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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Guarani info request
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Imperatives in split-S languages (was Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano
uvulars and Guarani info request)
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Orthography help, please.
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?)
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Trigger languages Re: Further language development Q's
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Trigger Systems? Re: Further language development Q's
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: The etymology of (King) Arthur (was Re: CHAT: reign names)
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: AAAUUUUGH! (was Re: consport/congaming)
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:18:31 -0700
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
--- Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I know subsets can contain one or no members.... I
> was just worrying
> about the fact that if you differentiate between
> subsets and elements,
> this doesn't necessarily distinguish between
> singular and plural... so
> if I incorporated this into a language (in some way)
> then I'd need to
> make number optional, or marked in a separate way
> (I'm addicted to
> compulsory number marking lol.... is there a number
> marking anonymous?)
I more or less can see the problem, but I think we
should discuss on concrete examples. Anyway, IMO, when
making a conlang, one should always preserve the
possibility of leaving a feature optional. For ex, if
you have a simple distinction singular / plural, it
could be wise to add a third possibility: undefined
(and possibly more, like: I know how many, but I won't
tell, etc.) If I'm not mistaken, Basque uses an
undefined number ("one or several"). If we look at XML
specifications for ex, we can see how it manages
cardinality. There is a symbol (I of course forgot
which one) meaning "0, 1 or several", another meaning
"1 or several", another meaning "0 or 1", and if I
remember, adding nothing means "1 and only 1". This
looks very fundamental.
We also find in some computer languages the concept of
"null", for ex, "true / false" is no more simply
binary, it becomes "trinary" (or ternary ?): true,
false or null. So I would always preserve at least one
possibility for "undefined" in every opposition (and
probably, express this "undefined" by using no mark at
all). For ex, male / female: if you see a mouse
running on the floor, I guess you'll find it hard to
decide, without closer examination, if it's a male or
a female one. Clearly here we should have the
possibilities of saying: a male mouse, a female mouse,
or a mouse of undefined sex (or gender). French says
"la souris" but "le chat", while German and Russian
both say "la souris" and "la chat". The gender has
absolutely no meaning, because "la souris" can be male
while "le chat" can be female. This is a natlang
aberration.
> >(BTW, another interesting question: when I say:
> "The
> >Americans elected a President named Bush", "The
> >Americans walked on the Moon", and "The Americans
> >fought against each other during Secession War"),
> what
> >does "the Americans" mean in each case ? Seems they
> >are different sets, or subsets).
> >
> >
> The problem of plurality seems more difficult than I
> thought at first.
> What a plural argument means seems to vary from verb
> to verb and from
> argument to argument. Using your example, "elected"
> very strongly
> suggests that "the americans" performed the act
> together, since to elect
> someone you all have to vote in the same election.
> But in some other
> examples, the implication is different... perhaps
> this varies from verb
> to verb, or is simply implied by the situation and
> can vary even when
> the verb is the same?
I can see the problem at that level more or less like
this :
- "the Americans" can mean the whole of the (living)
Americans, at the moment I speak
- "the Americans" can mean a subset or the previous
(ex: the ones who walked on the Moon are actually very
few), or "the majority of them", or "the majority of a
subset of them" (in case of elections)
- "the Americans" can be considered as a continuum,
some of them being already dead, others still alive
- "the Americans" can mean a subset of the previous
- "the Americans" can mean "historical Americans" (all
dead already, "die damaligen Amerikaner"), or a subset
of them.
So the two main concepts here seem to be: 1/ the whole
or a subset (or: the majority); 2/ contemporaneity or
not.
I don't speak Hopi neither, I just mentioned the Whorf
(was it Whorf ?) theory saying that the Hopis don't
consider that, for ex, "three" is the same thing in
"three men" and "three days". The idea was that there
cannot be such a thing as "three days", it is three
times the same day. This clearly rejoins the previous
discussion: do we consider that "three" must be "three
at the same time", or that a time factor can be
included in the concept ? We could also wonder: is
"three" the same thing if the three objects are
present together, or if some of them are not in sight
? (I have three apples at this very moment, two of
them you can see because I hold them in my hands, the
third one being hidden in my drawer) ? So we could
think that there is such a thing as "three in
presence", "three in the same moment", "three in
history"... The idea that these are all "three" is an
abstraction, I guess that might not be so obvious for
everybody in the world.
*sigh* I'm
> going to go away now
> and create some looney language, or just go quietly
> insane myself lol....
Don't worry, I already went insane a long time ago :-)
Welcome to the club.
=====
Philippe Caquant
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor illis (Ovidius).
Populus me sibilat, at mihi plaudo (Horatius).
Interdum stultus opportune loquitur (Henry Fielding).
Scire leges non hoc est verba earum tenere, sed vim ac potestatem (Somebody).
Melius est ut scandalum oriatur, quam ut veritas relinquatur (Somebody else).
Ceterum censeo *vi* esse oblitterandum (Me).
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:58:41 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Guarani info request
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:22:00 -0400, Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Apparently, Cebuano has uvulars-- or at least that's the impression I get
>from the spelling. I never knew Cebuano (or Austronesianlangs, for that
>matter) had such sounds...
>
>"(38) a. nag-tawag ang babayi nakuq.
>SUBJ.FOCUS,DUR-call TOPIC woman 1SG,NONTOPIC
>'the woman was calling me'
>b. babayi ang nag-tawag nakuq.
>woman TOPIC SUBJ.FOCUS,DUR-call 1SG,NONTOPIC
>'the one who was calling me was a woman'"
>
>(from the excellent clause-type paper
><http://linguistics.buffalo.edu/people/faculty/dryer/dryer/clausetypes.pdf>
)
>
>In the Conlang Collaboration group, Paul Bennett �rta: "...let me quickly
>summarise the split-S language Guarani, because it's quite interesting:
>
>"Transitive verbs ('give', 'steal', 'know') take A and O
>Intransitive verbs ('go', 'remain', 'follow') take S_a
>Quality verbs (used for adjectives) take S_o
>
>"Transitive and Intransitive verbs may be placed in the imperative. Quality
>verbs cannot."
>
>This sounds pretty cool! Does anyone have any other info on Guarani?
>(Quotes from books would be appreciated... :) ) I've read a bit about its
>phonology online and that's pretty cool too...
If you know Spanish, then the following articles may interest you:
http://www.vjf.cnrs.fr/celia/Fr/Am_Lang.htm#GUARANI
I found after all the following article interesting. The second section is
full of samples. I must warn you that even though it's written in Spanish
it's a typical German article, with much content but few structure:
http://www.vjf.cnrs.fr/celia/FichExt/Am/A_14_02.htm
=============================================================
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:36:07 +0100, Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 19 Sep 2004 J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Quality verbs (used for adjectives) take S_o
>> >
>> > "Transitive and Intransitive verbs may be placed in the imperative.
>> > Quality verbs cannot."
>> >
>> > This sounds pretty cool!
>>
>> And it makes sense, as the quality verbs are not about actually *doing*
>> something. It is the same way in my conlang Old Albic (a fluid-S
>> language).
>
> AFAIK |tasy| 'be-ill' is a quality verb in Guarani: |xe rasy| 'I
>am-ill', |nde rasy| 'you are-ill', |hasy| < *|ha'e tasy| 'he/she is-
>ill', |nda.ore.rasy.i| 'we-are-not-ill'.
Not that I'd know much about it, but I doubt that the initial alternation
between t-r-h (as in _tape_ 'way', _xe rape_, 'my way',
_hape_ 'his/her/their way') can be explained with _ha'e_.
> If this verb has no imperative, how can English sentence 'Do not
>be ill!' is translated into Guarani?
I doubt that the available grammars would answer whether this is
grammatical in Guarani.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:04:20 +0200
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Imperatives in split-S languages (was Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano
uvulars and Guarani info request)
On 20 Sep 2004 Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Don't _get/become_ sick" i.e. stay healthy, is OK.
You are right here -- and I was aware of it since Hungarian verb
for 'to be' works this way -- but in this case, quality verbs have
no future either. A verb "be-sick" describes a particular status,
therefore, it cannot describe a future change in status.
In this case, every quality verb should have a shadow form for
describing changing of that quality, let's call them "mutation
verb" here. Mutation verbs lack presence, though, since utterances
like "I become sick" refer to the future.
Thus we have two defective paradigms which complements each
other. In this case why we should not state that verb "be-sick" has
a suppletive imperative like "become be-sick". Moreover, in
contrast to English, the copulative verb is not exchanged to
another (be > get/become), the original qualitaty verb "be-sick" is
retained (since there is no other way to express of "being-sick").
Therefore any additive elements like "get/become" can be treated as
an auxiliary. In this sence there is a true imperative for quality
verbs but they are formed differently as non-quality ones. (In
fact, according to my source, quality verbs have a different
paradigm in Guarani). If constructions like "become be-sick" cannot
be considered as imperative of "be-sick", then English "will be
sick" cannot be future either.
Similar phenomena can be observed in Slavic languages in case of
perfect ~ imperfect verb pairs (i.e. in concept of "vid" in Slavic
terms). Thus I think this issue could be rather a form of "vid"
than a special feature of quality verbs. (Quality verbs always
belong to imperfect "vid", "mutation" verbs to perfect "vid".)
In languages not implementing the concept of "vid", quality verbs
may have imperative. E.g. in Hungarian there are a number of
quality verbs like: |�r�l| 'be glad/happy', |s�rg�ll(ik)| 'be
yellow (e.g. a cornfield)', |l�ngol| 'be in flames' etc. There is
no problem to form their imperative, e.g. when I wait in a crossing
for the green light, I can "hurry" the traffic lamp saying
|Z�ldellj m�r!| 'Come on, be (=become) green!' < |z�ldell(ik)| 'be
green'.
I am really eager to know how to say "be X!" or even "get/become
X!" in actual languages using quality verbs "be-X". Unfortunately,
my source on
Guarani lacks these forms, but I would be statisfied even with Old
Albic :)
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:17:50 +0200
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Orthography help, please.
On 20 Sep 2004 bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The way I work on a language is phonemes first, orthography second,
> tactics last of the sound/sound representation section of the language.
> So, no, I do not have the phonotactics yet. I just started on it this
> weekend.
If I were you :)) I would fix the basics of phonotactics before
development of orthography because spelling possibilities are
limited by the allowed sound clusters. If you would choose e.g.
|tr| for /t`/ you would have later problems with the notation of
sound cluster /tr\/ (if you will admit it in the phonotactics).
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:57:28 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?)
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodlox
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:55 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?)
----- Original Message -----
From: David Peterson
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?)
Rodlox wrote:
<< ie "Que wot be thee."
("what are you?" loose translation - please take no offense...that example
was atop my notes today).>>
This is another place where an interlinear translation was absolutely
necessary. Why? Because you talk about "the question word", but to my
eyes, there appear to be two: "que" and "wot". So when you said "the question
word", which one did you mean?
"que"
in Orinoco English, words like "wot" seem to be statements rather than queries.
I'll *try* an interlinear...
"Que wot be thee."
" ? / what is / state-of-being / you "
"What are you?"
how was that?
<< so...would that make Orinoco English a qSVO language? *curious*>>
The answer is "no", but I'll wait to see your interlinear to explain why. One
thing might help out quite a bit: How would you say "You are a teacher",
or "Thou art a teacher",
that would probably have an interlinear more like "state-of-being / teacher /
you"...though I may be wrong.
"be" and "art" seem to be pretty much interchangable, as far as I've seen of
Orinoco English.
> or "Thou art" anything? (Oh, and note: The word
order of the sentence you listed appears to be subject final.)
oh...sorry. still climbing the tower of comprehension, and my stomach doesn't
like heights.
:)
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:57:09 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Trigger languages Re: Further language development Q's
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Constructed Languages List <
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: Trigger languages Re: Further language development Q's
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Constructed Languages List <
> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 10:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Trigger languages Re: Further language development Q's
>
>
> >
> > I sent an email, but it may not have gotten sent...
> >
> > what is a trigger language? are there language groups/families in
which
> > triggers are not found? what purpose do triggers serve?
> >
> > (and please don't say "triggers love to bounce") :)
> >
> >
> >
>
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:56:54 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Trigger Systems? Re: Further language development Q's
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Constructed Languages List <
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: Trigger Systems? Re: Further language development Q's
> conlaang server sent this back to me.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 10:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Trigger Systems? Re: Further language development Q's
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 6:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: Further language development Q's
> >
> >
> > > Hey!
> > >
> > > El Tedashan 19 Sep.an 2004 21:19 enin, Th. Wier meshen�:
> > >
> > > > So, you may want to consider keeping
> > > > vestiges of the trigger system around. (Ask me about
> > > > Mingrelian sometime, which is a really neat example of
> > > > vestiges like this.)
> > >
> > > You are asked herewith. Am I a questionee now? :-P
> >
> > I ask too!
> >
> > btw, what is a Trigger System? and what does it do?
> >
> >
> >
>
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:01:15 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The etymology of (King) Arthur (was Re: CHAT: reign names)
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:44, Paul Bennett wrote:
<snip>
>
> I understand that while Arthur is a composite, there was a Romano-Britsh
> leader (originally a Cavalry commander), with a bear as his standard.
Future generations of historians will say there was an Anglo-German Queen with
the Corgi as her standard, and they will go slowly mad trying to connect her
and the corgis - the sacred animal of the British Isles, apparently - with
the English Lion and the Welsh Dragon. Perhaps some of them will connect the
British Throne with the creature known in its Australian Commonwealth as the
Drongo, and argue that "Dragon" is a misspelling. :-)
(I don't propose to precede them into madness. ;)
> There was a really good documentary on the History Channel that examined
> the historical evidence to reconstruct as much of the Arthurian truth as
> they could. The show then spent time on Mallory and Geoffrey of Monmouth
> and so on, showing how the vague details of history became the legend we
> know today. I wish I could remember more details about him and his
> contemporaries (I can't even remember the names of the histories he's
> refered to in), but it has been a while since I saw the documentary. The
> name "Arth Ur" was posited during that documentary as plausibly combining
> the Celtic and Latin words for "bear", in agreement with the bear on the
> battle-flag.
>
>
>
>
> Paul
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:07:23 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: AAAUUUUGH! (was Re: consport/congaming)
But I don't have nits!
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:36, Carsten Becker wrote:
> On Sunday 19 September 2004 13:51, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> > Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > > Can we please think twice, then leave the computer, go
> > > get a cup of chai and a cigarette,
> >
> > I must object to this! I don't smoke! :-)))
> >
> > Sorry, I could not resist. :-) But tee is good, will get
> > one now.
> >
> > **Henrik
> >
> > > Let's get back to Conlanging, or at least to general
> > > language or linguistics discussion, and leave the
> > > partisanship (on *any* subject) at the door.
> >
> > Definitely.
>
> Agreed!!!!!
>
> <nitpicking>Btw, Henrik, it's _tea_</nitpicking>.
>
> --
> Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
> Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
> - Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
> -> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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