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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. NATLANG: alien sounds in interjections (was: new Unnamed Conlang)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Conlang Evolution Experiment Weekly Review 11
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. More on Brasaelig
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: CHAT: reign names
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Non vitae sed scholae discimus
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Non vitae sed scholae discimus
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: CHAT National toponyms
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Montreiano page
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Non vitae sed scholae discimus
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. THEORY: transitivity
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: THEORY: transitivity
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. The etymology of (King) Arthur (was Re: CHAT: reign names)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Indonesian Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: the sound of "DJ" (was Re new Unnamed Conlang)
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. LLL Weekly Update #11/2004
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Con/Natlang - "The Terminal" ?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Guarani info request
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Orthography help, please.
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: ANNOUNCE: S7 has a name: Q'en|gai
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Further language development Q's
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Imperatives in split-S languages (was Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano
uvulars and Guarani info request)
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Conlang IRC server
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: AAAUUUUGH! (was Re: consport/congaming)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: LLL Weekly Update #11/2004
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:04:00 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: NATLANG: alien sounds in interjections (was: new Unnamed Conlang)
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:27:01 +0200, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:54:10 -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> we use ['?m=?m=] or ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]@] for negation and [?m='hm=] or [?@'[EMAIL
>> PROTECTED] for
>> affirmation even though our words can't have [m=], [?], or stressed [EMAIL
>> PROTECTED]
>
>No [?]? Interesting; I thought this was a fairly universal German thing.
It's not. Not even Swiss standard German has the glottis stop, so that
|Spiegelei| 'fried egg' and |Spiegelei| 'reflection' are homophonous
(except for the major stress). I'm not quite sure of it, but I suspect that
all over the southern part of the German-speaking area, there's no glottis
stop. Likewise, southern phoneticians will tend to exclude the glottis stop
from the German phoneme system (but include /E:/).
>And I also have [m=] in words such as |geben| ["ge:bm=].
Because of the alemannic n-apokope, there's no n in endings. There's few
cases of /@m/-ending, but as far as I know, it has always a distinct schwa.
=======================================================
John Cowan wrote (Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:37:50 -0400):
>J. 'Mach' Wust scripsit:
>
>> We use ['?m=?m=] or ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]@] for negation and [?m='hm=] or [?@'[EMAIL
>> PROTECTED] for
>> affirmation even though our words can't have [m=], [?], or stressed [EMAIL
>> PROTECTED]
>
>These are also used in American English and in Scots and Scottish English.
>AFAIK they are not common in the English of England, though not altogether
>unknown there either.
Interesting.
>However, I at least say the first affirmative form with a voiceless
>nasal rather than ['h]; the lips remain closed throughout.
Yes, that's a more description. I thought of it, but then I couldn't think
of a short way of writing a glottis stop coarticulated with a voiceless
[m_0].
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:13:09 +0100
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlang Evolution Experiment Weekly Review 11
It's been a slow week on the Conlang Evolution Experiment.
The main news is that Alex Fink has announced that he has a descendent of
khikeng in the long range forecast. I've got the first few bits of kigeng,
my khikeng descendent up.
Pete
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:46:38 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: More on Brasaelig
I'm not sure if I submitted this update of the Paternoster, but here it
is anyway:
Ffaar digan, in aefan bidu, bin�f bi namadu. Marc du taari, co al
maacsan fel du in dafin so saem in otar. Tac so, co baerdu taclig
ar��n digan, oon co maedu aeran digan saem ffaeg maacsan aeran fet
igan oog maegan isan. Oon co ne lidu igan in frastin oog saerdu
igan as al il, mar marc, comas oon glor bisan ad�.
Interlinear
-----------
1. Ffaar digan, in aefan bidu
Ffaar de-ig.an in aefan bi-du
father GEN-1.PL LOC heaven be-2.SG
Our Father, who art in heaven,
2. Bin�f bi namadu
Bi-nif bi nama-du
CAUS.holy be name-2.SG
Hallowed by thy name.
3. Marc du taari
Marc de-du taar-i(s)
Kingdom GEN-2.SG come-3.SG
Thy kingdom comes,
4. Co al maacsan fel du in dafin so
Co al maac-is.an fel de-du in dafin so
OPT all make/do-3.PL will GEN-2SG LOC world this
saem in otar
saem in otar
as/like LOC other/next
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
(Lit. 'May all do your will in this world as in the next)
5. Tac so, co baerdu taclig ar��n digan,
Tac so, co baer-du taclig ar��n de-ig.an
Day this OPT bring-2.SG daily bread GEN-1.PL
Give us this day our daily bread,
6. Oon co maedu aeran digan
Oon co mae-du aer-an de-ig.an
CONJ OPT forgive-1.SG error-PL GEN-1.PL
And forgive us our trespasses
7. Saem ffaeg maacsan aeran fet igan oog maegan isan
Saem ffaeg maac-is.an aer-an fet ig.an oog mae-ig.an is.an
As people make-3.PL error-PL against 1.PL but forgive-1.PL 3.PL
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
(Lit., 'As people make errors against us, yet we forgive them')
8. Oon co ne lidu igan in frastin
Oon co ne li-du ig.an in frastin
CONJ OPT NEG lead-1.SG 1.PL LOC temptation
oog saerdu igan as al il
oog saer-du ig.an as al il
but save-2.SG 1.PL FROM all evil/ill
And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil
9. Mar marc, comas oon glor bisan ad�.
Mar marc, comas oon glor bi-is.an a-du.
Because kingdom power and glory be-3.PL with/at-you (yours)
For yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Legend
------
LOC = Locative.
CAUS = Causative.
OPT = Optative particle.
CONJ = Conjunction
NEG = Negative
Orthography
-----------
The only typographical changes from the last post are the corrected
consistent use of <c> for [k] and the use of an acute accent to denote
'irregular' stress, though the stress is actually entirely predictable.
Stress is initial, with it appearing to shift back in compound words.
So as nobody is puzzled by the orthography,
<ff> = [f]
<f> = [v]
<ae> = [e] but never used finally
<e> = [EMAIL PROTECTED] generally, [e] finally
<a> = [a] generally, [EMAIL PROTECTED] finally.
<c> = [k] always
<g> = [g] always
Doubled vowels mark length. No diphthongs, I think. The rest is
straightforward.
Notes
-----
Owing to some of the usages, I reckon this is the Brasaelig of the
Gaalmarc in the south rather than the Finmarc in the north.
What's Next
-----------
Find an Old Norse Grammar, or an Icelandic one with notes to rollback
pronunciation to that of Old Norse. A dictionary would be nice too.
An Old Irish Dictionary to complement my copy of Thurneysen.
Work out a consistent idea of what the core grammar, phonology and
vocabulary were, then make sure my 19th century version of the language
is consistent with the initial 9th century one.
Make a recording of myself speaking it.
--
Keith Gaughan -- talideon.com
The man who removes a mountain begins
by carrying away small stones...
...to make place for some really big nukes!
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:54:40 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: reign names
Quoting "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Ray wrote:
> > But 'George' is one of the Prince of Wales's names! Many people had been
> > hoping he would choose one of his other names, 'Arthur' (which BTW, unlike
> > either Charles or George, is spelled the same in Welsh as in English).
>
> So, if he were to adopt Arthur as his regnal name, would he
> be called "King Arthur II"? For that matter, what status do
> any of the preconquest kings have? A few of the very early
> names are still in use:
>
> <http://www.hostkingdom.net/engl.html>
>
> I've met people named 'Owen' (the king of which name r. 410-425 AD),
> for example. (Not that a modern monarch is likely to have such a
> name.) Heck, if Sargon II of Assyria (r. 722-705 BC) can be called
> thus because of Sargon I the Great of Akkad (r. 2371-2315 BC), I
> suppose anything can happen.
Hm? I seem recall recently to've read words to the effect that Sargon of Akkad
reached such fame that _two_ Assyrian kings adopted his name. There was no
Sargon III of Assyria, so I've assumed there was a Sargon I of Assyria sometime
between Sargon of Akkad and Sargon II.
I'll be checking my Assyrian regnal list when I get home ...
Andreas
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:55:38 -0700
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non vitae sed scholae discimus
--- Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Except that in English 'quote' means repeating the
> verba_ipsissima (or a
> faithful translation of the actual words) not
> repeating what we may image
> the person to be thinking. We may state the latter,
> but it is not a quote.
True. "Quote" looks inappropriate here. Please replace
it by the right word. I just cannot find the right one
in French at the moment, I would have said "citer",
even if normally "citer" has the same meaning as "to
quote". Anyway it is possible to "citer de travers"
(to quote incorrectly). It is also possible to use the
word "citer" ironically, knowing that the quotation is
not a faithful one. Another possibility would be to
say: "Comme Seneque ne l'a pas dit...", but that's not
a verb. Is there a verb "to disquote" ? (AFAIK,
"malciter" does not exist in French).
> We may quote the words "non scholae sed vitae
> discimus" if we want, but
> either give the source as anonymous (we don't know
> who coined this version)
> or as 'based on Seneca'. But it is false to quote
> them as Seneca's words.
>
> Indeed, now that I know the context, Seneca's words
> have far more meaning
> for me than the bland and platitudinous "non scholae
> sed vitae discimus".
>
> > Interesting that, when reading the original
> sentence,
> > nearly everybody thinks immediately that there
> must be
> > a mistake somewhere.
>
> Only if meeting it out of context!
>
> > Probably culture conditioning. We
> > understand "discimus" has "we have to learn, we
> must
> > learn, we should learn". But "discimus" means
> nothing
> > of the sort. It just means "we learn".
>
> Eh?? Sorry - we? Who are 'we'? Is this yet another
> generalization?
The very discussion you had about this sentence
earlier proves that you felt puzzled, just like your
interlocutor, and just like I was. You said that one
should know the context, which is quite right. What I
meant is that when someone reads:
"Non vitae sed scholae discimus" (Seneca)
this someone usually reads it twice and then thinks :
did Seneca actually say that ? isn't there a mistake
somewhere ? isn't it the opposite ? why did he say
that ? what did he mean by that ? what was the context
?
while in fact, once the context has been found, there
is absolutely nothing abnormal in this sentence. So
the question is: why do we feel puzzled at first
reading ? And my answer is: because we instinctively
understand that this sentence is normative, not
descriptive. So, why do we feel so ? Again, my answer
is: because usually, such sentences, especially when
signed by a famous Latin author, are rather considered
as precepts. This sentence, out of context, does not
work the usual way. That's why we feel puzzled. And
this is cultural. And that's my theory, be it right,
false or incomplete.
I don't think that the original sentence is better or
has more meaning than the reverse one, neither the
contrary: there are just two different things. And in
both cases, the question is the same: what do we learn
for ?
(As to the word "schola", a glose in Russian I found
in some book talks about "philosophical cabinets",
whatever that may be, not schools as we understand
them. Also, it qualifies the whole sentence as an
"uprek" (a reproach, made by Seneca). I can "quote"
the whole Russian comment in case somebody would be interested.)
=====
Philippe Caquant
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor illis (Ovidius).
Populus me sibilat, at mihi plaudo (Horatius).
Interdum stultus opportune loquitur (Henry Fielding).
Scire leges non hoc est verba earum tenere, sed vim ac potestatem (Somebody).
Melius est ut scandalum oriatur, quam ut veritas relinquatur (Somebody else).
Ceterum censeo *vi* esse oblitterandum (Me).
_______________________________
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:13:30 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non vitae sed scholae discimus
Quoting Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> --- Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Eh?? Sorry - we? Who are 'we'? Is this yet another
> > generalization?
>
> The very discussion you had about this sentence
> earlier proves that you felt puzzled, just like your
> interlocutor, and just like I was. You said that one
> should know the context, which is quite right. What I
> meant is that when someone reads:
>
> "Non vitae sed scholae discimus" (Seneca)
>
> this someone usually reads it twice and then thinks :
> did Seneca actually say that ? isn't there a mistake
> somewhere ? isn't it the opposite ? why did he say
> that ? what did he mean by that ? what was the context
> ?
>
> while in fact, once the context has been found, there
> is absolutely nothing abnormal in this sentence. So
> the question is: why do we feel puzzled at first
> reading ? And my answer is: because we instinctively
> understand that this sentence is normative, not
> descriptive. So, why do we feel so ? Again, my answer
> is: because usually, such sentences, especially when
> signed by a famous Latin author, are rather considered
> as precepts. This sentence, out of context, does not
> work the usual way. That's why we feel puzzled. And
> this is cultural. And that's my theory, be it right,
> false or incomplete.
Well, I guess this _is_ down to cultural conditioning. I first saw it in
original form (except translated into Swedish), and was not at all surprised to
run into what I perceived as a cynic observation. Aphoristically expressed
cynicism wasn't exactly unknown to the Classics.
Andreas
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:13:43 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms
Ray Brown wrote:
>>>> Ireland [sic],
>>
>>
>> Why the [sic]?
>
>
> Because in the context it might have been read by those on 'tother side of
> the Pond & elsewhere who are ignorant of rugby that I had made an error
> and meant Northern Ireland. I wished to make it clear that I made Ireland.
>
>> The IRFU is All-Ireland, and the teams represents the
>> whole island.
>
> I should have made that clear also - mea culpa.
No problem. The only bad thing about it is that cringworthy rubgy
anthem. *shudder*
>> If it's the use of 'nation', if you can have nations
>> without a country, surely you can have a nation split between two
>> countries?
>
> I am not sure that I would describe the six counties as a country - but I
> do not want to get into minefield of Northern Irish politics.
Nor I, so we'll go no further with that. :-)
>> For which informal use, a certain loon attacked me for being in the
>> pay of the English
>
> ..and many of us English avoid this use - IMO it is best avoided except,
> of course, when talking about the actual historical provinces of Ulster,
> Munster, Leinster & Connaught.
That it is. The use of Ulster = NI is political dynamite, and we'll say
no more.
K.
--
Keith Gaughan -- talideon.com
The man who removes a mountain begins
by carrying away small stones...
...to make place for some really big nukes!
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 04:43:15 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Montreiano page
Since Nik asked on conculture if Montreiano had a page, and I said it
didn't I've begun making a page for it. It will include both culture
and language. I've tried to keep it simple, yet stylish (and before
anyone asks, yes I have a bit of formatting to do, as on the text area
it runs right into the end of the table. I just caught some errata
also)
Here's the link:
http://www.geocities.com/doobieous/montrei/montreiano.html
Only the link to "language" works. The "culture" page isn't even
conceived of yet.
The images you see are all taken locally in Monterey (the image on the
main page is from Lover's point... it's a Canary Island Date Palm
(Phoenix canariensis) growing right at the seashore in Pacific Grove
(next to Monterey, but in IB would be a part of Montr�i.)
NOTE: The links at the bottom are flash text links, so let me know if
anyone has problems with it... i'll change those to linked images
instead).
--
Listen Johnny;
You're like a mother to the girl you've fallen for,
And you're still falling,
And if they come tonight
You'll roll up tight and take whatever's coming to you next.
Slow Graffitti - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:47:48 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non vitae sed scholae discimus
Philippe Caquant scripsit:
> Is there a verb "to disquote" ?
"To misquote". There are many misquotations in English that have become
fixed parts of the language: for example, "to gild the lily", meaning
to add decoration to what is already beautiful, is a misquotation of
Shakespeare's line "to gild refin�d gold, to paint the lily". A related
phenomenon is quoting something verbatim et literatim, but in a sense
quite different from the original: to take another Shakespeare example,
most people who say "more honored in the breach [i.e. disregard] than in
the observance" use it to mean "more often honored", but in the original
context it plainly means "more *appropriately* honored".
> And my answer is: because we instinctively understand that this sentence
> is normative, not descriptive. So, why do we feel so ? Again, my answer
> is: because usually, such sentences, especially when signed by a famous
> Latin author, are rather considered as precepts.
Quite sound psychology, I think.
> (As to the word "schola", a glose in Russian I found in some book
> talks about "philosophical cabinets",
German _Wunderkammer_; what it may be called in French I don't know.
This was an 18th-century box with a glass door used for the display
of curious natural objects (often fossils); "philosophical" here means
"scientific".
--
What is the sound of Perl? Is it not the John Cowan
sound of a [Ww]all that people have stopped [EMAIL PROTECTED]
banging their head against? --Larry http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:23:25 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: THEORY: transitivity
Philippe wrote:
> As I always quote, "to follow" is transitive in French (and
> in English),
I can't speak for French, but 'follow' in English is labile:
'You should follow those signs until you see the busstop.'
'You run along, and I'll follow.'
> but not in German (dative).
Paul Hopper and Sandra Thompson wrote an excellent article in the early
80s (Language, Vol. 56, no. 2) entitled "Transitivity in Grammar
and Discourse". Therein they list 10 (!) different criteria that
languages use to encode transitivity, and they show that transitivity
is really more of a cline than a discrete proposition. The 10
criteria are:
(1) Participants: two or more vs. one
(2) Kinesis: action vs. nonaction
(3) Aspect: telic vs. atelic
(4) Punctuality: punctual vs. nonpunctual
(5) Volitionality: volitional vs. nonvolitional
(6) Affirmation: affirmative vs. negative
(7) Mode: realis vs. irrealis
(8) Agency: A high in potency vs. A low in potency
(9) Affectedness of O: O totally affected vs. O not affected
(10) Individuation of O: O highly individuated vs. O nonindividuated
By most of these criteria, I would say German 'folgen' is high on
the transitivity cline, despite the fact that it subcategorizes for
a dative object. Another point is that sometimes verbs just lexically
specify things, and their behavior does not reflect any actual synchronic
generalizations about where the verb fits on the transitivity cline.
So, if we've decided to lump things as transitive or intransitive,
I would say 'folgen' is transitive.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:45:13 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: transitivity
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:23:25 -0500, Thomas R. Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Philippe wrote:
>> As I always quote, "to follow" is transitive in French (and
>> in English),
>
>I can't speak for French, but 'follow' in English is labile:
>
> 'You should follow those signs until you see the busstop.'
> 'You run along, and I'll follow.'
>
>> but not in German (dative).
>
>Paul Hopper and Sandra Thompson wrote an excellent article in the early
>80s (Language, Vol. 56, no. 2) entitled "Transitivity in Grammar
>and Discourse". Therein they list 10 (!) different criteria that
>languages use to encode transitivity, and they show that transitivity
>is really more of a cline than a discrete proposition. The 10
>criteria are:
>
>(1) Participants: two or more vs. one
>(2) Kinesis: action vs. nonaction
>(3) Aspect: telic vs. atelic
>(4) Punctuality: punctual vs. nonpunctual
>(5) Volitionality: volitional vs. nonvolitional
>(6) Affirmation: affirmative vs. negative
>(7) Mode: realis vs. irrealis
>(8) Agency: A high in potency vs. A low in potency
>(9) Affectedness of O: O totally affected vs. O not affected
>(10) Individuation of O: O highly individuated vs. O nonindividuated
>
>By most of these criteria, I would say German 'folgen' is high on
>the transitivity cline, despite the fact that it subcategorizes for
>a dative object. Another point is that sometimes verbs just lexically
>specify things, and their behavior does not reflect any actual synchronic
>generalizations about where the verb fits on the transitivity cline.
>So, if we've decided to lump things as transitive or intransitive,
>I would say 'folgen' is transitive.
So you prefer underlying structure to morphology, semantic transitivity to
overtly encoded transitivity? I like better sticking to the surface,
because otherwise I'm getting the feeling that the analysis of all those
funny forms and their functions becomes very pointless and that I'd better
study Logics than Linguistics.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:44:42 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: The etymology of (King) Arthur (was Re: CHAT: reign names)
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:43:52 +0100, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 08:19 , Thomas R. Wier wrote:
>
>> Ray wrote:
>>> But 'George' is one of the Prince of Wales's names! Many people had
>>> been
>>> hoping he would choose one of his other names, 'Arthur' (which BTW,
>>> unlike
>>> either Charles or George, is spelled the same in Welsh as in English).
>>
>> So, if he were to adopt Arthur as his regnal name, would he
>> be called "King Arthur II"?
>
> No. There is no evidence that there was ever a historic 'King Arthur' of
> anywhere. If the Arthur of legend has any basis in reality, then 'Arthur'
> was probably a Romano-British leader (presumably called Arctorius)
> holding
> out against Saxon encroachment after the legions had withdrawn from
> Britain.
I understand that while Arthur is a composite, there was a Romano-Britsh
leader (originally a Cavalry commander), with a bear as his standard.
There was a really good documentary on the History Channel that examined
the historical evidence to reconstruct as much of the Arthurian truth as
they could. The show then spent time on Mallory and Geoffrey of Monmouth
and so on, showing how the vague details of history became the legend we
know today. I wish I could remember more details about him and his
contemporaries (I can't even remember the names of the histories he's
refered to in), but it has been a while since I saw the documentary. The
name "Arth Ur" was posited during that documentary as plausibly combining
the Celtic and Latin words for "bear", in agreement with the bear on the
battle-flag.
Paul
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:19:37 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Indonesian Re: new Unnamed Conlang
> > > > h ( like "Hat" and "aHa!")
> > >
> > > Don't you find that sound difficult to hear in final position?
> >
> > nah
> >
> Good for you. Maybe you should study Indonesian,
thank you for the suggestion...if I may ask, do you know of any good
websites with which I can begin studying?
> it's full of final h's--
> true, it's difficult for lots of learners, but it just takes practice.
>
> Technically, it's not really a glottal [h], which _is_ a little difficult
to
> do after a vowel, but a voiceless continuation of the vowel articulation.
>
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:18:16 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: the sound of "DJ" (was Re new Unnamed Conlang)
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Constructed Languages List <
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: the sound of "DJ" (was Re new Unnamed Conlang)
>
>
>
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > jy (like "DJoser" in Ancient Egyptian)
> >
> > Does anyone what Ancient Egyptian sounded like
>
> actually, after some thinking, I recall that I put a DJoser-style DJ
sound
> in Metes, which I wrote in X-Sampa.
>
> it's [J\] if I recall.
>
>
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:56:07 +0200
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: LLL Weekly Update #11/2004
Hallo!
I know I am one day late, but here's this week's update on the LLL.
Bob posted about Hifahoshach verb conjugations and rodlox (what's
his real name?) about Spanish loans in Orinoco English. The off-topic
flap of the week before last week abated, and lostlangs has become
a rather quiet place again.
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:14:58 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Con/Natlang - "The Terminal" ?
by now, many of you may have had an opportunity to see the recent movie
"The Terminal".
I am curious - has anyone begun work on a Krakosia*/English dictionary?
(or is there already one?).
* = I used 'ia' even though I think it may be related to Chechen. I could
be wrong.
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:10:43 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Guarani info request
Tim May wrote at 2004-09-19 18:59:42 (+0100)
> Trebor Jung wrote at 2004-09-17 17:22:00 (-0400)
> >
> > This sounds pretty cool! Does anyone have any other info on
> > Guarani? (Quotes from books would be appreciated... :) ) I've read
> > a bit about its phonology online and that's pretty cool too...
> >
>
> Have you read conlanger Daniel Andr�asson's thesis on active
> languages? It includes a section on Guaran�, among others.
>
> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be online any more - I have a copy,
> but it's a pdf - do you have any software that can manage that?
Since I posted this, a couple of people have written asking me for
copies of Daniel's thesis. If anyone else wants one, you might find
it more convenient to download a copy from here:
http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?t=5554
where a poster on the Zompist board has put it up following a parallel
thread which Trebor started there.
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:21:05 +0100
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
On 19 Sep 2004 Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe I've indicated a lack of faith in the utility of such
> specifications at all.
In my interpretation, this issue is about to help Rodlox to find
a correct phonetical representation for his/her specifications.
Unfortunately, we got involved with each other's argumentation
instead.
> The question, however, was whether the voiceless uvular fricative
> occurs in more well-known languages, which it certainly does.
For me, this is not exactly the question. The question is what
extent of the populace is aware of a given phonetical
characteristic. In this respect, some features of well-known
languages can be less evident than other features of less-known
languages.
> Some books give [X] as the value of /x/ after back vowels in
> Modern Standard High German
I do not bring into question of your information of standard High
German [X], but popular works as Duden's Aussprachew�rterbuch do
not mention this feature. My Ausprachew�rterbuch (3rd edition,
1990) conveys |ach!| as [ax] and not [aX] despite of the fact that
it gives detailed allophone inventory for other phonemes, e.g.
enumerates four representations of syllable-initial /r/.
Therefore a German example for [X] could be informative of
experts of High German phonology, but it could be misleading for
others, e.g. for those who are informed from Duden.
> I'll have it noted that X-SAMPA thinks that [J\] is a modified
> 'j'. The IPA symbol also seems to be based on 'j'.
X-SAMPA thinks also that [J] is a modified 'j': in this respect
'j' means simply any palatal phoneme and the form of 'j' reflects
their frequency (j > J > j\ > J\). But in Rodlox's notation this
feature is expressed already by modifying letter |y|. Therefore
the first, base letter reflects rather other phonetical
characteristics.
(As for IPA, voiceless pair of [J\] is a simple Latin letter [c]
and it has no tight connection with it phonetical value. Both this
assignment and [J\] seems to be rather odds and ends then a
systematic one. Moreover, Unicode chart says about [J\]: "also
archaic phonetic for palatoalveolar (sic!) affricate 02A4 [dZ]",
i.e. this letter was invented originally for [dZ].)
> No, but orthographic devices that are not perfectly systematic are
> often approximately so. It would a priori be unsurprising if all
> all digraphs in -y denoted palatals.
The only reason for |-y| = palatal assigment is Rodlox's notation
|jy| for [J\]. On the contrary you seemed to be scheptic about the
existence of "Eastern European" palatal fricatives. My proposal
for Rodlox -- since he/she gave no exact phonetical assigments --
is that |-y| should mean prepalatal (i.e. alveolopalatal) locus,
that is |sy| = /s\/, |zy| = /z\/. This makes possible also the
existence of true palatal "allophones" [C], [j\]. (Rodlox's
inventory lacks grapheme for [j], it would be a quite extraordinary
system which has phoneme /j\/ but /j/ is missing. This can be
another counter-argument against |zy| = /j\/.)
For the reasons I outlined in my previous postings, and for the
symmetry of the orthography, I propose |jy| as /dz\/ (with a
possible allophonic representation [J\j\]). This still allows
specification >>jy (like "DJoser" in Ancient Egyptian)<< and the
orthography remains systematic. (The systematic solution for /J\/
would be rather |dy| even if |-y| would be treated as true palatal
marker.)
> Rodlox, however, said it was like in EEan languages when
> describing the orthograpy, which certainly _suggests_ he believes
> some or other EEan language uses them in the same way.
Rodlox acknowledged my preconception that this was only an
Eastern Europish impression: "well...I thought I had seen an
Eastern European name written like that...somewhere."
My efforts aimed to establish a system that is really Eastern
European and could have graphemes like |sy|, |zy|, |jy| (if its
orthography would be re-designed).
IMHO there are only two possible Eastern European prototypes:
1. Slavic languages having (nearly) full _palatalized_ series, like
e.g. Russian, Bulgarian. In these systems, |sy| would be [s'], |zy|
would be [z'] and |jy| would be [d'] (if we insist on plosive
representation, or [dZ'] if not).
2. On the contrary the above languages have near full palatalized
series. The ones with defective series have either palatals or
prepalatals. And there are no languages even of this type, where
palatal fricatives exist but palatal nasal is missing. However,
alveolopalatal fricatives may occur in themselves, cf. Chinese. To
return to Eastern Europe, we can find languages where palatal
sibillants are realized prepalatally, e.g. Polish. But in Polish
common Western Slavic [J\] < [d'] is realized also as a prepalatal
affricate [dz\]. Moreover, in Polish (pre)palatals are conveyed
often (before vowels to be exact) as digraphs, however their second
element is |i|. But if we would re-design the system with |y|
instead of |i|, we would get Rodlox-style |syano| [s\anO] 'hay',
|zyemya| [z\em'a] 'earth' (original spellings: |siano|, |ziemia|).
Therefore I think the best model in this field for Rodlox's system
is a variation of Polish where the palatals were lost and the
prepalatals retained (except unvoiced [ts\]).
> I originally asked specifically about _Latin_ orthographies, but
> good to know anyway.
I do not want to contradict you but I do not remember explicit
narrowing for Latin script. After browsing postings I found still
general questions as e.g. 18/09: "Since you appear to be familiar
with EEan languages, do you know any that uses the digraphs 'sy'
and 'zy'?"
I did not exlude Romanizations as for myself because Rodlox's
source for |sy| and |zy| could be a transcribed Cyrillic text.
But to provide you an example from a Latin orthography, I present
Uzbek translation of Universal Declaration of Human Rights at
<http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/uzb.htm>. Here you can found a
word |xususyii|.
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:20:12 +0100
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Orthography help, please.
On 19 Sep 2004 bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The phonemes are: (orthography is indicated for those that I've
> decided upon)
Did you set up the phonotactics yet? Are there geminates in your
conlang? Are consonant clusters CR allowed? -- where C = (/t/, /d/,
/n/, /s/, /z/, /K/, /K\/, /r\/, /l/) and R = (/r\/, /r\'/) Etc.
I propose:
/l/ l
/r\/ r
Shift to the palate may be rendered by adding |y|:
/S/ sy
/Z/ zy
If sequence /ng/ can be excluded:
/N/ ng
/Ng/ ngg
I do not see /h/ in your list, thus grapheme |h| can be a
diacritic for aspirates:
/t_h/ th
/d_h/ dh
/k_h/ kh
/g_h/ gh
Pharyngealized phonemes may be conveyed by |q| or |c|:
/k_?\/ kq, kc
/g_?\/ gq, gc
/m_?\/ mq, mc
/N_?\/ nq, nc (IMHO /n_?\/ can be barred out)
If clusters CR are not permitted*, retroflexes can be marked by
an |r|:
/t`/ tr
/d`/ dr
/n`/ nr
/s`/ sr
/z`/ zr
/r\`/ rr
/l`/ lr
Lateral fricatives could be written as:
/K/ sl
/K\/ zl
but there are retroflex pairs that could result in trigraphs:
/K/ slr
/K\/ zlr
therefore they might have less intuitive single-letter graphemes:
/K/ x
/K\/ j
/K`/ xr
/K\`/ jr
* If there are CR clusters, ambiquity can be resolved by an
apostrophe, e.g. /t`/ tr vs. /tr\/ t'r. Or retroflex pronunciation
can be assigned to the apostrophe: /t`/ t' vs. /tr\/ tr.
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:22:09 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: S7 has a name: Q'en|gai
On Sunday 19 September 2004 21:21, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'd like to proudly announce the official name of my
> current conlang, S7: it is called:
>
> Q'en|g�i
>
> The pronunciation in X-Sampa is: [q_>@_M.n|\gaI)_F],
> which, when decoded, means:
> syllable 1:
> - ejective uvular voiceless plosive,
> - schwa
> - mid level tone (IPA 3)
>
> syllable 2:
> - voiced nasalised dental click with velar plosive
> release - dipthong [a] + [I]
> - falling tone (IPA 4-2)
>
> Bye,
> Henrik
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
*wrings Henrik's neck, only in imagination, though* I don't
get it, could you please upload a sound file?!
--
Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:21:44 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Further language development Q's
Hey!
El Tedashan 19 Sep.an 2004 21:19 enin, Th. Wier meshen�:
> So, you may want to consider keeping
> vestiges of the trigger system around. (Ask me about
> Mingrelian sometime, which is a really neat example of
> vestiges like this.)
You are asked herewith. Am I a questionee now? :-P
> As you
> probably know, many morphologically ergative languages,
> like Basque, have accusative syntax, and so one cannot
> properly speaking call the absolutive case a subject
> unless you show syntactic criteria that it behaves as
> such.
I didn't know that. I guess I should have a look at that
Basque grammar I've once found. The reason I haven't dared
to have a look at it is that I was frightened by the
terminology. And the twisted worldview.
What I have learnt here is that languages always show traces
of both systems, accusative and ergative. And now I try to
have a look at what Javier BF wrote about Basque and
transitivity. That's also one thing I haven't fully
understood yet, I mean why transitivity is important for
Basque verbs. I know what the terms (in/di)transitive mean.
> > I mean like in the
> > example I gave, "to invent" -> "being invented", where
> > "being invented" is "invent.CAU".
>
> This sounds more like a passive to me than a causative.
Yeah, actually you're right. Nevertheless I don't see why I
should not form stative passives with the causative. IMO,
something is "caused to be done" after all.
Carsten
--
Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:36:07 +0100
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Imperatives in split-S languages (was Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano
uvulars and Guarani info request)
On 19 Sep 2004 J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Quality verbs (used for adjectives) take S_o
> >
> > "Transitive and Intransitive verbs may be placed in the imperative. Quality
> > verbs cannot."
> >
> > This sounds pretty cool!
>
> And it makes sense, as the quality verbs are not about actually *doing*
> something. It is the same way in my conlang Old Albic (a fluid-S
> language).
AFAIK |tasy| 'be-ill' is a quality verb in Guarani: |xe rasy| 'I
am-ill', |nde rasy| 'you are-ill', |hasy| < *|ha'e tasy| 'he/she is-
ill', |nda.ore.rasy.i| 'we-are-not-ill'.
If this verb has no imperative, how can English sentence 'Do not
be ill!' is translated into Guarani? Or in Old Albic?
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:23:58 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang IRC server
On Sunday 19 September 2004 08:50, Steg Belsky wrote:
> I remember people did that a while ago... they made a
> #conlang channel over on... Dalnet, i think it was. As
> far as i know, it's been defunct for a few years.
On the ZBB, someone made a channel called #almea, I just
don't know the server offhand. In any case, it's *not*
freedomirc anymore (IIRC), because there, two people of us
have been banned from this server forever, without
committing "crime". Even Freedomirc said this may happen
and is a bug in the software!
Yay, in any case a #conlang channel would be a great idea.
Hm... if this would reduce the offtopic discussions and
flamewars here?
Carsten
AFTEREDIT: It's foreverchat.net
--
Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:36:31 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: AAAUUUUGH! (was Re: consport/congaming)
On Sunday 19 September 2004 13:51, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > Can we please think twice, then leave the computer, go
> > get a cup of chai and a cigarette,
>
> I must object to this! I don't smoke! :-)))
>
> Sorry, I could not resist. :-) But tee is good, will get
> one now.
>
> **Henrik
>
> > Let's get back to Conlanging, or at least to general
> > language or linguistics discussion, and leave the
> > partisanship (on *any* subject) at the door.
>
> Definitely.
Agreed!!!!!
<nitpicking>Btw, Henrik, it's _tea_</nitpicking>.
--
Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:41:18 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LLL Weekly Update #11/2004
----- Original Message -----
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:56 PM
Subject: LLL Weekly Update #11/2004
> Hallo!
hi.
> I know I am one day late,
no worries.
> but here's this week's update on the LLL.
> and rodlox (what's
> his real name?)
I Am.
(yes, I Know, I had a few centuries where I didn't Write anything much).
:)
> about Spanish loans in Orinoco English.
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