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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Conlang Relay 2004/2005
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Coastlines
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: The Need for Debate
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: German style orthography
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: German style orthography
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: German style orthography
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. CHAT Dagobert (was: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words))
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: The Need for Debate
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Coastlines
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Asha'ille site update
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Asha'ille site update
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: conlang names
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Austrian/German "thanks"?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: conlang names
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Towards a less Preliminary Sketch (was Re: Preliminary Sketch)
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: conlang names
From: Caleb Hines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Towards a less Preliminary Sketch (was Re: Preliminary Sketch)
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: German style orthography
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Austrian/German "thanks"?
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: German style orthography
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:43:11 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlang Relay 2004/2005
Barring unforeseen circumstances, Irina Rempt will be organising a
conlang relay starting at the end of December and lasting roughly
until February 2005. Please see below for the announcement she made on
the relay list; to join that list, go to
http://www.valdyas.org/mailman/listinfo/relay .
If you would like to participate, please send the application form
(which I'll also copy at the end of this message) *directly to Irina*.
For an explanation of the ring names (E/N/X) see the announcement.
Please don't forward the entire message to her, just the application
form itself.
Cheers,
Philip
(Watch the Reply-To!)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Irina Rempt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:06:11 +0100
Subject: [relay] Okay, I can do it!
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have a text, easy (I think), about 60 words.
I intend to start the relay between Christmas and the New Year; I'll be
Valdyan and keep New Year's Day out of the reckoning (so the people who
happen to have it then get 72 instead of 48 hours). Allowing for a few
days' delay we'll finish mid-February and I'll be able to give myself a
nice web page as a birthday present.
In another message I'll provide a form to fill in if you want to be in.
Please use that form to make it easier for me to see if I know
everything I need to know for scheduling.
There will be at least two rings:
E - "expert" for people who want to translate with minimal information.
No interlinear glosses, only vocabulary and grammar notes.
If *you* can handle minimal information, but your language is so complex
that the person following you is likely to need interlinear glosses or
extra info, please apply for N instead. (Yes, I know that this puts the
first complex-language person in N into a strange situation; nothing to
be done about that)
N - "novice" for people who want or need more information to work with.
Real novices go at the beginning of N, people with complex languages at
the end. If it fills up, I'll give precedence to the real novices.
And, if there's enough interest:
X - auxiliary languages, pre-existing constructed languages like Quenya
or Klingon, collaborative projects: basically anything that doesn't
allow you to make up words and grammar yourself. It's perhaps possible
to have some of these languages more than once, but I'll aim for
diversity first. (And I'll allow Latin, but no more than once)
I don't think I can handle more than 18-20 people in each ring. It's
possible that people with more than one language will have to choose
which language to use.
(Trebor, will you go first in E or N to translate from Ilaini? Henrik,
could you go last in E or N with your Germanic language so I can
translate from it?)
This announcement is NOT on the conlang list because I'm not subscribed
there any more; if anyone knows someone who'd miss the relay sorely if
they didn't hear of it, could you please alert them?
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 30-Nov-2004
_______________________________________________
relay mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.valdyas.org/mailman/listinfo/relay
===BEGIN APPLICATION FORM===
*Please* reply to me ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), *not* to the list, and leave
the subject header intact to allow my mail filter to collect the
replies in one place.
Name:
Preferred email address:
(this doesn't have to be the same address you're subscribed to the list
with)
>---- if more than one language, please cut and paste from here ----<
Language:
Ring (E, N or X; maximum of one in each ring):
(If N: are you a novice or is your language complicated?)
Prefer to follow language:
Prefer not to follow language:
>---- to here, and state order of preference in case of crowding ----<
Possible/impossible/preferred dates: (things like "no Tuesdays",
"weekends preferred". "not before February 2nd" or "as early as
possible" are all valid answers)
===END APPLICATION FORM===
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 01:36:02 +1030
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Coastlines
A technique I invented about a decade ago for drawing coastlines:
http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/islandmap.htm
Just in case it interests anybody.
Adrian.
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:19:39 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Need for Debate
And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Pope John II, to be exact -- successor to Pope John I, Pope Lars,
and Pope David.
[Am very very tightly crossing my fingers that the above is not
offensive to our papist brethren, but my confidence in my ability
to gauge offensiveness is running at low ebb.]
No offense taken here with regard to the new popes. However, you
might want to be careful with the use of the word "papist." American
Heritage Dictionary: "A Roman Catholic. Usually used
disparagingly." There's a lot of negative baggage in the word.
Charlie
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:51:36 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:23:53 +0200, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>They just bear it, same as with amny other over-complicated thing in
>>>Sanskrit not found in most other languages (e.g. dual case).
>>
>>Hmm. You meant dual number, didn't you? It's not as rare as you may think.
>>It was present in Old Russian (its remnants are still found in all East
>>Slavic lgs as a "counting form", to be used with numerals 2, 3 and 4 in
>>Nom. and Acc.), Old English (in personal pronouns), florishes in Hebrew
>>and Arabic etc.
>
>
> There's also a relict of the former presence of a dual in German: The
> Bavarian dialect pronoun for the second person plural isn't based on the
> plural of old, but of the dual of old: they say "enk", not "ihr".
The same is true of Icelandic, with the added frill that the
old dual pronouns are used as the ordinary first and second person
plural pronouns, while the old plurals are used as honorific
pronouns (although now only used when addressing the president
and the bishop -- and I doubt even the latter refers to himself
as _v�r_ anymore! :)
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:13:49 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
--- "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [I've used unicode in this message, but I don't know
> how to tell the
> web-interface to mark this message as UTF-8
> encoded.]
>
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:29:35 -0800, bob thornton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >/D/ ð (edh)
>
> I have the impression that nineteenth century German
> linguistics would
> rather use đ (d with stroke).
Ah. It's just that my ds are curved like edh, and I am
trying to make my notes and orthography combine in a
coherent way. But, yes, that makes sense.
>
> >/s/ s
> >/s_m/ ß (esszat)
> >/z/ s
> >/z_m/ ß (esszat)
>
> I guess that if eszett would be used for a
> pronunciation, then rather for
> /s/, as opposed to |s| for /z/.
Question: How is /s/ represented in German as of now?
=====
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
__________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:22:03 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:13:49 -0800, bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Question: How is /s/ represented in German as of now?
/s/ is represented in German typically by any of |s|, |ss|, or |�|
(es-zett) depending on the etymology of the word. Of those three, |s|
can also represent /z/ (typically at the beginning of a syllable or
between vowels).
Since word-initial |s| is always /z/ in German, I've seen |�| used in
transcriptions of foreign languages (e.g. "��nks" for "thanks" in a
tourist's guidebook/phrasebook of English) when the author wanted to
make clear that an /s/ sound was intended. It looks a bit strange to
me, though, since |�| does not occur word-initially in any native
German word.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:28:17 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
--- Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:13:49 -0800, bob thornton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Question: How is /s/ represented in German as of
> now?
>
> /s/ is represented in German typically by any of
> |s|, |ss|, or |�|
> (es-zett) depending on the etymology of the word. Of
> those three, |s|
> can also represent /z/ (typically at the beginning
> of a syllable or
> between vowels).
>
> Since word-initial |s| is always /z/ in German, I've
> seen |�| used in
> transcriptions of foreign languages (e.g. "��nks"
> for "thanks" in a
> tourist's guidebook/phrasebook of English) when the
> author wanted to
> make clear that an /s/ sound was intended. It looks
> a bit strange to
> me, though, since |�| does not occur word-initially
> in any native
> German word.
>
So, perhaps use eszett initially, and s medially for /z/?
=====
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:42:59 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CHAT Dagobert (was: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words))
On Thursday, December 9, 2004, at 03:15 , caeruleancentaur wrote:
> Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> The only other bearer of the name I can recall hearing of is the
>> Frankish 7th C king.
>
> Andreas
>
> Dagobert I - Austrasia 623-628; the Franks 629-633.
> Dagobert II - Austrasia 674-678
> Dagobert III - the Franks 711-716
..and there's a well-known (in France) children's song about "le bon roi
Dagobert" in which each verse has the good king doing something silly and
the great St Eloi putting him right. How do I know? Having a Frech
daughter-in-law and two bilingual grandsons sort of helps. I've heard sung
many times :)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:43:36 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
On Wednesday, December 8, 2004, at 10:44 , Keith Gaughan wrote:
> Isaac Penzev wrote:
>
>> Keith Gaughan wrote:
>>
>>> Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, but keep in mind that this decision was made in the late middle
>>>> ages, so it refers to their knowledge at that time.
>>>
>>> Tsk, tsk! Quite the opposite! Languages with a VSO word order would have
>>> been quite well-known. Ireland, for a start, was one of the centres of
>>> learning during the Middle Ages, Gaelic and was one of the first
>>> langauges with a written grammar. You can count all the other Celtic
>>> languages in too.
>>
>> And don't forget the Biblical Hebrew: it's predominantly VSO, esp. in
>> narratives.
>
> You're right! And Classical and Modern Arabic too.
Modern Arabic is hardly relevant to Sk�lansk, as Pascal will probably
point out. But Classical Arabic is a different matter. The Moors entered
Spain in 711 and remained there for much of the middle ages, until the
Granada fell in 1492.
> What about the other Semitic languages; are they mostly VSO too?
True - but possibly not relevant to Sk�lansk. However.....
On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 12:14 , Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
[snip]
> After thorough research of the most versed scholars, this project was
> eventually realized with some distinct and unique features:
>
> * It was decided to put the verb at the beginning, followed by subject
> and object, since this structure was not found in any other known
> languages.
If the conclusion of the research by these scholars from the islands
Sjaelland, Lolland, Holster and M�n in Denmark in the late middle ages was
that it was not found in any other known language, then with respect one
really has to ask how thorough the research was.
They really should have discovered that it was used, but less common than
SVO or SOV. Far rarer are those languages that regularly put the object
before the subject with OSV apparently being the rarest among the world's
languages.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:51:56 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Need for Debate
----- Original Message -----
From: "caeruleancentaur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> No offense taken here with regard to the new popes. However, you
> might want to be careful with the use of the word "papist." American
> Heritage Dictionary: "A Roman Catholic. Usually used
> disparagingly." There's a lot of negative baggage in the word.
Right. And if you're a fan of Jonathan Swift, you'll recognize the negative
baggage. :)
Sally
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:21:18 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Coastlines
On Fri, Dec 10, 2004 at 01:36:02AM +1030, Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating
Dragon) wrote:
> A technique I invented about a decade ago for drawing coastlines:
>
> http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/islandmap.htm
>
> Just in case it interests anybody.
Interesting way of creating maps. :-) I wonder, though, what I should
do if I already have an approximate idea of what the map should look
like, but just need to set down the "fuzzy bits"?
T
--
It said to install Windows 2000 or better, so I installed Linux instead.
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:36:11 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Asha'ille site update
[Consolidating replies to keep under the quota.]
On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 12:06:03PM -0800, Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> Emaelivpeith H. S. Teoh:
> > > Other, shorter, formats (by popular demand ;) ) are linked from
> > >
> > > http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/~arthaey/conlang/lexicon/
> >
> > The concise dictionary format is nice. The tabular format doesn't show
> > up right on both Opera 7.54/Linux and Firefox 0.8/Linux; the right
> > column is too wide and extends past the right margin. (This could be a
> > side-effect of my stubborn and entirely irrational insistence that
> > browser windows be exactly 800 pixels wide, no more, no less. So feel
> > free to ignore me if you so choose. :-P)
>
> I'd like it to look nice even at such small ;) screen sizes. But I'm
> not sure how to fix this particular problem, besides offering a
> single-column table alternative. Suggestions?
Isn't there a way in CSS to specify relative positions rather than
absolute positions? E.g., something along the lines of "place this
element at 50% across the browser window". It's probably a bad idea to
use absolute sizes/positions on webpages, 'cos it'd show up wrong if,
e.g., you load it up on a handheld device.
[...]
> > I was hoping to find some page that describes how the Roman
> > orthography maps to the IPA sounds, though. I know I've seen it before
> > (or maybe you told me on IRC) but I can't seem to find it. Is it
> > linked from the main page?
>
> It's up there, hiding in the Scripts section. Here's a direct link:
>
> http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/~arthaey/conlang/scripts/kateinu.html
D'oh! How did I miss that? I guess I *am* blind after all.
[...]
> Do you think that chart belongs in the grammar section, too? Probably so...
>
> Okay, there is now a separate "Romanized Pronuncation" page link from
> the Grammar section. :)
Cool. Although, shouldn't that come after the phonetic inventory page?
It'd kinda make sense if you said what the phonetic inventory was
before saying how to transcribe it. :-)
> > Also, at the bottom of stress.html I see the message: [an error
> > occurred while processing this directive]. I don't think this is
> > intentional. :-)
>
> What error? No error. You saw nothing. Nothing, I say! (The
> non-existent error has now been fixed. ;)
:-)
> > PS. Whatever happened to the IRC server? It's been down the whole day
> > yesterday and still isn't back yet.
>
> I second your question. Hope the machine hasn't died or anything serious...
[...]
Or maybe Robert just hasn't been paying attention to the ircd?
On Thu, Dec 09, 2004 at 04:39:50AM +0100, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >...
> > browser windows be exactly 800 pixels wide, no more, no less.
>
> Really? Same anankastic behaviour for me. :-)
So I'm not the only one! :-) I absolutely dislike browser windows that
fill up the entire screen. I like to be able to see more than one
window at a time. Mostly 'cos I use mouse-focus, and like typing stuff
into other windows while another one is placed on top. I mean, how
else would you minimize the number of clicks necessary to copy-n-paste
text from a large window into a smaller one? And how else would you
fire off some background command in xterm while reading something else
in the browser window on top? :-)
> (At least with screens of exactly 1600 pixels width. I love two
> browser windows next to each other.)
My current resolution is only 1024x768, so that doesn't quite work.
Besides, I hate multiple browser windows... long live MDI! :-P
> > So feel free to ignore me if you so choose. :-P)
>
> No! Don't ignore! :-)
:-)
T
--
The early bird gets the worm. Moral: ewww...
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:33:49 -0800
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Asha'ille site update
Emaelivpeith H. S. Teoh:
> Isn't there a way in CSS to specify relative positions rather than
> absolute positions? E.g., something along the lines of "place this
> element at 50% across the browser window".
That may have worked, but hopefully the new tabular layout will work
better for everyone. (It looks a lot like your Tatari Faran page now,
actually. ;)
I've also added subentries and multiple senses to the detailed
dictionary. That's just about all the data I have in my source data
file, so I'm almost done (except for any further fiddling).
> Cool. Although, shouldn't that come after the phonetic inventory page?
> It'd kinda make sense if you said what the phonetic inventory was
> before saying how to transcribe it. :-)
Good point. Done. Thank you for the feedback!
--
AA
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:32:10 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names
----- Original Message -----
From: # 1
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:13 AM
Subject: conlang names
I've started my first conlang but I encountered a problem: the name
What do you take as names?
It is logic when you call it by the name of the imaginary people who speak it
but I don't have any history about my conlang.
There is also the possibility to call it with one of the words of tha
language like "esperanto" but for me I don't know wich one take and if I make a
bad choice I would consider it as a lack of originality...
Where do you take your ideas for your conlang names?
-- I use the letter C- (for "conlang #), followed by a number such as 14, 24,
etc.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:42:39 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Austrian/German "thanks"?
are words such as /danke/ more German or Austrian or some other region?
how would the words for "hello" & "fare thee well" & "thank you" differ in
Sax-Coburg, Germany, and Austria?
thank you.
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:51:21 +0100
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names
Hallo!
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:13:52 -0500,
# 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What do you take as names?
Depends on the language and the story behind it. Usually,
my conlang names are in some way or other derived from
self-designations, or from names used by neighbouring people,
as with natlang names. (I seek to imitate natlangs in my conlangs.)
_Germanech_ is the name of the language in the language itself.
_Modern Vandalic_ is, well, the modern version of Vandalic,
an East Germanic language spoken in Tunisia.
_Old Albic_ is from Old Albic _alba_ `Elf'; _Albic_ is the name
of the family as a whole, and the Old Albic name for Old Albic
is _Elbirin_ `Elvish' for the language with all its dialects and
_Ta� Tach_ `proper tongue' for the classical "high" form of the
language. _Nurelbhrin_, the name of a (yet mostly unexplored,
but I already have some sound laws of it) modern descendant of
Old Albic, means `Low Elvish' in Nurelbhrin. (`High Elvish'
is to be understood to mean Classical Old Albic.) The other modern
Albic languages are provisionally named _Caledonian_, _Iverinian_
and _Macaronesian_, named after Caledonia, an Old Albic designation
for Ireland, and the little-used term "Macaronesia" for the Azores,
Madeira and Canary Islands.
_Pictic_, the name of a yet unexplored family, the "Dwarvish"
to the Albic "Elvish" of the British Isles, is a provisional
designation derived from Latin _Picti_.
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:28:39 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Towards a less Preliminary Sketch (was Re: Preliminary Sketch)
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 07:51:35PM -0500, Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:12:57 -0800, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 05:16:42PM -0500, Paul Bennett wrote:
> >>This afternoon, during a slightly slack period at work, I jotted down
> >>some
> >>notes of a language unlike my previous projects.
> >>
> >>Here are my notes in full. Any thoughts, questions or suggestions?
> >>
> >>br /B\/
> >
> >Interesting. I don't know of any lang that uses the bilabial trill
> >phonemically. Cool! :-)
>
> There are some, or else the IPA is lying.
I wonder what they might be.
> Either way, I'm bloody well using it, in part because it's so much
> fun to say ;-)
:-)
[...]
> >>ee /i/
> >
> >This looks a bit too English, IMHO.
> >
> >[...]
> >>oo /u/
> >
> >Again, this looks a bit too English to me. You could have other ways
> >of writing [u]: e.g., /ou/ ala Greek. Just MHO of course.
>
> The whole point of the alphabet is specifically to look as though it were
> devised by a person encountering it for the first time for whom
> linguistics is not the main field of study. It might become a Lostlangs
> candidate.
Ah, I see.
[...]
> >>Language is modifier-head,
> >
> >You mean modifier-initial?
>
> Yeah. I've encountered Head-Modifier and Modifier-Head for Head-First and
> Head-Last, or modifier-last and modifier-first. For some reason, it sticks
> in my head better.
OK.
[...]
> Verbs of motion supplete for path instead of manner, with adverbs for
> manner.
> e.g. br'gar "go along", ngana "go toward", shoo ngana "go walkingly
> towards", drork ngana "go stealthily towards", drork chovbr'gar
> "stealthily traverse a beach", warde ngana "go runningly towards",
> cheptjen "go through", tuk' "meander within"
[... snip very cool examples ...]
Ah, so the verb only indicates direction, whereas the actual action
(walk/run/fly) is indicated by adverbs? That's a very interesting
idea.
T
--
Help a man when he is in trouble and he will remember you when he is in
trouble again.
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:40:05 -0500
From: Caleb Hines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names
I don't have any true conlangs (yet) just conlang concepts, but they all
have names (possibly subject to change in the future). Most of the names
were purposely designed to exhibit properties of the language itself,
without thought to meaning, with the exception of Akathanu.
Akathanu
A- = Denoting proper nouns
ka- = this
thanu = language
This Language
I used to think of it as "the language of the Akanusa", where 'nusa' was:
nu < numa = person
-sa = A set, or group of X. The collective plural
This People-Group
But I didn't want to call the language that, so I came up with a related
and good-sounding name (Akathanu) and decided that what's left over (thanu)
must mean language.
Eoheun:
I want it to be vowel-heavy (to the point where V is an acceptable
syllable) and very beautiful-sounding, so I decided that the name means
something to the effect of 'beautiful' or 'a thing of beaty'. Pronounced
either /ejohe'jun/ or /ejo'hejun/ (not sure of stress rules yet).
Flonderlambik (sometimes written 'Flonderlambic'):
I wanted it to be the opposite of Eoheun -- consonant-heavy.
Pronounced /'flOndr\=l&mbIk/. I don't know the meaning, although I imagine
it may mean 'people's language'.
Patacasalahuminu:
Gets its name from its alphabet. Every letter of the alphabet is present in
the name. I devised it as a sort of mnemonic device to remember the
phonology (I came up with while driving, and couldn't write it down), and
the name sorta stuck. This language might be polysynthetic.
I've later decided that the speakers are nomadic tribes that live on
horseback, and that 'pataca' is onomotopoeia (sp?) for 'gallop'. In this
case, '-sala' must be a way to derive a 'doer' noun from a verb,
and 'huminu' must mean 'speech', yeilding the meaning 'Galloper-Speech'
or 'Horseman's Speech'.
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:32:10 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -- I use the letter C- (for "conlang #), followed by a number such as
14, 24, etc.
>
Be careful with C-14 -- It may tend to decay after a few thousand years!
;-)
~Caleb
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:05:06 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Towards a less Preliminary Sketch (was Re: Preliminary Sketch)
H. S. Teoh wrote at 2004-12-09 13:28:39 (-0800)
> On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 07:51:35PM -0500, Paul Bennett wrote:
> > On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:12:57 -0800, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 05:16:42PM -0500, Paul Bennett wrote:
> > >>
> > >>br /B\/
> > >
> > >Interesting. I don't know of any lang that uses the bilabial
> > >trill phonemically. Cool! :-)
> >
> > There are some, or else the IPA is lying.
>
> I wonder what they might be.
>
See this LINGUIST List post:
http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/8/8-45.html
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:36:05 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:19:28 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:23:53 +0200, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>There's also a relict of the former presence of a dual in German: The
>Bavarian dialect pronoun for the second person plural isn't based on the
>plural of old, but of the dual of old: they say "enk", not "ihr".
That's not a relict in *German*, but a relict in *Bavarian*.
Bavarian is pretty much a language of its own, as it differs quite a lot
from normal German, so much that it's unintelligible for the normal German.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Sk�lansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:50:28 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:22:03 +0100, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:13:49 -0800, bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Question: How is /s/ represented in German as of now?
/s/ is either represented by s (before consonants) or by � (at the end of a
word or compound). "ss" was originally always /ss/ (two s sounds), but since
the German spelling got viciously raped by the "spelling reform", *some* �
are supposed to be written "ss" now, while only representing a single "s"
sound.
>Since word-initial |s| is always /z/ in German,
That's not correct. There is *no* distinction made for being word-initial.
The distinctions made are "s before vowel" (which is always /z/), "s before
consonant except p, t" (which is always /s/) and "s before p, t" (which is
always /S/). All of this regardless of position in the word.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Sk�lansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:52:51 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Austrian/German "thanks"?
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:42:39 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> are words such as /danke/ more German or Austrian or some other region?
I guess standard German uses _danke_ in all regions. In more dialectal
varieties, the word _danksch�n_ may be common in certain regions. In Swiss
dialects, the French loan _merci_ is more common (at least in Western Swiss
German), pronounced /'mers:i/, though you didn't ask about Switzerland. I
doubt that Swiss people would use _merci_ in Swiss standard German.
> how would the words for "hello" & "fare thee well" & "thank you" differ in
>Sax-Coburg, Germany, and Austria?
"Fare thee well"? I suppose you mean the standard farewell greeting, and not
some stylisticly marked form?
I guess there are too many variants. I guess that the words _hallo_ and
_tsch�ss_ are the used in the entire German speaking area, as well as the
polite forms _guten Tag/Abend_ "good day/evening" and _auf Wiedersehen_ "on
re-see". The plain form _servus_ is broadly known to be Austrian (as is the
polite form _gr�ezi_ broadly known to be Swiss, even though not all Swiss
Germans use it).
In this region, the most common greetings are: welcome greetings: _tschou,
halo, s�l�_, polite form: _gr�essech_ "greet-you"; farewell greetings:
_tschou, tsch�ss_, polite form: _adieu_, polite and plain: _ade_. In
addressing groups, the word _z�me_ "together" is often added, especially in
the plain forms. And then there are also the time of day greetings...
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:55:06 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:08:49 +0000, Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Ray Brown wrote:
>
>The joy of the archives:
>
>http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0308d&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=5853
Pretty much what I had in mind. At only 9% for VSO, a "rare" is well
deserved here.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Sk�lansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:05:15 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:28:17 -0800, bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>--- Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Since word-initial |s| is always /z/ in German, I've
>> seen |�| used in
>> transcriptions of foreign languages (e.g. "��nks"
>> for "thanks" in a
>> tourist's guidebook/phrasebook of English) when the
>> author wanted to
>> make clear that an /s/ sound was intended. It looks
>> a bit strange to
>> me, though, since |�| does not occur word-initially
>> in any native
>> German word.
>>
>
>So, perhaps use eszett initially, and s medially for /z/?
That would be possible. I've read that Jacob Grimm (one of the two
fairy-tale Grimms) proposed to use the long ſ for /z/ and round s for /s/,
though he abandoned this proposition later.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:10:19 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:36:05 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:19:28 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:23:53 +0200, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>There's also a relict of the former presence of a dual in German: The
>>Bavarian dialect pronoun for the second person plural isn't based on the
>>plural of old, but of the dual of old: they say "enk", not "ihr".
>
>That's not a relict in *German*, but a relict in *Bavarian*.
>Bavarian is pretty much a language of its own, as it differs quite a lot
>from normal German, so much that it's unintelligible for the normal German.
Not all dialects of a language need to be mutually intellegible. Most
linguists consider the Bavarians to speak German, though I don't doubt that
some linguists may consider the Bavarians not to belong to the German
speaking world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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