about it in Silindion.
>
> [awesome stuff snipped]
This is way, way, way cool! Thank you for sharing it with us!
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:14:18 +0100
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: "Flaming","Hateful", and Emotional Involvement
I do not intent to speak more about America, since I said what I wanted
to say, but I do want to comment on something that is after all related
to language: the use of "flame", "hateful", and so on by people who took
my comments badly. To me, both flame and hateful imply a large amount of
emotional involvement which I simply do not feel; rather, I was simply
stating the truth as I felt it. I do not think that stating the truth as
one sees it is necessarily hateful even if other people find those
comments disagreeable, because the term hateful implies that you are
making the comments because you experience hate. This simply isn't the
case. I have been accused of many things before, and some of them like
"untactful", "undiplomatic" I can accept, but that is the only critism I
would accept in this case: what I said might have been untactful, but I
truly do not feel a great emotional involvement in the matter we were
discussing, except for the fact that I have an annoying habit (I'm told)
of eagerly giving my own opinion on any topic. If you look back at my
post you will see, I hope, that far from being an angry flame, I was
simply trying to correct what I saw as an untruth. If people wish to
disagree with my view on the truth then that is fine, but I do object to
me or my comments being called "hateful", or a "flame" because they were
not written with hate in my mind nor to provoke hate.
>I second that. This is not the right place for hateful politicking.
>There are other fora for that.
>
>Greetings,
>
>J�rg.
>
>
>
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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:04:34 +0100
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: consport/congaming
--- J�rg Rhiemeier skrzypszy:
> > Is there a separate list for conculturing vs. conlanging? I was
> > wondering if anyone had created new sports that are played in
> > their conculture. Would seem to be a good source of specialized
> > vocabulary needing no gloss. Or tabletop games (card/board),
> > for that matter . . .
> There is the Conculture mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Indeed. The home page is <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conculture>.
The group was created about five years ago to fulfill the needs of
those who wanted to discuss their concultures without having the
feeling that they are being off-topic. So yes, Conculture is the
place you are looking for.
> of course, but it has been virtually hi-jacked by the Ill Bethisad
> folks.
Without indulging in the same eternal discussion about the pros and
the contras of IB, I must object against the term hijacked. IB �s a
conculture after all, and it's true that by its very nature it
generates a lot of traffic; but don't give the false impression that
postings about other subjects are discouraged in any way by the IB
members, because that is simply not true. Anyway, a significant
portion of the recent traffic has been related to the Fortunatian
conworld, and not to IB.
> I'd say an occasional conculture post here isn't objectionable
> - more than half of the list traffic on CONLANG has even less to do
> with *conlangs* than that.
Agreed.
> Regarding con-sports,
Consports are a recurring theme on Conculture. Even IB houses a few
consports.
Jan
=====
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with a mosquito."
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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:39:35 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
Mark J. Reed scripsit:
> Right. AE didn't get written with the Roman alphabet, so first you have
> to indicate which transcription system you're using, and even then no
> one is sure about the actual sounds. Completely at a loss for vowels,
> in fact, although I understand we have some idea about the consonants.
We have a firm idea of the consonants: they are all that is written in
the phonetic part of the orthography, and there is little or no dispute
about the pronunciation of any of them.
There are two sets of vowels for Egyptian: the conventional and the
reconstructed. The conventional vowels are created by transcribing
every alef (glottal stop, CXS [?]) as either zero or "a", most yods as
"i", most waws as "u", every ayin (voiced pharyngeal fricatives, or [?\]
in CXS) as "a", and throwing in "e"s as needed for pronounceability.
Thus the royal name [twt ?\nx ?mn] with conventional vowels comes out
"Tut-ankh-amen". This pronunciation has the advantage of being definite,
and the disadvantage of being definitely wrong.
Reconstruction of the actual vowels is based on comparisons with
other Afro-Asiatic languages and Egyptian borrowings into surrounding
languages, whether Afroasiatic or not. This tells us that the renegade
Pharoah whose name is conventionally vocalized as "Akhnaton" was
probably [?axenjati(n)]. There are of course many different possible
reconstructions: infinite are the arguments of mages.
> NB: I find it interesting that "nah" represents /n&/ while "na"
> represents /na/ ("na na na na, hey hey-ey, good-bye"); yet "ah" in
> most Meanwhile, "yeah" represents /y&/,
This word is very variable not only betweeen, but within, dialects of
English. For me it has a centralizing diphthong, [EMAIL PROTECTED], that I don't
otherwise have. I'd guess that whoever wrote this down first used a
pronunciation similar to mine. The variant spelling "yah" probably
represents something closer to [j&].
All this paralinguistic stuff has very strange phonology and stranger
orthography. I remember being quite surprised as a child to discvoer
that written "tsk" meant a click, and that written "er" was just a
non-rhotic spelling of [EMAIL PROTECTED], aka "uh".
--
As you read this, I don't want you to feel John Cowan
sorry for me, because, I believe everyone [EMAIL PROTECTED]
will die someday. http://www.reutershealth.com
--From a Nigerian-type scam spam http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:48:54 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
Joe wrote at 2004-09-17 07:12:01 (+0100)
>
> I don't think so:
>
> That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st
> May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into
> One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN
>
> Thus there is only one Kingdom.
I'm not really sure that that follows self-evidently from the text,
but I'm not interested in contemplating alternative possible readings
of 18th-century legal documents any further.
> Well, the Government of Ireland Act a)Is repealed, and b)Predated
> the Anglo-Irish Treaty. I'd say it suggests that it was considered
> a Province of the part called Ireland(along with Southern Ireland).
> The current 'constitution' of Northern Ireland refers to it as a
> part.
The Northern Ireland Act 1998 says that it "remains part of the United
Kingdom" and mentions the possibility that it might in future "form
part of a united Ireland", but I don't see any reference to it as "a
part", or as anything else. Clearly the term "Province of Northern
Ireland" has been widely used - Google turns up over 13000 hits,
including Microsoft Encarta, the Royal Mail and reports from
parliamentary committees - but I'm unable to determine its official
status before or after the 1998 act. Frankly I'm coming to the
conclusion that the constitution of the UK does not care to offer a
classification of its constituent territories, either individually or
collectively.
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:06:34 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:09:28 -0400, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2004 at 01:08:20PM +0200, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
>> I don't know how AE sounded, and I doubt anyone else does for sure
>> either. What's worse, I don't even know what the conventional
>> pronunciation of 'dj' is for it.
>
> Right. AE didn't get written with the Roman alphabet, so first you have
> to indicate which transcription system you're using, and even then no
> one is sure about the actual sounds. Completely at a loss for vowels,
> in fact, although I understand we have some idea about the consonants.
Well, not entirely at a loss. We do have proper nouns transcribed into
Greek, which tend to agree with Coptic[*], and there exists a large Coptic
corpus that shows clear and direct descent from AE. AFAIK, it's fairly
usual to use Coptic vowels to vocalise AE. For instance, the word |pt|
(sky) could be |opt|, |epat|, |pit|, or any one of a multitude of other
readings. However, the Coptic word is |pe|, and given that Coptic
regularly drops AE final |t|, it seems that the old Coptic was |pet|, and
|pet| is thus the usual vocalisation of the AE word.
[*] I fully admit that some Coptic transcriptions of AE names could have
been inspired or influenced by Greek, which pokes a bit of a hole in the
theory, but doesn't severely hamper the internal reconstruction.
Paul
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:11:46 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:48:54 +0100, Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Frankly I'm coming to the
> conclusion that the constitution of the UK does not care to offer a
> classification of its constituent territories, either individually or
> collectively.
I think this is because there are enough nationalist and separatist
movements (and their antitheseses) within the British Isles that tying
anything down terminologically too tightly is bound to upset a significant
portion of the voting public.
Paul
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Message: 24
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:19:20 -0400
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Flaming","Hateful", and Emotional Involvement
J�rg �rta: "This is not the right place for hateful politicking."
"Hateful"?
To be honest, I thought we were better than that.
Chris is right, and if you don't like the truth, well, you don't have to.
But it's still there, and truth will always win, as someone famous said.
Writing Chris's opinions off as "hateful", not even considering them, is
so... arrogant... I feel like throwing up. It is so childish--
A (victim): B stole my wallet!
B (the thief of the wallet): No, I didn't!!
C (possibly a friend of B, but not necessarily): A just hates B-- A wants to
get B in trouble-- that's why A is making up these stories.
Anyone can call me a "flame-creator" or "a friend of Usama Bin Ladin" all
they want, I don't care...
ObConlang: How do your languages express the equivalent of "flaming"? Is
there a cultural equivalent, f'rex?
Trebor
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Message: 25
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:18:19 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
>From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:08:20 +0200
>
>It's in general tricky to figure out exactly what's meant when the sounds
>of one
>language is described in the terms of others,
Whose language is X-Sampa ? :)
> > kh (like "KHaan" in Mongolian)
>
>Mongolian might be a poor example, since very few people speak it.
you never heard of Gengis Khan? :)
> > jy (like "DJoser" in Ancient Egyptian)
>
>I don't know how AE sounded, and I doubt anyone else does for sure either.
>What's
>worse, I don't even know what the conventional pronunciation of 'dj' is for
>it.
�n X-Sampa - J\
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