------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Preliminary Sketch
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. html advice (drat!)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: html advice (drat!)
From: azathoth500 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. a rough sketch of Kur
From: azathoth500 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. OT: Re: Re: The Need for Debate
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. nomothete
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. most looked-up words
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: German style orthography
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: nomothete
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: most looked-up words
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: most looked-up words
From: Mark Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: most looked-up words
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: German style orthography
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: nomothete
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: nomothete
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: OT: Re: Re: The Need for Debate
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: most looked-up words
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: most looked-up words
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:16:42 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Preliminary Sketch
This afternoon, during a slightly slack period at work, I jotted down some
notes of a language unlike my previous projects.
Here are my notes in full. Any thoughts, questions or suggestions?
br /B\/
dr /r/
gr /R\/
w
v
b
p
g
k
tj /c_+C_+)/
ch /tS)/
s
sh /S/
d
t
ng /N/
n
m
i /I/
ee /i/
u /V/
oo /u/
' /@/
ar /A/
e
o
a
or /O/
(uh /V/ , u /U/ , ur /2/)?
(ai /E/)?
Verbs of motion supplete for path instead of manner, with adverbs for
manner.
e.g. br'gar "go along", ngana "go toward", shoo ngana "walk towards",
drork ngana "stealthily approach", drork chovbr'gar "sleathily traverse a
beach".
Language is modifier-head, with some fusional agglutinative elements, and
prefixing incorporation of primary(?) objects. Check the definition of
dechticaetiative.
i u
I U
e 2 @ o
E V O
a A
Vowel harmony?
(i I e a @) vs (a A V O @) vs (u o V O @)
It's a possibility. It's kinda hard to do uniform mappings. Maybe they're
just irregular, and that's that?.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:20:52 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
[This message is not in displayable format]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:37:30 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon) wrote:
> Tristan McLeay wrote:
>
>> In that context for me [EMAIL PROTECTED] (no matter its origin) is
>> forbidden, and I'd
>> say [Ia)]; using a [EMAIL PROTECTED] makes it sound like you're beginning to
>> say /Ie)/
>> to me and I'm forever suprised you never actually make it to the [e],
>
> I am not aware of any dialect of Australian English with a /Ie/
> diphthong!
I'm not aware of any fullstop, but that's what [EMAIL PROTECTED] sounds like
it's
trying to become to me in that context! [EMAIL PROTECTED] is totally and
utterly,
irrevocably and with no course for appeal banned from that position; /@/
there is pronounced [a] (or perhaps, /@/ there is pronounced the same
way /a/ is pronounced normally). (This is not something new---people who
say [el] for the name of the letter L* don't have [EMAIL PROTECTED] here, in
Melbourne---and it has a number of odd effects elsewhere, like seeing as
[a] is a short non-schwa vowel, there are times it might need to get
more stress than it usually does, and this applies just as much when
it's /@/ as when it's /a/.)
* In Melbourne amongst younger people, under 30ish, /el/ is pronounced
[&l], so 'salary' and 'celery' are homophones. Usually though earlier
/el/ and /&l/ are still distinct because /&/+[5]->[&:5], but /e/+/l/ ->
[&l]~[&5].
>> Your 'steam' seems to be a monophthong, or at least not diphthongal
>> enough, but I'm not sure if I put that down to recital mode or Adelaide.
>
> I am not aware of any dialect of Australian English in which 'steam'
> has a diphthong! It's always /sti:m/ as far as I know.
/sti:m/, perhaps, though my sometimes inability to distinguish between
[i] and [I] without a context suggests otherwise, but certainly not
[sti:m] for the most part. And this isn't perculiar to Australian
English either, it's kin in England often have a diphthong. It's
something like [Ii] or [EMAIL PROTECTED], with the second element being
dominant.
>> Also, I dunno about you, but I have a noticeably phonetically
>> different pronunciation of the vowel in 'stone' and 'pole' and I
>> think there's a
>
>
> Yes. It's a regular modification before [5]. What's interesting is
> that for some speakers the same modification occurs in words where the
> /l/ constitutes a syllable boundary such as "cola", "holy", "polio",
> etc, whereas for other speakers it doesn't. I'm in the second
> category, i.e. "holy" is like "goatee" and not like "oldie". I think
> it's because for me /l/ in that position does not become [5] (because
> it is at the beginning of the second syllable, not the end of the
> first) whereas for many other speakers it does.
I think of 'holy' etc. with the 'goatee' vowel being a thing of posh
old-fashioned British women (or perhaps posh old-fashioned Australian
women pretending to be British). I didn't realise it was current amongst
any dialects... Very definitely the 'oldie' vowel for me. On a related
note, do you distinguish between 'poll' and 'pole' and similar?
>> I'd be interested to hear a bunch of /U@/ words, like 'pure',
>> 'purest', 'tour', 'tourist'. Though the difference seems slight in
>> the first of
>> each pair for me, it's much more noticeable in the second, probably
>> because the vowels last for longer.
>
>
> I will make another recording based on your requests sometime. But
> there is no such diphthong as /U@/ in my dialect.
Well, I meant words that are often marked in dictionaries as having /U@/
:) I think I've only got the diphthong in 'tour', not any other words...
Funny that it should've been immune to two sound changes trying to get
rid of it (normally [EMAIL PROTECTED] -> /o:/ unless it had a /j/ before it, but
'tour' was immune for odd reasons, then [EMAIL PROTECTED] became
non-diphthongal and
_still_ 'tour' stayed put! I'll blame the French---they gave the word to
us).
> > I'll give you a recording of mine sometime soon too if you want.
>
> I'm certainly interested, but do you not have the space to put them
> online for the facilitation of discussion?
That's what I meant :)
> I've standardised on 96kbps as the resolution for all my mp3 files.
> It's an adequate resolution for all home use purposes (including music)
> while also resulting in respectably compact file sizes.
I've found 96 kbps MP3s to be too tiny with all but mid-quality speakers
for music---most of what I rip is roughly 192 kbps Ogg Vorbis files,
mostly because that's my software's default. But I spose that's a
different issue altogether.
>> (You also seem to have gone about looking for syllables starting in
>> st-, any particular reason? I would've thought you'd try to
>> homogenise the
>> codas, not the onsets, considering most allophonic variation in AuE is
>> condition based on the ending.)
>
>
> Some introspection convinced me that 'st' was a good onset for
> mimimising glides.
Really? What kind of glides were you finding?
> But I didn't want to make the words too regular
> in case it resulted in a tongue-twister effect, so I allowed the codas
> to vary. Having said which, I used dental codas wherever possible.
But still you get artifacts there, voiced elements lengthen diphthongs
(incl. /i:/) and /&/ and nasal elements cause nasalisation of a number
of vowels... I think a row of the IPA chart would've been a better thing
to standardise on than a column.
--
Tristan.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:58:48 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
# 1 wrote:
> >Adrian Morgan wrote:
>
> >Wordlist:
>
> >soy; stone; stifle; stout; stay; stare; steer; soon; stool (allophone);
> >stood; storm; stall (allophone); stop; star; stun; stern; steam; stint;
> >extend; stand.
>
> Sorry, but for me, your pronounciation isn't very good. You know I've
> got a website with someone who tells all the phonetics sounds! And he
> does it very well.
>
Well, it's perfect English. (albeit quite Australian ;-) )
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:17:10 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
I see we have YAAEPT on our hands (Yet Another Australian...) :)
But I'll jump in even though I'm a Leftpondian because I have some
quesations:
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 09:37:30AM +1100, Tristan Mc Leay wrote:
> >Yes. It's a regular modification before [5].
[5]? Oh, wait, there it is - buried in a note in the diacritics
section of the CXS chart. Tsk. :)
> I think of 'holy' etc. with the 'goatee' vowel being a thing of posh
> old-fashioned British women (or perhaps posh old-fashioned Australian
> women pretending to be British). I didn't realise it was current amongst
> any dialects...
Hm. What is the alternative to "the 'goatee' vowel" in "holy"?
> Very definitely the 'oldie' vowel for me. On a related
Ah! Well, IMD those are not quite the same vowel, but darn close.
Before [5], the [o] is lowered and the trailing [w]-glide is lost,
so |holy| = |wholly| and |oldie| both have something like [o_o5],
whereas |goatee| has [oU_^t].
> do you distinguish between 'poll' and 'pole' and similar?
(These are identical for me)
> >>I'd be interested to hear a bunch of /U@/ words, like 'pure',
> >>'purest', 'tour', 'tourist'.
Distinct vowels for me. The "pure*" words have [r\=], while the
"tour*" words have [uwr\=].
> Well, I meant words that are often marked in dictionaries as having /U@/
> :)
I find that diphthong very odd. It's certainly not what comes out when
I try to de-rhoticize my own pronunciation. :)
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:28:40 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: html advice (drat!)
Would someone please take a look at
http://cinduworld.tripod.com/supplement.htm
Under the entry "la�-la�" (no doubt of interest per se), I successfully got
the velar nasal to appear, but the glottal stop (near the end of the entry)
doesn't show up on my browser (which uses Times New Roman I guess, which
doesn't have a ? character, no doubt the problem). What must I do to have
it show up correctly?) You'll note, I have specified UTF-8 in the heading.
Must I specify a font or font-family?? (If so, I'd prefer something like
Times New Roman if possible-- i.e with serifs).
Thanks in advance.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:42:10 -0500
From: azathoth500 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: html advice (drat!)
I can see the glottal stop. Must be something on your end.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:40:48 -0500
From: azathoth500 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: a rough sketch of Kur
Lately I've been working on a family of languages related to my other
two conlangs, Igur (http://z500.8m.net/conlangs/igur/index.html) and
Noth. This family, which I've named Nazya, is tonal, unlike the Teq
family (both developed from a protolanguage with monosyllabic roots).
The first language in the Nazya family is Zat. This grammar is for its
immediate descendent, Kur. The high tone is marked by an acute accent,
the low tone by a grave accent, and nasalized vowels by a tilde. "y"
is pronounced /i\/, and "j" is pronounced /j/. This grammar also has
some unicode for Y-grave and A-acute-tilde (high tone nasal A). Sorry
if the tables I made are messed up. I made them in notepad with tabs.
word order: VOS
The Nazya branch split off early, before the development of noun
classes. It also retained the regular first and second person
pronouns, while the Teq branch used the demonstrative pronouns. It
also developed tones and some consonant clusters.
pronouns
nom acc dat gen loc abl ins ill trm
I h� h�k h�n h� h�d g� am sw� h�d
you h�t h�sk haz has had ga b�t sw�t h�d
this zi zik zin ziya z�d z�g zim adzi zo
that sli slik slin sliya sl�d sl�g sl�d asli slo
that ti tik tin sa s�d t�g mi asti tos
-----
These dzu zu zem iz zo oz zum zem zi
Those slim slu slum sle sti slog smu sem si
verbs
infinitive: wu + stem + y
stative: Je + stem
aorist: Hi + stem w/ ablauted vowel (i > e > a, u > o > a)
wukeky "to taste" > hikak- "tasted"
Note: Aorist is an aspect and does not denote the passage of time,
only the completion of an action
participle: stem + juk (following vowel) or suk (following consonant):
wukeky "to taste" > keksuk "tasted"
applicative: ku(common patient)/ki(neuter patient) + conjugated verb
wuz�bl`yy "to sleep" z�s "on" z�pl`yk "bed, mat"
z�bl`yzu z�pl`ykid z�s h� sleep-1st bed-LOC on I
kiz�bl`yzu z�pl`ykuk h� z�s APP-sleep-1st bed-ACC I on
must: uk + nonpast
(yes, the stative and applicative forms are inspired by recent
conversations on the list. I thought they'd make for relatively exotic
forms compared to Igur and Noth)
irregular verbs (more to come)
Wusay "to be"
non-past
h� wã́ dzu tets�
h�t w�t slim tets�sly
zi ts�k
sli ts�s
ti ts�s
regular verbs
Wuh�ty "to see"
non-past
h� g�-h�t dzu h�t-iz
h�t h�t-t� slim h�t-id
sli di-h�t
ti h�t-tu
zi h�t-za
nouns
2 genders, arbitrarily named common and neuter
back vowel roots: common
front vowel roots: neuter
neuter
singular plural
nominative m(a)- -u
accusative -uk -uwa
dative -un -ud
genitive -ja -dzu
locative -id -zu
ablative -ga -og
instrumental -mem -wa
illative -z -ed
terminative -uz -oi
common
singular plural
nominative -an -om
accusative -ak -u
dative -en -em
genitive -ja -es
locative -id -zi
ablative -ga -og
instrumental -m -mu
illative -sm -sem
terminative -od -oi
some cases have weak forms with related functions:
weak nominative -> predicate nominative
weak genitive -> appositive
Weak declensions are formed by a voicing of the initial consonant, or
prefixing with h- and nasalizing the first vowel if it begins with a
vowel.
Some example sentences, with equivalents in Igur and Noth:
Tell my brother Sila, that he must find the pot
Kur: Z�t� Silun dhiblyja h�, ukz�tu geblyuk.
Igur: Z�git Nusilni, goi gy�va dhi ifky�zl cuk.
Noth: Zigit Silnan dhyoidkno, makyoidit dos dho dwi gyoidka.
My name is Sila.
Kur: Ts�k blathan h� Zilan.
Igur: Suvath sic Nusila tai.
Noth: V�thso shis Silna tan.
Don't go to that room.
Kur: Hũ̀ deslyt� tukod ti.
Igur: Daky�gli li gu ivit.
Noth: Do ivit kyoidal ti.
Some cognates (all listed in nominative case):
Hũ̀, with Igur "gu" and Noth "do"
Blath-an, with Igur "su-vath" and Noth "v�th-so"
Ma-dhibly, with Igur "nu-dhy�v" and Noth "dhyoid-no"
Ma-gebly, with Igur "gy�v" and Noth "gyoid-wa"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 00:01:30 -0000
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Re: Re: The Need for Debate
John Cowan:
> It's not up to the offender to decide what is and what is not offensive,
> unfortunately. Only the offended can forgive.
It's not really up to the offendee, either, to decide what is and
what is not offensive, if offensiveness is characterized by
reprehensibleness rather than merely the fact of someone having been
caused to feel offended. We all have a right to be treated kindly and
with consideration, and an obligation to treat others thus, but we
don't have a right to not be caused to feel offended. Hence if
someone causes us to feel offended, we cannot necessarily accuse
them of having culpably injured us. A failure to share this point
of view seems to underlie the ire of most flame exchanges.
(Although I have often caused offence (always unintentionally
but not always inadvertently), I cannot for the life of me
remember ever having been caused to feel offended [-- by way
of an experiment, anybody is welcome to try, by private email,
to deflower me of this particular virginity], and given that I
frequently encounter views that appal and disgust me, this
surely is an efficacious ingredient for a life that much the
happier and less wroth.)
--And.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:13:07 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: nomothete
Can "nomothete" or "Nomothete" mean "name-giver" as well as "lawgiver"?
Umberto Eco seems to use this term with the latter sense:
"...'out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and
every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call
them'. The interpretation of the passage is an extremely delicate matter.
Clearly we are in the presence of a motif, common to other religions and
mythologies -- that of the nomothete, the name-giver, the creator of
language."
Search for the Perfect Language, p. 8.
Is Eco using the word incorrectly? I've always understood this to mean
nomos + theticos. Is there any context outside of Eco's use of it here
where this word means giving the name?
No reference or challenge in this posting to any kind of theology whatsover.
:)
Thanks,
Sally
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:07 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
This time, I've take the reverse approach. I've first created a phonology
and then made a language around it.
The special about this phonology is that it has no plosives :D
There are some other nifty features, like VSO syntax (which is pretty rare),
and the tenses are indicated by particles which are appended to the subject.
Is there any language that actually does this?
Anyway, the homepage is here:
http://www.choton.org/sk/
Here's the background info I came up with, right from the history page:
http://www.choton.org/sk/history.html
Sk�lansk is the language of the people inhabiting Sk�lann, which equals to
the islands Sjaelland, Lolland, Holster and M�n in Denmark in our world.
Back in the time of the big migrations, these islands were conquered by
Germanic tribes, who then settled down there. During the following time,
they were greatly influenced by the neighbouring countries. In the late
middle ages, a movement for more individuality and independece started,
which eventually, in the late middle ages, resulted in the decision to
create a language for themselves, which should be clearly distinct from that
of the surrounding countries, as a means to express their individuality.
After thorough research of the most versed scholars, this project was
eventually realized with some distinct and unique features:
* It was decided to put the verb at the beginning, followed by subject
and object, since this structure was not found in any other known languages.
* Verb conjugation was eliminated, making verbs immutable. Instead,
particles indicating time and modality would be placed after the subject.
Later, these particles were appended to the subject, but apostrophes were
inserted inbetween.
* Articles were abandoned.
* Many words were traced back to their roots as they could be
determined, which were often of Old Norse origin.
* After some heated debates, the Latin alphabet found the most support.
Other alternatives considered included Norse runes, Gothic alphabet, Greece
alphabet and even Mongolic script.
* Sound changes which had already happened in part were regularized:
Sound changes (no guarantee for completeness)
* p -> ph /f/ -> f
* b -> w /v/ (made intentionally to match the p change)
* t -> th /T/ -> s
* d -> th /D/ -> th /T/ -> s
* k: split into two groups
o k /k/ -> k /x/ (majority)
o k /k/ -> c /c/ -> c /C/
* g /g/ -> g /G/ -> g /xR/ -> /xR/ only before vowel, /x/ otherwise
* sk: always /sk/ -> always /sx/ -> /S/ if initial -> /x/ in /sx/ at end
of word was eventually dropped
Here's the Babel text:
http://www.choton.org/sk/babel.html
1 Nu hefjan al jormungrunnr'a ein reors mes glik worsan.
2 Reisan sei'in osr, finsan mannan'a grunnr in Skinar en sesjan sei'a sasra.
3 Segjan sei'a to sic: "Koman jus'at! Makan wi'at skalja en brinnan es
grunnisk!" Njotan sei'a skalja ses fjall en sjara ses klajja.
4 Sa segjan sei'a: "Koman jus'at! Wawan wi'at skasr fir wi mes wurc upp to
himinn, so s�s unfarsfrengan an'wi'or uwa al ersa."
5 Ak koman Hasem'a nisar to sjan skasr en wurc esan wawan mannan'a.
6 Segjan Hasem'a: "Ef kwesan as ein folk ein reors hafjan weginan sujan
sei'a sis, flanan tujan an'nics'or sei esan anmoglisk fir sei.
7 Koman jus'at! Sk�wan wi'at nisar en farwerran seias reors, so s�s
anskinjan sei'or sic.
8 So farsfrengan Hasem'a sei uwa al ersa, en wilan wawan sei'a skasr.
9 Sarum esan namjan skasr'a Wawel, wansa sasra farwerran Haskem'a reors af
al jormungrunnr; hinano farsfrengran Hasem'a sei uwa al ersa.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of Choton
official Choton homepage:
http://www.choton.org
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 00:22:36 -0000
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: most looked-up words
http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/04words.htm
lists the top 10 words most looked up in the online dictionary
(excluding hard-to-spell words like _accommodate_ and words
whose tabooness imparts a frisson to their looking up).
1. blog
2. incumbent
3. electoral
4. insurgent
5. hurricane
6. cicada
7. peloton : noun (1951) : the main body of riders in a bicycle race
8. partisan
9. sovereignty
10. defenestration
For most of the entries it's easy to see why they're on the list,
but _cicada_, _peloton_ (a word wholly new to me) and
_defenestration_ perplex me. Perhaps in my habitual failure to
heed the News, I have missed major stories on these topics?
At any rate, I will wager that no conlang has words for all 10.
My conlang has no word for any of the 10. But one supersized
all-American kudo to the conlang with the words for the most
of the 10...
--And.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:29:44 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 19:15:53 -0800, bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I am making a language supposedly discovered in the
>late 1800's by Germans on an island south of the
>island Mafia on the coast of Tanzania. It includes
>"whistlized" consonants, where labialization was taken
>to such a degree that the w-sound is now a whistle, a
>voiced whistle in the case of a voiced "whistlized"
>consonant.
A German style orthography would look like this:
The phonemes are:
(plosives)
/p/ p
/b/ b
/t/ t
/d/ d
/k/ k
/g/ g
/q/ q
(nasals)
/m/ m
/n/ n
/N/ ng
(fricatives)
/P/ f
/B/ w
/T/ th
/D/ dh
/s/ s
/s_m/ �
/z/ s (no distinction from /s/ made in spelling)
/z_m/ �
/C/ ch
/j\/ jh
/x/ ch (no distinction from /C/ made in spelling)
/X/ qh
/h/ h
(laterals)
/l/ l
/L/ ll
(approximate)
/j/ j
(rhotic)
/rR\)/ r (This is a simultaneous r and R\... it is fun to pronounce.)
(affricatives)
/tT)/ tth
/dD)/ tdh
/ts)/ z
/dz)/ ds
/tC)/ tch
/dj\)/ djh
/kx)/ kch
/qX)/ qqh
("whistlized")
/s_m_W/ �� (_W represents "whistlization")
/z_m_W/ ��
/C_W/ ch�
/j\_W/ jh�
/x_W/ ch�
/t_W/ t�
/d_W/ d�
/k_W/ k�
/g_W/ g�
Vowels are:
/i/ i
/I/ i (before double consonant or end of word)
/e/ e
/&/ �
/@/ e (before double consonant or end of word)
/u/ u
/O/ o
/A/ a
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of Choton
official Choton homepage:
http://www.choton.org
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:34:37 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
Mark J. Reed wrote:
>I see we have YAAEPT on our hands (Yet Another Australian...) :)
>But I'll jump in even though I'm a Leftpondian because I have some
>quesations:
>
>
Oh, you've started putting the South Pole at the top of your maps, too? :)
>On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 09:37:30AM +1100, Tristan Mc Leay wrote [quoting
>Adrian!]:
>
>
>>>Yes. It's a regular modification before [5].
>>>
>>>
>
>[5]? Oh, wait, there it is - buried in a note in the diacritics
>section of the CXS chart. Tsk. :)
>
>
Blame someone else---it isn't my fault!
>>I think of 'holy' etc. with the 'goatee' vowel being a thing of posh
>>old-fashioned British women (or perhaps posh old-fashioned Australian
>>women pretending to be British). I didn't realise it was current amongst
>>any dialects...
>>
>>
>
>Hm. What is the alternative to "the 'goatee' vowel" in "holy"?
>
>
>
>> Very definitely the 'oldie' vowel for me. On a related
>>
>>
>
>Ah! Well, IMD those are not quite the same vowel, but darn close.
>Before [5], the [o] is lowered and the trailing [w]-glide is lost,
>so |holy| = |wholly| and |oldie| both have something like [o_o5],
>whereas |goatee| has [oU_^t].
>
>
Yeah... I have something like [Vu\] vs [Ou]. I'm more confident about
the IPAfication of the second than the first though. The first is meant
to be roughly what Adrian uses there...
Incidentally, sometimes 'holy' is pronounced 'holly' (i.e. /hOli/),
othertimes 'wholly' (i.e. /hOuli/). I have no idea when it chooses which.
>>>>I'd be interested to hear a bunch of /U@/ words, like 'pure',
>>>>'purest', 'tour', 'tourist'.
>>>>
>>>>
>
>Distinct vowels for me. The "pure*" words have [r\=], while the
>"tour*" words have [uwr\=].
>
>
Hm... Those French certainly have something to answer for!
>>Well, I meant words that are often marked in dictionaries as having /U@/
>>:)
>>
>>
>
>I find that diphthong very odd. It's certainly not what comes out when
>I try to de-rhoticize my own pronunciation. :)
>
>
Yairr, well if I tried to rhutticise my pronunciation, it'd be orrl
wrung too :)
--
Tristan.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 00:34:40 -0000
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: nomothete
Sally:
> Can "nomothete" or "Nomothete" mean "name-giver" as well as "lawgiver"?
> Umberto Eco seems to use this term with the latter sense:
>
> "...'out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and
> every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would
call
> them'. The interpretation of the passage is an extremely delicate matter.
> Clearly we are in the presence of a motif, common to other religions and
> mythologies -- that of the nomothete, the name-giver, the creator of
> language."
>
> Search for the Perfect Language, p. 8.
>
> Is Eco using the word incorrectly? I've always understood this to mean
> nomos + theticos. Is there any context outside of Eco's use of it here
> where this word means giving the name?
Not as far as I know. Is there some kind of abstruse pun going on,
between nomothete and onomatothete? Are these words for "law" and "name"
cognate? And are Latin lex/legis (law) and Gk lexis/legein (words,
speech, speak) [forgive me if in my haste my inflections err ...]
cognate?
--And.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:38:54 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
And Rosta wrote:
>http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/04words.htm
>
>lists the top 10 words most looked up in the online dictionary
>(excluding hard-to-spell words like _accommodate_ and words
>whose tabooness imparts a frisson to their looking up).
>
>1. blog
>2. incumbent
>3. electoral
>4. insurgent
>5. hurricane
>6. cicada
>7. peloton : noun (1951) : the main body of riders in a bicycle race
>8. partisan
>9. sovereignty
>10. defenestration
>
>For most of the entries it's easy to see why they're on the list,
>but _cicada_, _peloton_ (a word wholly new to me) and
>_defenestration_ perplex me. Perhaps in my habitual failure to
>heed the News, I have missed major stories on these topics?
>
>
I imagination 'defenestration' found it's way because it's such a cool
word, who else would've thought there'd be a word for throwing things
out of windows?
>At any rate, I will wager that no conlang has words for all 10.
>My conlang has no word for any of the 10. But one supersized
>all-American kudo to the conlang with the words for the most
>of the 10...
>
>
Also, ten points to anyone who can tell me what a 'kudo' is. (I have
none I don't think---but I'm currently cleaning up my bedroom to find my
F�tisk notebook and I might have a word for 'sovereignty' (or a very
simple & productive way of getting to it from 'king').)
--
Tristan.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:01:22 -0500
From: Mark Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:38:54 +1100, Tristan Mc Leay
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Also, ten points to anyone who can tell me what a 'kudo' is.
A back-formation from interpreted-as-plural "kudos"(*), which is a
Greek borrowing denoting awards or honor. "kudos to X" has become a
set phrase meaning more or less "X should be congratulated".
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=kudo
(*) Similarly, the sandwich formed by wrapping up a mostly-lamb meat
mixture in a pita is pretty universally referred to as "a gyro"
/'ji.ro/ in the US, despite the singularity of the source "gyros".
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:32:19 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
[This message is not in displayable format]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:16:55 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
Mark Reed scripsit:
> (*) Similarly, the sandwich formed by wrapping up a mostly-lamb meat
> mixture in a pita is pretty universally referred to as "a gyro"
> /'ji.ro/ in the US, despite the singularity of the source "gyros".
I more often hear /'dzairo/, as if it were the word "gyro" = "gyroscope".
As for cicadas, they are usually in the news somewhere in the U.S.
every summer, since each particular brood only emerges every 17 or 13
years.
--
I am expressing my opinion. When my John Cowan
honorable and gallant friend is called, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
he will express his opinion. This is http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the process which we call Debate. --Winston Churchill
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:30:32 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
--- Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 19:53:15 -0800, bob thornton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > This is the mail as I received it, excepting my
> own
> > frippery. Please do tell me what the doodlyjiggers
> are
> > that weren't shown.
>
> Apparently, his email was in UTF-8 but it was marked
> as iso-8859-1
> instead. Here's an attempt to send it legibly -- I
> presume Gmail will
> make UTF-8 out of it, and I hope the list won't
> mangle it too badly.
> (Though it may decide to use MIME encoding, either
> QP or Base-64,
> rather than 8-bit.)
>
> [begin quote]
>
> Here's my try for a German-style orthography of the
> language Tüësë:
>
> (plosives)
> /p/ p
> /b/ b
> /t/ t
> /d/ d
> /k/ k
> /g/ g
> /q/ q
> (nasals)
> /m/ m
> /n/ n
> /N/ ng
> (fricatives)
> /P/ f
> /B/ w
> /T/ þ
> /D/ đ
> /s/ s
> /s_m/ sh
> /z/ ſ
> /z_m/ ſh
> /C/ ch
> /j\/ jh
> /x/ χ
> /X/ ħ
> /h/ h
> (laterals)
> /l/ l
> /L/ ł
> (approximate)
> /j/ j
> (rhotic)
> /rR\)/ (This is a simultaneous r and R\... it is fun
> to pronounce.) r
> (affricatives)
> /tT)/ tþ
> /dD)/ dđ
> /ts)/ z
> /dz)/ ds
> /tC)/ tch
> /dj\)/ dj
> /kx)/ kχ
> /qX)/ qħ
> ("whistlized")
> /s_m_W/ (_W represents "whistlization") schü
> /z_m_W/ shü
> /C_W/ chü
> /j\_W/ jü
> /x_W/ chü
> /t_W/ tü
> /d_W/ dü
> /k_W/ kü
> /g_W/ gü
>
> Vowels are:
>
> /i/ ie
> /I/ i
> /e/ e
> /&/ ä
> /@/ ë
> /u/ u
> /O/ o
> /A/ a
>
> […]
>
> The suggestions I posted for the whistled consonants
> are mistaken. The
> following are consistent:
>
> /z_m_W/ ſhü
> /x_W/ χü
>
I am still not getting the symbols. Could the sender
please just list what they are, such as "a-acute" or whatnot?
=====
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:29:57 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: nomothete
----- Original Message -----
From: "And Rosta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sally:
>> Can "nomothete" or "Nomothete" mean "name-giver" as well as "lawgiver"?
>> Umberto Eco seems to use this term with the latter sense:
>>
>> "...'out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and
>> every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would
> call
>> them'. The interpretation of the passage is an extremely delicate
>> matter.
>> Clearly we are in the presence of a motif, common to other religions and
>> mythologies -- that of the nomothete, the name-giver, the creator of
>> language."
>>
>> Search for the Perfect Language, p. 8.
>>
>> Is Eco using the word incorrectly? I've always understood this to mean
>> nomos + theticos. Is there any context outside of Eco's use of it here
>> where this word means giving the name?
>
> Not as far as I know. Is there some kind of abstruse pun going on,
> between nomothete and onomatothete? Are these words for "law" and "name"
> cognate? And are Latin lex/legis (law) and Gk lexis/legein (words,
> speech, speak) [forgive me if in my haste my inflections err ...]
> cognate?
My questions exactly. Is onomatothete an actual word? Or onomathete? Is
he confusing nomos with onoma?
**********
Who has heard of a Nomothete in the context Eco uses here? Moses and the
ten commandments? Aslan in _The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe_ (when he
sings creation into being?)
**********
I can't imagine Eco making this kind of mistake (is there an Italian version
of the word?), and here I was quoting him, and thinking that we had another
word for glossopoeist, perhaps some kind of divine name-giver, but I was
thrown into doubt by all the dictionary definitions of this word when I
checked. If Eco screwed up here, I've lost a GREAT paragraph.
-nomy, however, means not just a system of laws governing a specific field,
but also a body of knowledge concerning a specific field. Nomos < *nem:
"assign, allot, take; Greek nemein, "to allot." O-grade form *nom, yielding
Greek nomos: portion, usage, custom, law, division, district.
Then what is -thete? "placer?" "doer"? from Greek tithenai, "to put"? The
IE dictionary gives reduplicative *dhi-dhe as the origin of this suffix in
such words as metathesis, synthesis, prosthesis, anathema, etc. Putting or
placing things into a district or a usage?
******
So what Adam is doing is actually apportioning the animals? Placing animals
into categories? (I'm hopeful of this last). Giving laws to language and
names (even more hopeful)? Eco seems to use the word to mean Adam's naming
the animals.
*******
I return to And's question: logos seems to mean in Greek both "law" and
"word." Could nomos, too? Did Eco mean logothete? I looked that up, and
unfortunately it meant a petty accountant.
The IE root for L. lex ("law") is also the root for Gr. logos: *leg: "to
collect; with derivatives meaning to speak." Could the same thing have been
going on with nomos/onoma?
Sally
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 03:34:04 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: nomothete
And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Is there some kind of abstruse pun going on, between nomothete and
>onomatothete? Are these words for "law" and "name" cognate? And are
>Latin lex/legis (law) and Gk lexis/legein (words, speech, speak)
[forgive me if in my haste my inflections err ...] cognate?
PIE root nem- (to assign, allot, take) > O-grade form *nom-, in Greek
nomos (law), giving English words, e.g., antinomy, astronomy,
binomial, et al.
PIE root nomen (nomn, onomn) (name) > Greek onoma (name), giving
English words, e.g., onomatopeia, anonymous, et al.
These two are, thus, not cognate.
PIE root leg- (to collect, with derivatives meaning to speak) > in
Greek legein (to gather, speak), giving English words, e.g.,
dyslexia, dialect, et al.
lengthened grade form le-g > possibly in Latin lex (law), giving
English words, e.g., legal, et al.
These two are cognate.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:38:32 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Re: The Need for Debate
And Rosta scripsit:
> It's not really up to the offendee, either, to decide what is and
> what is not offensive, if offensiveness is characterized by
> reprehensibleness rather than merely the fact of someone having been
> caused to feel offended. We all have a right to be treated kindly and
> with consideration, and an obligation to treat others thus, but we
> don't have a right to not be caused to feel offended. Hence if
> someone causes us to feel offended, we cannot necessarily accuse
> them of having culpably injured us. A failure to share this point
> of view seems to underlie the ire of most flame exchanges.
Both Chris and I excluded culpability due to intentional offending,
the kind Quentin Crisp never apologized for.
> (Although I have often caused offence (always unintentionally
> but not always inadvertently),
What is the distinction in this case?
--
What is the sound of Perl? Is it not the John Cowan
sound of a [Ww]all that people have stopped [EMAIL PROTECTED]
banging their head against? --Larry http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:41:36 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
Tristan Mc Leay scripsit:
> I imagination 'defenestration' found it's way because it's such a cool
> word, who else would've thought there'd be a word for throwing things
> out of windows?
It also has an additional sense nowadays, not yet recognized by general
dictionaries: "to remove Windows from a computer and replace it with
a libre operating system."
--
John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com
"If he has seen farther than others,
it is because he is standing on a stack of dwarves."
--Mike Champion, describing Tim Berners-Lee (adapted)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:46:12 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 10:16:55PM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> Mark Reed scripsit:
> > (*) Similarly, the sandwich formed by wrapping up a mostly-lamb meat
> > mixture in a pita is pretty universally referred to as "a gyro"
> > /'ji.ro/ in the US, despite the singularity of the source "gyros".
>
> I more often hear /'dzairo/, as if it were the word "gyro" = "gyroscope".
Well, clearly you live in a less sophisticated part of the country than
Atlanta. :)
> As for cicadas...
Around here that's /s@'kei'[EMAIL PROTECTED]/, btw.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
