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There are 17 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: About perceiving flames. Was Addendum
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Schpamm?!
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: About perceiving flames. Was Addendum
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Schpamm?!
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: "Istinksy"?
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: plural
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Voices
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: AEsir (was: OT, and religeous>
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. NATLANG: icelandic, finnish, english
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: AEsir (was: OT, and religeous>
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: NATLANG: icelandic, finnish, english
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Schpamm?!
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:47:00 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Sunday 05 December 2004 13:40, Stephen Mulraney wrote:
>> Mark J. Reed wrote:
>>
>> I understood John's statement to mean that there exist kinship systems
>> where all kinship terms are reciprocal, rather then "there exist kinship
>> systems where there exist terms that are reciprocal". I'm intruiged now
>> as
>> to whether that's what he meant. It wouldn't seem to fit into the
>> Sudanese-Hawaiian- Eskimo-Iroquois-Omaha-Crow (SHEIOC? SHECIO? HESICO?
>> SEHICO?) classification, but maybe it's more a feature of discourse,
>> rather
>> than of the underlying kinship system.
>>
> I would like to see a kinship system in which all the terms are
> reciprocal.
> I've kinda wanted that for Kelen, but I'm not sure how it would work,
> exactly. I can imagine a Kele�i person saying:
> selne� anp�ra for 'we (paucal, exclusive (hence, dual)) are
> mo-dau-relation'
> But then, I think they also use animate nouns, like:
> map�ra for 'mother, mother's-sister'.
> mal�ca for 'daughter, girl, young woman'.
I think John meant the latter: that there exist kinship systems where
kinship terms are reciprocal but according to the nature of the
relationship. Maybe I don't understand Stephen's distinctions. What I
thought of immediately, as I began to imagine a Teonaht version of it, was
that husband and wife would call each other "spouse," or some such term that
had no gender distinction; that brother and sister would call each other
"sibling" with no distinction in gender either; and even more delightfully
weird, father and son, father and daughter, mother and son, mother and
daughter, parents and children would call each other by a word that meant
"parental-filial kinship relation." Let's call it bazzyt, /ba'zit/.
"Vazzyt!" says the child to his parent. What is it, vazzyt? says the parent
to the child. Of course if one wanted to address his father, one might say
Vazzyt Hmyhhkal! (using the parent's first name). Same with any of the
children. Same with aunt/uncle/niece/nephew, etc.
How cool is that? :)
And none of these terms could be applied to anybody else's family (in
Teonaht). You would never say "how is your vazzyt?" That would be
unconscionably rude, as Vazzyt is a name used very intimately. It would be
like saying "how is your Fred?" when Fred refers to your father. You would
use the outside word, Pantor.
I don't know the Sudanese-Hawaiian-Eskimo-Iriquois-Omaha-Crow classification
at all. But it's also possible to have everyone call each other
"family-member," whether brother, sister, cousin, stepmother, father-in-law,
nephew, etc. Was that what you had in mind, Stephen? And Sylvia, how would
it not work in Kelen? Curious, and still trying to figure Kelen out...
Sally
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 00:59:31 +0200
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
On Monday 06 December 2004 00:47, Sally Caves wrote:
[snip]
and even more delightfully weird, father and son, father and daughter,
mother and son, mother and daughter, parents and children would call
each other by a word that meant "parental-filial kinship relation."
Let's call it bazzyt, /ba'zit/. "Vazzyt!" says the child to his parent.
What is it, vazzyt? says the parent to the child. Of course if one
wanted to address his father, one might say Vazzyt Hmyhhkal! (using the
parent's first name). Same with any of the children. Same with
aunt/uncle/niece/nephew, etc.
Something along these lines exists in colloquial Arabic, at least as far
as children and parents are concerned. In colloquial Arabic (I'm
familiar with Palestinian, but I think it applies more widely), a father
can address his child (of either sex) as "yabba" = ya [vocative] + abba
[father], and a mother can address her child (ditto) as yamma = ya +
[a]mma. In other words the parent says to the child the form of address
the child would be exected to use to them. The child can also use the
same term in replying. These forms are common and not at all esoteric.
I say "can" because there are other possible forms of address (eg the
father could say "ibni" = my son instead).
Delightfully weird? Maybe, and it's going on here every day!
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 23:12:15 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: About perceiving flames. Was Addendum
Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Touch�. I truly had forgotten that Charlie was Fr Charlie Brickner. I
>haven't yet got used to the varying views of the new members - tho I
>am learning very fast at the moment!!
>Please accept my apologies both for imputing to you a motive that was
>certainly incorrect and for the manner of my reply. If had had
>remembered who you were, I would still have replied but I would have
>done so in a very different way.
Thank you very much. I was truly distressed by your response. I
hate being misunderstood, but it so easily happens on line because of
the lack of facial expressions, tone of voice, the ability to
rephrase immediately when misunderstood. But we learn from our
mistakes and I hope I've learned a bit from this one. I believe I
need to phrase my statements a bit more humbly, perhaps use IMHO more
than I do. I know that I have a tendency to pontificate when I think
I know something. Now I am just grateful that the air has been
cleared. This Yahoo group has become a source of great pleasure to
me & I rush to my computer, when ministry gives me time, to see what
gems await me.
Charlie
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 18:14:37 -0500
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Schpamm?!
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:10:05 -0500, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I agree. It'd be normal for a virus to send virus mails to people just
>becuase they're in your address book. Or the sender must have hacked into
>your computer. The email addresses of us active members are all listed
>together with the postings. What do you think why I get spam to the address
>I only use for this list? It's because spambots got my address from the list
>page. So can anyone else.
Well hopefully if my IT manager at work -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gets more
spam (he gets one message a day), he will increase the priority of
implementing a spam solution.
Oh Master of Instrumentality, is there no way to set the archives to
partially mask e-mail addresses? I like the Yahoo Groups approach, which
would present the above address as "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".
Best regards,
Jeffrey
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 18:22:45 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: About perceiving flames. Was Addendum
Oh Ray! I could hug you. Alright, I won't be THAT American! :) Accept a
high five, you, me, Charlie, everybody else. Thanks for your response.
Indeed, I hope we can all look at a comment (myself included) and see in it
neutrality before we see in it a personal snipe, or a rejection, or an
underhanded meaning, or a perceived blasphemy. And you know something about
the beloved Church and doctrine, whichever one we believe in or worship in?
or don't? or reject? :) It will withstand disagreements about theology.
It will withstand disagreement about passages in the Bible. It will even
withstand blasphemy and rejection. It has for two thousand years. Blood
has been shed over these things, but let's not shed any here. We need to
withstand *ourselves.*
Faith in the strength of our faith is enough, I think.
> I hope Sally has noticed that I have not responded to certain other mails
> in recent threads - I have heeded her words about wrestling with certain
> creatures ;)
Heh heh heh! ;) Yep! I noticed!
Pax
Sally
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:24:25 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Schpamm?!
Jeffrey Henning wrote:
>Well hopefully if my IT manager at work -- [snip] -- gets more
>spam (he gets one message a day), he will increase the priority of
>implementing a spam solution.
>
>
That was really low and incredibly bad manners. There are plenty of
solutions for spam that you can install on your own computer, so unless
you're forbidden from installing it, use your own initiative. If you are
forbidden, try and be a bit more diplomatic...
--
Tristan.
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 16:58:53 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Istinksy"?
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 16:29:41 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was told today that "Istinsky", a nickname I have for one of my sisters,
> means
> "truthful" in some language. Can anyone confirm? And if so, what language -
> I'm
> guessing Russian?
Maybe - certainly Slavic enough. My Russian dictionary gives
istina = truth
istinnyj = true
but then the word is in my Bosnian dictionary too
istina = truth
istinit = true.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 16:06:27 -0800
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
On Sunday 05 December 2004 14:47, Sally Caves wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > On Sunday 05 December 2004 13:40, Stephen Mulraney wrote:
> >> Mark J. Reed wrote:
> >>
> >> I understood John's statement to mean that there exist kinship systems
> >> where all kinship terms are reciprocal, rather then "there exist kinship
> >> systems where there exist terms that are reciprocal". I'm intruiged now
> >> as
> >> to whether that's what he meant. It wouldn't seem to fit into the
> >> Sudanese-Hawaiian- Eskimo-Iroquois-Omaha-Crow (SHEIOC? SHECIO? HESICO?
> >> SEHICO?) classification, but maybe it's more a feature of discourse,
> >> rather
> >> than of the underlying kinship system.
> >
> > I would like to see a kinship system in which all the terms are
> > reciprocal.
> > I've kinda wanted that for Kelen, but I'm not sure how it would work,
> > exactly. I can imagine a Kele�i person saying:
> > selne� anp�ra for 'we (paucal, exclusive (hence, dual)) are
> > mo-dau-relation'
> > But then, I think they also use animate nouns, like:
> > map�ra for 'mother, mother's-sister'.
> > mal�ca for 'daughter, girl, young woman'.
>
> I think John meant the latter: that there exist kinship systems where
> kinship terms are reciprocal but according to the nature of the
> relationship. Maybe I don't understand Stephen's distinctions. What I
> thought of immediately, as I began to imagine a Teonaht version of it, was
> that husband and wife would call each other "spouse," or some such term
> that had no gender distinction; that brother and sister would call each
> other "sibling" with no distinction in gender either; and even more
> delightfully weird, father and son, father and daughter, mother and son,
> mother and daughter, parents and children would call each other by a word
> that meant "parental-filial kinship relation." Let's call it bazzyt,
> /ba'zit/. "Vazzyt!" says the child to his parent. What is it, vazzyt? says
> the parent to the child. Of course if one wanted to address his father,
> one might say Vazzyt Hmyhhkal! (using the parent's first name). Same with
> any of the children. Same with aunt/uncle/niece/nephew, etc.
>
> How cool is that? :)
>
> And none of these terms could be applied to anybody else's family (in
> Teonaht). You would never say "how is your vazzyt?" That would be
> unconscionably rude, as Vazzyt is a name used very intimately. It would be
> like saying "how is your Fred?" when Fred refers to your father. You would
> use the outside word, Pantor.
>
> I don't know the Sudanese-Hawaiian-Eskimo-Iriquois-Omaha-Crow
> classification at all. But it's also possible to have everyone call each
> other
> "family-member," whether brother, sister, cousin, stepmother,
> father-in-law, nephew, etc. Was that what you had in mind, Stephen? And
> Sylvia, how would it not work in Kelen? Curious, and still trying to
> figure Kelen out...
>
Hi, Sally. It's not that it would not work in Kelen, it's that I am not
entirely happy with Kelen kinship terms. I would like them to be reciprocal.
But late at night when I'm half asleep and the characters in my head are
talking to each other, they tend to use plain old boring English-style
kinship terms and addresses even when i don't want them to. :-)
I guess I just have to get used to the idea of reciprocity in kinship.
Of course, I also want adoption or acquired kinship to be easy and
commonplace, and I don't want to have to use inalienable possession with
kinship terms, which is of course a very common usage in languages that have
inalienable vs alienable possessives.
Also, it's quite possible I missed something, as I'm not really reading this
thread (or any of them right now), I'm just skimming, and when something
fascinating comes up, I jump in and say something, even if it is a little out
of context. Sorry.
I like the idea of something vazzyt-like. I'll have to contemplate that for a
while, too.
-Sylvia
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K�len language info can be found at:
http://home.netcom.com/~sylvia1/Kelen/kelen.html
This post may contain the following:
� (a-acute) � (e-acute) � (i-acute)
� (o-acute) � (u-acute) � (n-tilde)
�e �arra anm�rienne c� �e reharra anm�rienne l�;
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:09:48 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: plural
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 13:50:31 -0500, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know that some languages (as english or esperanto) form the plural only on
> the
> nouns and leave the articles invariable and that others (as all italic ones,
> frensh, spanish...) leave a plural mark on the noun and the article.
>
> But is there an exemple of a language that represents plural only on the
> article?
I think at one point my conlang Ibran was such, but apparently I decided
against it, as the final s seems clearly to be retained, at least after
consonants:
e remijt-nos noistr diuts c�nt nosautrs anch noistr deutu�rs remetiux
E rE"m_jitnOs n9jhtr dZy:ts ko~t nO"zo:trs A~tS n9jhtr d2:twers rEmEtSy:h
and forgive-us our debts, how we also our debtors forgive
[Wondered about |nos|, but clearly its final |s| was reinforced by |nosautrs|].
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 00:38:59 +0000
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
Sally Caves wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>> On Sunday 05 December 2004 13:40, Stephen Mulraney wrote:
>>
>>> Mark J. Reed wrote:
>>>
>>> I understood John's statement to mean that there exist kinship systems
>>> where all kinship terms are reciprocal, rather then "there exist kinship
>>> systems where there exist terms that are reciprocal". I'm intruiged now
>>> as
>>> to whether that's what he meant. It wouldn't seem to fit into the
>>> Sudanese-Hawaiian- Eskimo-Iroquois-Omaha-Crow (SHEIOC? SHECIO? HESICO?
>>> SEHICO?) classification, but maybe it's more a feature of discourse,
>>> rather
>>> than of the underlying kinship system.
>>>
>
> I think John meant the latter: that there exist kinship systems where
> kinship terms are reciprocal but according to the nature of the
> relationship. Maybe I don't understand Stephen's distinctions. What I
> thought of immediately, as I began to imagine a Teonaht version of it, was
> that husband and wife would call each other "spouse," or some such term
> that
> had no gender distinction; that brother and sister would call each other
> "sibling" with no distinction in gender either; and even more delightfully
> weird, father and son, father and daughter, mother and son, mother and
> daughter, parents and children would call each other by a word that meant
> "parental-filial kinship relation." Let's call it bazzyt, /ba'zit/.
> "Vazzyt!" says the child to his parent. What is it, vazzyt? says the parent
> to the child. Of course if one wanted to address his father, one might say
> Vazzyt Hmyhhkal! (using the parent's first name). Same with any of the
> children. Same with aunt/uncle/niece/nephew, etc.
Yes, that's more or less what I meant. Actually the way I described it above
was a bit unrealistic (a language where _every_ kinship term could be used
reciprocally? Surely not!), but it was just after dinner and I'd had a bit
too much wine... John talked about langs in which "... you call your
<whatever> by the same word he or she calls you", Mark responded with the
example of English "cousin", but the situation in English (with reciprocal
"cousin" & "sibling", and maybe more) seemed to only marginally have this
feature. I was wondering if John was thinking of a language which had a
more thoroughgoing system of reciprocalness - exactly as you suggest :)
> How cool is that? :)
Very.
>
> And none of these terms could be applied to anybody else's family (in
> Teonaht). You would never say "how is your vazzyt?" That would be
> unconscionably rude, as Vazzyt is a name used very intimately. It would be
> like saying "how is your Fred?" when Fred refers to your father. You would
> use the outside word, Pantor.
>
> I don't know the Sudanese-Hawaiian-Eskimo-Iriquois-Omaha-Crow
> classification at all.
Ah, it's just the one that John linked to (and has been linked to before, by
IIRC Roger?...
http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/kinterms/termsys.html
A completely reciprocal system of kinship terms might not seem to fit into this
(apparantly universally applicable) system, but I suggested (clumsily) that it
might
be a feature of discourse - more or less what you described with your Teonaht
example -
Just because my Pantor & I call each other "Vazzyt", it doesn't mean that he
isn't
my Pantor, and I'm not his <Frobnitz>.
> But it's also possible to have everyone
> call each other "family-member," whether brother, sister, cousin,
> stepmother,
> father-in-law, nephew, etc.
A completely degenerate kinship terminology!
> Sally
s.
--
Stephen Mulraney [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Klein bottle for rent ... inquire within.
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:48:06 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Voices
--- "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Except that some languages have explicitly distinct
> reflexive and middle morphology, e.g. Meskwaki.
> Voices in general alter the valency of the verb
> (increasing or decreasing), while reflexives and
> middles are quite diverse in their transitivity.
Ahh. I was curious about the valency operations of the
German 'sich' expressions; many times, it didn't look
like that altered the valency very much at all:
'Er schleppte die Paketen den Berg hinauf'
he.ACT dragged the.parcels.PAT the.mountain upwards
'He dragged the parcels up the mountain.'
= bivalent
'Er schleppte sich den Berg hinauf.'
he.ACT dragged himself.PAT the.mountain upwards
'He dragged himself up the mountain.'
= still bivalent
Doesn't look like a voice to me.
--- "Steven Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > English has some constructions that look
> > suspiciously applicative
--- "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Could you give examples? English AFAIK doesn't have
> anything
> like the applicatives of Bantu or Algonquian
> languages.
You know, I thought about that and I couldn't come up
with anything that wasn't so construed as not to be
ridiculous. I thought about 'he undermined the wall'
as one, but that seems like an anomaly, since
constructions like that often have entirely different
lexical meanings; consider the difference between 'go'
(motion, intransitive) and 'undergo' (experience,
transitive).
I retract my statement, after a bit of thought on the
matter.
> Hundreds of Bantu languages have applicatives. In
> fact, it's one of the things they're famous for (in
> addition to their tonal phonology).
Do you know of any good reference material on the
Bantu languages? I've been extremely curious about them.
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 03:20:54 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: AEsir (was: OT, and religeous>
> I haven't seen the term "Ose". If we're talking about the Old Norse
> pantheon, then they're usually called just that - the Old Norse gods.
> Sometimes "Asgardian" is used, but I'm not aware of a non-Asgardian Old
> Norse pantheon
Loki - Jotun
Tyr - Jotun
Njorn/Niorn - Vanir
Freya - Vanir
Freyr - Vanir
how're they? *curious*
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:48:41 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: NATLANG: icelandic, finnish, english
I just have a couple of questions about Icelandic, Finnish and English.
How is <v> pronounced in Icelandic? I gather that <kv> is pronounced
[kw], but listening to an Icelandic band with it seems less than
brilliant clarity (Sigur R�s), some other cases of <v> seem to be [v],
some [w] and some silent. (I suppose I shouldn't complain too
much---some cases of English <w> are [v], some [w], others silent, and
some participate in digraphs. But on the other hand, all our <w>=[v] are
borrowings.)
Are Finnish unvoiced stops aspirated? Has its pronunciation been
influenced particularly under the influnce of Germanic languages and
Swedish in particular?
A lot of older English texts with otherwise apparently modern spelling
spell 'diverse' as 'divers'. When did the final -e become usual?
--
Tristan.
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 21:08:53 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language & clans? Re: OT: Ukraine
Stephen Mulraney scripsit:
> I understood John's statement to mean that there exist kinship systems
> where all kinship terms are reciprocal, rather then "there exist
> kinship systems where there exist terms that are reciprocal".
No, I meant the latter only. "Cousin" is an example, to be sure, but
I was thinking of cultures where grandfather and grandson use
reciprocal terms.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are
no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that
they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. --The Hobbit
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 21:09:20 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: AEsir (was: OT, and religeous>
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 03:20:54AM +0200, Rodlox wrote:
> > I haven't seen the term "Ose". If we're talking about the Old Norse
> > pantheon, then they're usually called just that - the Old Norse gods.
> > Sometimes "Asgardian" is used, but I'm not aware of a non-Asgardian Old
> > Norse pantheon
>
> Loki - Jotun
> Tyr - Jotun
> Njorn/Niorn - Vanir
> Freya - Vanir
> Freyr - Vanir
>
> how're they? *curious*
I believe you misunderstood. Further on in my message I acknowledged that there
were many god(desse)s and other folk in the Old Norse mythology who did
not actually live in Asgard; nevertheless, they are part of the same
pantheon, just as Hades is part of the Olympian pantheon despite not
living on Olympus.
What I meant was that i am unaware of any unrelated set of deities from
that time and place. Of course, Loki et al probably all started unrelated and
had their stories intertwined later, but from our standpoint looking
back they appear to be a coherent whole,
-Marcos
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:14:38 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NATLANG: icelandic, finnish, english
--- Tristan Mc Leay-h <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
id�-i:
> How is <v> pronounced in Icelandic? I gather that
> <kv> is pronounced [kw], but listening to an
> Icelandic band with it seems less than brilliant
> clarity (Sigur R�s), some other cases of <v> seem to
> be [v], some [w] and some silent.
This might help, though it may not be entirely
accurate, since the compiler of the site is not a
native speaker of Icelandic (to my knowledge):
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/icelandic.htm
I'm pretty inclined to believe that the diagraph <kv>
is pronounced as [kw] or [kf] myself, having listened
to my fair share of Bj�rk, whose idiolect of Icelandic
(and English, for that matter) sounds something like
this:
[a::::::::::_X_R]
:)
> (I suppose I shouldn't complain too much---some
> cases of English <w> are [v], some [w], others
> silent, and some participate in digraphs. But on the
> other hand, all our <w>=[v] are borrowings.)
And none are in common usage. The only terms I can
think of are /Wehrmacht/ and /Luftwaffe/, both of
which are commonly pronounced with the /w/ as [w],
though it is pretty common among the educated or those
who know better to pronounce the /w/ correctly, as
[v].
My music professor, her teaching assistant and the
DJ's at the local classical station all pronounce the
name of the composer /Wagner/ as [vag.nr\], which is
becoming more and more common these days, in my
experience, for reasons I cannot quite fathom (but
appreciate anyways)--it's not like people are surging
to learn German or classical music appreciation these
days...
Now, if only we could get /Tchaikovsky/ right...
> Are Finnish unvoiced stops aspirated? Has its
> pronunciation been influenced particularly under the
> influnce of Germanic languages and Swedish in
> particular?
They sound unaspirated to me; but then again, I still
find it pretty hard to tell between aspirated and
unaspirated consonants without all those handy English
secondary pronunciation features to help me out.
> A lot of older English texts with otherwise
> apparently modern spelling spell 'diverse'
> as 'divers'. When did the final -e become usual?
I think it's still spelled as /divers/ in British
English. /diverse/ has pretty much always been the
American standard.
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:33:10 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Schpamm?!
Jeffrey Henning scripsit:
> Oh Master of Instrumentality, is there no way to set the archives to
> partially mask e-mail addresses? I like the Yahoo Groups approach, which
> would present the above address as "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".
Alas, I don't know of any such way.
--
You are a child of the universe no less John Cowan
than the trees and all other acyclic http://www.reutershealth.com
graphs; you have a right to be here. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
--DeXiderata by Sean McGrath [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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