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There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Dan Sulani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Hobbits spoke ?
From: Dan Sulani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Rejected posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "L-Soft list server at Brown University (1.8d)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. LLL Weekly Update #17/2004
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: samhain?
From: Cian Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: samhain?
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. samhain?
From: joshua tanaka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: samhain?
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:02:48 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
----- Original Message -----
From: Isaac A. Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
> Carsten Becker wrote:
>
> > Using clay
> > bricks is not that widely spread. So should I rather
> > translate "Let's gather stones and wood" etc. because this
> > method belongs more tightly to the concept of building a
> > house and is more commonly known?
>
> No. This is wrong because bricks are important for the meaning of the
story.
setting the theological parts aside, God couldn't destroy a house made of
stones or wood?
> For that purpose we need to know the essence of the story, what is
relevant
> and what is irrelevant. In this particular case bricks, being man-made,
are
> essential for the meaning, as opposed to stones, given by G-d as they are.
um, that might be true, but stones can be shaped just as well as bricks can
be (since mud was given by God, too).
> This is one of the principles the Wycliff Translators use. I think it is
> basicly wrong. When the cultural element in the story is relevant, it must
> be preserved, even if it needs long explanations, but not re-interpreted.
> Otherwise you can have smth like "In older days there were news, and the
> news were together with Humpbacked Spirit..."
Quasimodo!
:)
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 08:54:45 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan van Steenbergen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> --- Mark J. Reed skrzypszy:
>
>> I only added that as an aside in my post, whose primary purpose
>> was to ask why some Germans are "ashamed" to say [T]. Feeling
>> ashamed about producing a phone just strikes me as odd. I still
>> don't understand it.
>
> In Dutch, [T] can only be heard in the speech of people with a speech
> defect. And I think that's the answer to your question. Even though
> the effect is not the same when Dutch people speak English, many of
> them are hesitant to use it even there. It's like the fear to get
> undressed before entering a sauna, even if you know that all the
> others are undressed, too. ;)
>
> Likewise, certain sounds only exist in certain dialects (which are
> often looked down upon by the speakers of the "standard" language),
> and they are likely to produce the same effect.
>
> Jan
I'm not sure I'd call it "shame"; perhaps discomfort? I'll admit to feeling
a little silly pronouncing Spanish the Castillian way. Cerveza and zapato
make me feel as though I'm lisping, and having grown up with Mexican
Spanish, it's extra work for me to remember what is an "s" and what isn't.
When I was in Geneva, I used to speak to one of the local shop owners who
didn't know much English. She was trying to thank me in English, and it was
Tenk you. She wanted instruction, so I told her to put her tongue between
the tips of her upper and lower front teeth and hiss. She burst into
uncontrollable laughter. I couldn't get her to make the sound, she was so
distracted by the silliness of it. So I guess I can relate to Dutch and
German discomfort! I've produced similar hilarity in students I'm trying to
teach the Welsh lateral fricative to. But [T], I think, has more negative
charge in many cultures.
Heh heh, this reminds me of something funny: my mother once insisted on
pronouncing Shakespeare's Othello as /o'tElo/, because she was all enthused
about Verdi's opera Otello. It's not that she didn't think we were
performing in Shakespeare's play, she was convinced that Shakespeare
himself, like Verdi, pronounced it Otello. (She might have been right; how
do we know how Shakespeare pronounced it?) But I remember being
excrutiatingly embarrassed when one of my fellow actors came over to my
house and Mom said, "So, I understand you are Iago in Otello." "It's
Othello, Mom," under my breath. Ignoring me: "I've always thought Otello
was one of Shakespeare's greatest plays..."
Mother is an artist, a singer, an autodidact, a voracious reader and a
formidable woman, and that was about thirty years ago. But I wonder if the
"th" thingie was operant there? [t] was clearly culturally superior to our
plain old English [T] in this one word "Othello" so she "elevated" it. :)
:)
Sally
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:15:32 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:04:52 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 1:45 PM
>Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
>
>
>> On Saturday 30 October 2004 17:25, Jeffrey Henning wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:32:57 -0000, caeruleancentaur
>
>> As I wrote, I thought my people know what bricks are etc.,
>> but bricks are not very much used.
>
> minor question - are bricks not much used because they're seen as
>expensive/unclean/other ? the answer to that might - *might* - influence
>how your conlang's speakers would view the Tower of Babel when you translate
>it.
>
> just a thought.
> sorry.
>
> have nice days.
Phew, I haven't thought about that yet.
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:14:34 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
Everyone gets them because they're sent to the list address ... and for some
time, I usually receive 0 to 5 spam messages from the list. Not from pseudo
list members, but I receive them. :(
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:09:14 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
----- Original Message -----
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:04:52 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 1:45 PM
> >Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
> >
> >
> >> On Saturday 30 October 2004 17:25, Jeffrey Henning wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:32:57 -0000, caeruleancentaur
> >
> >> As I wrote, I thought my people know what bricks are etc.,
> >> but bricks are not very much used.
> >
> > minor question - are bricks not much used because they're seen as
> >expensive/unclean/other ? the answer to that might - *might* - influence
> >how your conlang's speakers would view the Tower of Babel when you
translate
> >it.
> >
> > just a thought.
> > sorry.
> >
> > have nice days.
>
> Phew, I haven't thought about that yet.
oh.
oops.
sorry.
please accept my apologies.
>
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 08:07:20 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:17:14 +0200, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A fair number of browsers, if told to use font X, will display "funny
> characters" (e.g. IPA) if those characters are in that font but only
> squares or question marks (or similar) if the characters are not in
> that font, while other browsers are smart enough to look in other
> available fonts for such characters -- but then you get the effect
> that the page uses a mixture of fonts, and it might be preferable to
> display the entire page in a font with a wide character repertoire.
Some browsers do better than others, I think. Opera, if it has to
change fonts, will keep the changed font for the rest of the word, even
if the default font has the characters. This is decent for example if
Japanese is used on a page, though it can be slightly disconcerting-looking
for example with a font that only has modern Greek characters switching
fonts mid-word when it needs to display a circumflex or digamma, for example.
Firefox just replaces the unusual character.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:30:56 +0300
From: Dan Sulani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On 28 Oct, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> My conlang Sohlob was originally _Sahrab_, but then I discovered
> that this is a Pakistani surname, so lest I offend some Mr/Ms
> Sahrab I changed the name to _Sahlab_, only to discover that this
> is a (modern) Egyptian drink of some kind
The word also exists in Hebrew. It translates out as "orchid"!
While I can't vouch for what the Egyptians put into their
version of the drink, I have seen it sold here as an instant powdered
food. The box, IIRC, claimed that it contained powdered "orchid".
This is obviously not the same flower that is rare and expensive,
but probably something more common from the same family.
I actually tried to make the stuff once (from the powder).
It was pretty vile! IMNSHO, many (if not most :-P ) instant foods
can be grouped with it under the same "vile" heading!
Now, There is a useful new gender for those of us
whose langs mark such things: "instant-vile"! ;-)
Anyhow, to add my experience to the discussion of
(mis)Naming a Language: If I google for my conlang as it is spelled,
rtemmu with 2 m's, I get only references to my conlang.
But if I search for rtemu with 1 m, I get all kinds of interesting stuff.
Much of it seems to be about computing, especially emulators.
Any computer people here know what RETMU has to do with?
Dan Sulani
------------------------------------------------------------------
likehsna rtem zuv tikuhnuh auag inuvuz vaka'a.
A word is an awesome thing.
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:47:23 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
Danny Wier and others:
> About once per day I'm getting "Rejected posting" e-mails from our
> Listserv
> saying "You are not authorized to send mail to the CONLANG list from your
> account", followed by header information, and then various types of spam.
> Is
> it just me or is anyone/everyone else getting these?
>
FWIW, I'm _not_ receiving any such msgs.
I did receive them, and lots more too, back in March/April when my comp. was
beset with spyware and the virus that was going around then.
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:02:41 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:30:56 +0300, Dan Sulani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But if I search for rtemu with 1 m, I get all kinds of interesting stuff.
> Much of it seems to be about computing, especially emulators.
> Any computer people here know what RETMU has to do with?
'emu' is an obvious shortening of 'emulator'; 'RT' may refer to
'real-time' -- that is, programs that are designed to react 'in real
time' to user input, with guaranteed response times in the base code.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:26:05 +0300
From: Dan Sulani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke ?
On 29 Oct, Ray Brown wrote:
> On Thursday, October 28, 2004, at 07:53 , Rodlox wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> and would these "Hobbits" and Neandertals have spoken more in their
>> throats
>> or with the fronts of their mouths (principally dental sounds), given
>> their
>> voice box placement?
>
> The placement of our voice boxes does not limit us to either the front of
> the mouth or just to the throat. We use the _whole_ of the vocal tract
> from the nose and lips right through to the glottis. If they were limited
> to the front of the mouth, it implies their voice box was situated there,
> which seems to me quite improbable. If their voice box was in the throat
> (as I assume it was), why, if they were capable of speech, should the
> so-called 'Hobbits' and of Neanderthals not have used the whole vocal
> tract just as we do?
Emphasis on the word "our" voice boxes! (And those with similar
anatomy!) The placement of the larynx has a definite effect
on the mobility of the tongue! Especially on everything
from the velars on back. Chimps have their larynx much higher in their
throats than we do and, AFAIK, it shows in their ability to manipulate the
back of the tongue.
IIRC, there seems to be a correlation between the angle at which the
head is held and the depth of the larynx in the throat. With us, there
is roughly a 90 degree angle between our tongue and our throat which
contains the larynx. (That's one reason why laryngeal examinations can't
be done when sitting in a chair at the doctor and simply opening the mouth
and saying "ah": the doctor can see straight to the back of the mouth; but
he can't see around the bend and down the throat --- not without
straightening out the line between the mouth and the throat, which is
generally not too comfortable! In some cases it must be done under
anesthesia!)
Anyhow, our larynx has dropped enough so not only is the back of the
tongue completely free to move, so is the part facing the throat
(the "root" of the tongue), giving us all those lovely pharyngeals!
I remember reading that reseachers have tried to guess at the depth
of the larynx in ancient skeletons, based upon the angle that the head
connected to the spinal column, and from there, as to the likelihood
of speech.
The really important thing, though, seems to be the hyoid bone.
The tongue anchors to it as does the larynx. Without a hyoid bone,
there would be no ejectives (the glottis may close, but the larynx
would have no way to rise), and tongue mobility, again would be
very limited!
The question as to whether Neandethals could speak became
very interesting after one specimen was found with an (more or less)
intact hyoid bone! This, of course, _proves_ nothing (as was stated,
only a time machine could do that). But it certainly offers testimony
that tongue-mobility and speech were distinctly possible.
Dan Sulani
------------------------------------------------------------------
likehsna rtem zuv tikuhnuh auag inuvuz vaka'a.
A word is an awesome thing.
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:36:54 -0500
From: "L-Soft list server at Brown University (1.8d)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Rejected posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:42:19 +0100
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: LLL Weekly Update #17/2004
Hallo!
The lostlangs mailing list was silent until a few hours ago, when
Bob posted about the demonstratives of Hifahoshach.
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:39:01 -0500
From: Cian Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
On Sunday 31 October 2004 12:28 pm, joshua tanaka wrote:
> why is 'samhain' pronounced 'saUen' ?
It's Gaelic. O' Do'naill, _Foclo'ir Gaeilge-Be'arla_, translates it as
November or as the name of the ancient festival of the 1st of November.
CKR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:48:11 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
--- Cian Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sunday 31 October 2004 12:28 pm, joshua tanaka
> wrote:
> > why is 'samhain' pronounced 'saUen' ?
>
> It's Gaelic. O' Do'naill, _Foclo'ir
> Gaeilge-Be'arla_, translates it as
> November or as the name of the ancient festival of
> the 1st of November.
>
>
> CKR
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Which is hilarious, as it is now celebrated on the
31st, and has been almost totally removed from it's
gaelic origins. I laugh! Woo. Good times.
-The (overcaffineated and overopinionated) Sock
=====
-The Sock
I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed,
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
-Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:28:54 -0800
From: joshua tanaka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: samhain?
why is 'samhain' pronounced 'saUen' ?
---------------------------------
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:08:23 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
joshua tanaka wrote:
> why is 'samhain' pronounced 'saUen' ?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Irish has a very, very complicated spelling system, to cut a long story
short(though quite regular).
'mh' is [v] in Irish, as well as [w] in some positions, in some
dialects. It's spelt like this because it's a lenited version of /m/.
Another feature of Irish spelling is that, in any given series of
vowels, only one of them need represent the actual vowel spoken.
I'm not clear on whether it's pronounced /savaJ/ or /saviJ/(J being a
palatal nasal, I think), but the (orthographic) vowels surrounding a
consonant affect its pronunciation. Vowels are divided into to
categories for this purpose:
broad vowels - a, o,u
slender vowels - i, e
As I said, these change the pronunciation - slender vowels palatalise a
consonant, broad vowels velarise(or don't affect) it. But, to avoid
ambiguity here, if a slender (phonological) consonant is followed by a
broad phonological vowel, a slender (orthographic) vowel is inserted,
and vice versa. If it's /savaJ/(am not sure if it is), the spelling
'Samhan' would be wrong, because the palatal /n/ would not be shown.
If it's /saviJ/, it would be potentially ambiguous to have 'samhin',
because, in some dialects, broad <mh> is pronounced /w/, as opposed to
/v/, and this distinction would be lost(and it would break the rules,
anyway).
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