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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: German style orthography
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: conlang names and Mensa
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Towards a less Preliminary Sketch (was Re: Preliminary Sketch)
From: Rene Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Greek definite article (was Re: Addendum: a holy spirit)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Word order typology (was: Skälansk - History and Babel text)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Babel Text in Xinkutlan
From: J Y S Czhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: German style orthography
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: German style orthography
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: conlang names and Mensa
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Conlangs in the movies
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: German style orthography
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: conlang names and Mensa
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Asha'ille site update
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:34:20 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
>
> To which, on 10 Dec 2004, at 6.42 pm, Joe replied:
>
>> They sound near identical to me, actually. If I concentrate, I can
>> pick
>> out individual differences, but appart from that, your accents sound
>> similar. And Tristan's does sound slightly more stereotypically
>> Austrialian, but if I was to guess, I would know your Australian-ness.
>> If you like, I'll record my accent, see what you think (British).
>
>
> Puts everything in context, doesn't it? :) I'd be interesting in
> hearing your pronunciations, Joe.
http://joe.thehilltribe.com/vowels.wav
Mostly, as far as I can tell, it follows the general pattern in young
people's RP of monophthonisation.
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:05:32 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
----- Original Message -----
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
> On 10 Dec 2004, at 6.08 pm, Ray Brown wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, December 9, 2004, at 09:25 , Philip Newton wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 02:48:04 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> but just wanted to note that some
> >> instances of this come when there are two (nearly) concurrent sound
> >> changes such that, say, /d/ becomes /t/ while, say, /D/ becomes /d/ --
> >> so all or most original /d/'s disappeared but there are still /d/'s in
> >> the resulting language that used to be a different sound.
> >
> > Yes, but that is not what I understand Rodlox to mean.
what I meant was, such as ->
/Murad/ becomes /Murat/ *
..yet...
/Abdulhamid/ does not become /Abtulhamid/
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:51:09 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
Quoting Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:33 PM
> Subject: Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
>
>
> > On 10 Dec 2004, at 6.08 pm, Ray Brown wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, December 9, 2004, at 09:25 , Philip Newton wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 02:48:04 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > >> but just wanted to note that some
> > >> instances of this come when there are two (nearly) concurrent sound
> > >> changes such that, say, /d/ becomes /t/ while, say, /D/ becomes /d/ --
> > >> so all or most original /d/'s disappeared but there are still /d/'s in
> > >> the resulting language that used to be a different sound.
> > >
> > > Yes, but that is not what I understand Rodlox to mean.
>
> what I meant was, such as ->
>
> /Murad/ becomes /Murat/ *
> ..yet...
> /Abdulhamid/ does not become /Abtulhamid/
You mean does not become /abtulhamit/?
For the first 't', the reason no doubt is the different phonological contexted;
final stops are much more likely to devoice that ones sandwiched between two
voiced sounds, like in "Abdul-". We'd speak of a conditioned sound-change, or a
sound-change in certain positions.
If the second 'd' also persists, then something weird would indeed seem to be
going on. The word, as Ray says, would indeed seem to be "exception".
A general comment on your posting style; you are frequently extremely brief,
often to the point of endangering comprehensibility. If you took the trouble to
spell out your questions and opinions in some more detail, you'd not have to
write so many subsequent clarifications. Just trying to help.
Andreas
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:45:39 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
Quoting "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 09:59:28 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >This, alas, is no longer true in the age of Neudeutsch - sufficient numbers
> >of speakers retain initial [s] in loans like _Sex_ ([sEks], contrasting
> >with _sechs_ [zEks]) that Duden recognizes it.
>
> What a surprising minimal pair! I also have initial /s/ in certain loans,
> e.g. _Cidre, Cedille, City_, but certainly not in _Sex_ (which to me is
> homophonous to _sechs_ "six"), but now that you mention it I think I
> remember I've heard this pronunciation on the media from Germany.
Don't blame me, blame my German teacher (a native of East Berlin), who pointed
it out to me! :)
I know it's a bit "bad", since the [sEks] pronunciation is far from universal -
indeed, if ordering in the Duden is of significance, [zEks] would appear to be
the commoner pronuncation - but I couldn't think of any actual minimal pair
involving a better example like _City_.
I notice that Duden gives [sEnt] as the only pronuncation of _Cent_. I've always
been saying [tsEnt], and unless my memory and/or perception is playing tricks on
me - which is certainly possible - so have the Germans I've known. What does the
list's germanophones say?
Andreas
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:50:13 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
Hello!
For the 1,000,001st time, what would you call "conlanging" in
application forms? I'm just applying for a job experience at Bertelsmann
Group or Hänssler Verlag. Just "invention of languages" seems to much
dilettant, but "onomatopoeia" (sp?) OTOH is too posh IMO. I'm giving
conlanging because I've also written that my favourite subjects in
school are English, Musical Education and Computer Science. I also said
that I'm interested in languages. Since I'm also playing the classical
guitar. All in all, conlaning might thus be quoteworthy, too, although
it's not an acknoledged art, it's nevertheless showing (at least a
certain bit) of creativity IMO. I hope also in the eyes of the guy at
the staff department.
Thanks in advance,
Carsten
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:01:59 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names and Mensa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaul Vardi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> You guys should consider yourselves lucky - you're naming your Conlangs
> now as [presumably] sane adults. I named my Conlang when I was 14,
> building my language during dull moments in math classes... The result
> is (pretty embarrasingly) that my Conlang has ever since born the name
> Tesk. Why? (*Blush*) Because I saw the Conlang as a manifestation of
> my intelligence [bear in mind that I thought I was the only person in
> the world doing this]; intelligence led me to the organization Mensa
> [NOT a road I'd go down today]; mensa = table; and table in my Conlang
> is tesk.
>
> Happy naming!
This is really very funny, Shaul! :) It's enlightening to understand the
processes of association we go through. "Tesk," too, reminds me of "desk."
I don't know if you were thinking in terms of English then (I assume you are
multilingual), but I wonder if sitting at your desk in math class you chose
a name for table that subliminally reminded you of "desk" in English.
Teonaht comes from my need to find a name that reminded me of the orient, of
"Siam," which is what we called Thailand back in the fifties (or at least I
thought so; I was very influenced by the movie "The King and I"). Siam was
so lovely, so exotic, but I couldn't just copy it. So I thought up Teon,
with the emphasis on the |o|. It should really be spelled Teoon in Teonaht,
but that was before I had devised the double letter signal for emphasis.
Then it became "Teonean," as in Roumanian, Baviarian, etc., variously
spelled Teonyan, Taonean, etc. When I hit on the -ath adjectival ending,
then it became Teonath. When I decided to reverse the letters in the Roman
version of Teonaht writing, it became the word it is today.
Back to "mensa." Mensa can also mean "meal," and as a deponent (mensa est)
"measured," "distributed," "estimated," and "traversed" (metior, metiri,
mensus sum). The organization Mensa may take its name from "table," as in
"round table," but it also has the coy suggestion in it of mens,
"mentality." It was never an organization I was interested in joining,
since at the time I had (and still do) a high contempt for IQ tests and what
they "measure," which I think is pretty limited, and doesn't guarantee you
success or happiness. And so did my mother, who felt that assigning a
number to someone's intelligence could either hamper their productivity
and/or make them so insufferable and cocky no one could live with them. :)
I had a much better sense of the range of my mental abilities from an
aptitude testing agency called "The Johnson O'Connor Research Foundation:
Human Engineering Laboratory." I don't know if it still exists. I don't
see any websites on it, and when I google it, I get the Berkeley Robots
Laboratory!
I take that back. Here it is, and it's still going strong:
http://www.jocrf.org/Bulletin161.pdf
It was a not-for-profit organization. It was fabulous. It tested a
wide-range of human abilities: inductive reasoning, deductive reasoning,
analytical reasoning, tonal memory, pitch discrimination, foresight,
creative association, breadth of vocabulary (this is one of the biggest
elements in "intelligence"--how much you read, how well you understand
ideas, how well you express yourself), memory for language (foreign language
ability), structural visualization, and personality type--a test that was
subtler than the Meyers-Briggs test. It was meant to be an aid for
understanding your talents, your personality, and a guideline for choosing a
profession. Unlike the IQ test, which just assigns you a numeric
designation and an attitude, it was aimed at providing for some degree of
success and happiness in your life. The test was to be taken twice, since
aptitudes develop: once in your early teens and once at college level. Some
of the tests seemed strange, but the organization had started it in 1922 by
testing individuals who were wildly successful in the careers they had
chosen: musicians, artists, entrepreneurs, teachers, writers, CEOs,
engineers, mathematicians, technicians, linguists, carpenters, doctors,
photographers, social workers, and so forth and so on.
Best of all, it wasn't a test that you could "fail," or that gave you a
NUMBER which determined your viability as a thinking and performing human
being. And wisdom and experience will always trump high IQ.
Sally
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 18:23:48 +0100
From: Rene Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Towards a less Preliminary Sketch (was Re: Preliminary Sketch)
Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:12:57 -0800, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 05:16:42PM -0500, Paul Bennett wrote:
>>
>>> tj /c_+C_+)/
>>> ch /tS)/
>>
>> Whoa, this is a hard distinction for me to pronounce.
>
> One is apical, the other is laminal. One has the teeth closed, the other
> doesn't.
Huh? [c] is apical? Or [c_+]? I always interpreted [c] as laminal, and
was guessing [c_+] is also laminal. Let me disambiguate by writing [c_a]
and [c_m] (one of which will be redundant).
I have no difficulty distinguishing [c_+_mC_+_m)] from [tS].. it is
quite similar to [t_jj_0)], and [t_jj)] occurs in Dutch.
René
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 18:16:53 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Greek definite article (was Re: Addendum: a holy spirit)
On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 02:19 , Tim Smith wrote:
> At 12:35 PM 12/4/2004 -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
>
>> This is most interesting. I'm also interested in what looks like a
>> doubling of the definite article in Mt 12:32 tou pneumatos tou hagiou?
>> The
>> spirit the holy? It I'm right, that's quite some definition! Is this
>> common in Greek?
>
> As it happens, this is something I've been wondering about lately.
I did answer this query of Sally's, but....
> I seem
> to remember reading somewhere, years ago, that in Greek, when you have a
> noun with a definite article and an adjective, it works something like
> this:
>
> If the adjective is attributive (modifying the noun), the unmarked order
> is
> article - adjective - noun (_to hagion pneuma_, to put the above example
> in
[etc. snipped]
Yep. In Classical (Attic) _to hagion pneuma_ would mean 'the holy
breath/wind' and the usage at that time was:
ATTRIBUTIVE
to hagion pneuma = the holy breath
to hagion to pneuma = the *holy* breath
PREDICATIVE
hagion to pneuma = the breath is holy.
to pneuma hagion = the breath is holy.
> This struck me as a really nifty and elegant arrangement. But is it
> correct?
Yes, it is.
> I can't remember where I read it, and I haven't found any
> reference to this anywhere else. I'm starting to wonder if I dreamed it,
> or just made it up in a moment of conlanging revery and then somehow got
> it
> confused with Greek. Ray, or any other Greek scholars out there, can you
> confirm or deny that Greek actually works this way?
It's OK, you did not dream it :)
But this true only of _descriptive_ adjective and descriptive adjectival
phrases. Demonstrative, for example, behaved differently:
touto to pneuma = 'this breath'
to pneuma touto = 'this breath'
*_to touto pneuma_ is not found, nor is *_to pneuma to touto_ . If want to
use "this" predicatively, we need to include the verb _esti_ "is".
But, just to add to the fun, if a descriptive adjective or AP were used,
then the demonstrative could stand between the AP anf the noun, for
example:
he: stene: haute; hodos (Xenophon)
the narrow this road = this narrow road.
So we could have: to hagion touto pneuma = this holy breath
The more usual word order would be: haute: he: stene: hodos/ touto to
hagion pneuma
> And if it does, is it all periods of Greek (and if not, which one(s))?
I understand that attributive descriptive adjectives and demonstratives
still behave the same way in modern Greek; but I am fairly certain the
copula _einai_ /ine/ "is/ are" is required now when AP are used
predicatively. Philip Newton is probably better qualified to answer that.
The question arose with New Testament Greek. This is a subset of Koine
Greek when Greek had become an IAL throughout the easterm Med region. One
finds a variety of use raging from those who artificially use archaic
Attic styles to colloquial styles affected by the local L1. In the case of
the NT, there is also the strong influence of strongly Semtic influenced
Septuagint Greek.
As for other ancient dialects, my gut feeling is that they did behave more
or less like Attic in this respect, but I would need to do some serious
research to check that out, as well as Koine usage, for which
unfortunately at the moment I simply do not have time.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:22:31 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
Hi!
"Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> How do you like this? http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/say/vowels.htm
>...
Very nice! I especially like Tristan's [p_hju:6].
**Henrik
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 18:16:43 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Word order typology (was: Skälansk - History and Babel text)
On Thursday, December 9, 2004, at 10:55 , Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:08:49 +0000, Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Ray Brown wrote:
>>
>> The joy of the archives:
>>
>> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0308d&L=conlang&F=&S=
>> &P=5853
>
> Pretty much what I had in mind. At only 9% for VSO, a "rare" is well
> deserved here.
I want to move away from Skälansk - Pascal has explained why the creators
of the language might not have been aware of SVO languages - to the actual
figures. The order of popularity of different word orders is not
surprising, but I am suspicious about the low percentage actually given to
VSO occurrences. Certainly it seems too low for the Mediterranean and
European area as recent mails have shown. But is it really so much rarer
in sub-Saharan Africa, in non-Semitic Asia, in Oceana & the Americas? Is
it not found among native american languages?
Also as someone - I apologize for forgetting the name - asked recently,
how do ergative languages fit into this?
These percentages all seem to be due to Greenberg's findings in the 1960s.
I believe Greenberg classified Basque as SOV equating the absolutuive
case with 'subject'. Is the (a) correct, and (b) if correct, is it valid?
I suppose one reason that VSO does not rare to me is that I've been
familiar with one for some 40 years.
Has, indeed, more work been done on this since Greenberg's?
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:29:14 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
Glossopoeia. Language invention.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carsten Becker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:50 AM
Subject: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
> Hello!
>
> For the 1,000,001st time, what would you call "conlanging" in
> application forms? I'm just applying for a job experience at Bertelsmann
> Group or Hänssler Verlag. Just "invention of languages" seems to much
> dilettant, but "onomatopoeia" (sp?) OTOH is too posh IMO. I'm giving
> conlanging because I've also written that my favourite subjects in
> school are English, Musical Education and Computer Science. I also said
> that I'm interested in languages. Since I'm also playing the classical
> guitar. All in all, conlaning might thus be quoteworthy, too, although
> it's not an acknoledged art, it's nevertheless showing (at least a
> certain bit) of creativity IMO. I hope also in the eyes of the guy at
> the staff department.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Carsten
>
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 05:17:21 +1030
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
Earlier I wrote in response to Tristan:
> Also your very low vowel in "storm".
Dammit, I meant _very closed vowel_. I can never get used to "low"
meaning "open". It always trips me up.
Joe wrote:
> http://joe.thehilltribe.com/vowels.wav
>
> Mostly, as far as I can tell, it follows the general pattern in young
> people's RP of monophthonisation.
I note without surprise that in at least two particulars, it's more
like Tristan's than mine. Firstly, there's the monophthogonal 'stare',
and secondly there's the back-vowel pronunciation of 'tourist',
although Joe goes further than Tristan in also having back vowels in
the other three words to match it.
To me, both of these particulars are markers of Britishness, and I
have always regarded them as such.
On the other hand, there is at least one particular in which Joe's
pronunciation is more like mine than Tristan's. Out of the three of
us, Tristan's "stood" is the most back, Joe's is the most front, and
mine is somewhere in between. This is definitely a British marker, so
my pronunciation of "stood" is certainly a little more British-like
than Tristan's.
So in some particulars, I'm more British, but in other particulars,
Tristan is more British.
Other markers of Britishness that Joe does not share with either
Tristan or myself, and are not mentioned above, include:
* The pronunciation of 'stay' with [EI] rather than [&I].
* The pronunciation of /I/ in 'stint' being more open whereas the
Australian /I/ is closer to /i/.
* The pronunciation of /&/ in 'stand' being more open, that is to
say, Joe's /&/ is nearer to [a] while the Australian /&/ is nearer
to [E].
* The vowel in the second syllable of 'tourist' being /I/ and not
/@/.
* Consonant wise, the main difference is that the 't' on the end of
'stout' is much more aspirated.
Those are all of the ones I notice easily; there are others but I have
to listen harder to discern them. Also, Joe, do you have a cold? Your
nose sounds blocked.
Adrian.
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:04:47 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
Hi!
Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> For the 1,000,001st time, what would you call "conlanging" in
> application forms?
I'd call it 'interest in grammar theory'. :-P
For the creativity part, I'd then paraphrase it a bit so that it
does not sound profane:
E.g. 'Entwurf von Sprachen zur Erforschung der grammatischen
Grundlagen in verschiedensten Sprachfamilien.'
**Henrik
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:09:41 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
Hi!
Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Glossopoeia. Language invention.
I'd say the problem with that one is that is might scare away
the person that reads it. I doubt it's well-known. And when
looking it up, they find 'language invention'. And then they
might think: 'So, that li'l chap wanted to sound smart.'
No, I would not use that.
**Henrik
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:08:31 -0500
From: J Y S Czhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Babel Text in Xinkutlan
wowza, man.
or as they say in Terapang (futuristic pidgin Pan-English): ouza, mon.
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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:05:39 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:10:19 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Not all dialects of a language need to be mutually intellegible. Most
>linguists consider the Bavarians to speak German, though I don't doubt that
>some linguists may consider the Bavarians not to belong to the German
>speaking world.
What makes out a dialect is that it only varies slightly from the main
language, so it can be understood without much problems by all speakers of
the main language.
Once a dialect has changed so tremendously from the main language that it is
totally unintelligible to speakers of the main language (as is the case with
Bavarian), it has become a proper language of its own.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:15:19 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:45:39 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Don't blame me, blame my German teacher (a native of East Berlin), who pointed
>it out to me! :)
>
>I know it's a bit "bad", since the [sEks] pronunciation is far from universal -
>indeed, if ordering in the Duden is of significance, [zEks] would appear to be
>the commoner pronuncation - but I couldn't think of any actual minimal pair
>involving a better example like _City_.
As I said, (written) s before vowel is always voiced. Only in imported
loanwords where it's written, it can be pronounced voiceless, however...
>I notice that Duden gives [sEnt] as the only pronuncation of _Cent_. I've
always
>been saying [tsEnt], and unless my memory and/or perception is playing
tricks on
>me - which is certainly possible - so have the Germans I've known. What
does the
>list's germanophones say?
Pronouncing "c" as /ts/ rather than /s/ is very common indeed. Come to think
of it, I can't remember a single instance where someone actually pronounced
it /s/ and not /ts/...
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:56:25 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
Hi!
Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Quoting "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 09:59:28 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >This, alas, is no longer true in the age of Neudeutsch - sufficient numbers
> > >of speakers retain initial [s] in loans like _Sex_ ([sEks], contrasting
> > >with _sechs_ [zEks]) that Duden recognizes it.
> >
> > What a surprising minimal pair! I also have initial /s/ in certain loans,
> > e.g. _Cidre, Cedille, City_, but certainly not in _Sex_ (which to me is
> > homophonous to _sechs_ "six"), but now that you mention it I think I
> > remember I've heard this pronunciation on the media from Germany.
>
> Don't blame me, blame my German teacher (a native of East Berlin), who pointed
> it out to me! :)
>
> I know it's a bit "bad", since the [sEks] pronunciation is far from universal
> -
> indeed, if ordering in the Duden is of significance, [zEks] would appear to be
> the commoner pronuncation -
I don't think so (but this is of course limited to my experience) --
most Germans I know say [sEks] and thus it is a perfect minimal pair
with |sechs| [zEks].
There is also |Szene|, which was once mentioned on the list, but it
has a cluster at the beginning that varies a lot more. I have
['stse:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ ['s:e:[EMAIL PROTECTED], but [ts] and [s] seem to be
widespread, too.
(So for many, it is homophonous with |Zähne| (i.e., ['tse:[EMAIL PROTECTED]),
since
the /E:/ ~ /e:/ contrast is not retained by all speakers (for me, it
is ['tsE:[EMAIL PROTECTED])). At least, it is a word that surely has no
initial [z]
and thus, it is a minimal pair with |Sehne| [ze:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Other early (English) loans with initial [s] would be
|Scanner| ['skEn6]
or all with
|Self...| [sElf...]
and |Soft...| [sOft...]
and |surf...| [s96f...]
and |Set| [sEt]
and |Setting| ['sEtIN].
(Although I've heard [zEt] and less frequently ['zEtIN].)
But, of course, the vast majority of loans uses [z] for initial |s|,
as in |simpel| ['zImpl=] and so many others.
> I notice that Duden gives [sEnt] as the only pronuncation of
> _Cent_. I've always been saying [tsEnt],
Right. I feel both are equally common.
**Henrik
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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:04:58 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon) wrote:
> Earlier I wrote in response to Tristan:
>
>> Also your very low vowel in "storm".
>
>
> Dammit, I meant _very closed vowel_. I can never get used to "low"
> meaning "open". It always trips me up.
>
>
>
> Joe wrote:
>
>> http://joe.thehilltribe.com/vowels.wav
>>
>> Mostly, as far as I can tell, it follows the general pattern in young
>> people's RP of monophthonisation.
>
>
> I note without surprise that in at least two particulars, it's more
> like Tristan's than mine. Firstly, there's the monophthogonal 'stare',
> and secondly there's the back-vowel pronunciation of 'tourist',
> although Joe goes further than Tristan in also having back vowels in
> the other three words to match it.
[O:], for |our|, |ore| and |ure|, for me. I have [E:] for most of what
is usually cited in RP as [EMAIL PROTECTED], and [I:] for [EMAIL PROTECTED],
fairly frequently
(though by no means universally. Also, 'our'(the word) is [A:], which
is actually opposed to 'hour', which is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To me, both of these particulars are markers of Britishness, and I
> have always regarded them as such.
>
> On the other hand, there is at least one particular in which Joe's
> pronunciation is more like mine than Tristan's. Out of the three of
> us, Tristan's "stood" is the most back, Joe's is the most front, and
> mine is somewhere in between. This is definitely a British marker, so
> my pronunciation of "stood" is certainly a little more British-like
> than Tristan's.
>
Yes, however, only southern-British. Northern English and Scottish
dialects frequently have [u], where I have [U] (including my stepfather).
>
> * Consonant wise, the main difference is that the 't' on the end of
> 'stout' is much more aspirated.
>
The only one that surprises me is this one.
> Those are all of the ones I notice easily; there are others but I have
> to listen harder to discern them. Also, Joe, do you have a cold? Your
> nose sounds blocked.
Well heard. Yes, I'm currently recovering from a cold.
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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:24:45 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names and Mensa
Sally Caves wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shaul Vardi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > You guys should consider yourselves lucky - you're naming your Conlangs
> > now as [presumably] sane adults. I named my Conlang when I was 14,
> > building my language during dull moments in math classes... The result
> > is (pretty embarrasingly) that my Conlang has ever since born the name
> > Tesk. Why? (*Blush*) Because I saw the Conlang as a manifestation of
> > my intelligence [bear in mind that I thought I was the only person in
> > the world doing this]; intelligence led me to the organization Mensa
> > [NOT a road I'd go down today]; mensa = table; and table in my Conlang
> > is tesk.
>
> This is really very funny, Shaul! :) It's enlightening to understand the
> processes of association we go through. "Tesk," too, reminds me of
> "desk."
> I don't know if you were thinking in terms of English then (I assume you
> are
> multilingual), but I wonder if sitting at your desk in math class you
> chose
> a name for table that subliminally reminded you of "desk" in English.
That struck me, too. But actually I don't find "Tesk" at all "bad"; au
contraire it's quite good. IIRC there's an Albanian dialect called Tosk.
Certainly no worse than "Kash", which is supposed to be derived < kayi
'living, alive' by an irregular process that isn't found anywhere else in
the language (as so far known).
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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:10:49 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in the movies
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodlox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> what about Krakozhian from the movie _The Terminal_? was that a real
> language, or did they invent it? *curious*
I can't seem to find an answer to that on the web, or in any of the online
reviews of the movie, and I don't know enough about Slavic languages. I had
thought that Hanks had learned some form of Russian or Ukrainian--I think
the magazine he was looking at featured the cyrillic alphabet--especially
for the exchange he has with the man trying to smuggle in drugs for his
dying father.
I don't think they "invented" a language for him; that would have been too
much work. It's easier just to get a real Ukrainian to coach him in the
language and the accent. In the credits, it gives the name of Tom Hank's
"dialect coach."
If someone knows differently, let me know!
Sally
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:32:07 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Glossopoeia. Language invention.
>
> I'd say the problem with that one is that is might scare away
> the person that reads it. I doubt it's well-known. And when
> looking it up, they find 'language invention'. And then they
> might think: 'So, that li'l chap wanted to sound smart.'
>
> No, I would not use that.
>
Agreed. How about (along with "English"), include "linguistics and language
invention"?? That leaves it up to the reader/interviewer to decide whether
you mean conlangs or computer languages....:-)
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:50:37 +0000
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
It seems really strange to me that s is always voiced at the start of
words... how did this arise? I could understand it if (since I'm
assuming that originally german had no contrast between [s] and [z]) s
was always [z] intervocally, but.. I don't know, I'd just really like to
know how it became voiced at the start of all native german words.
A similar funny thing is basque: the number of words that start with
voiced stops seems to vastly outnumber those that start with unvoiced
stops. And most of the ones I can think of that do begin with unvoiced
stops begin with k. I wonder why....
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Message: 24
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:20:37 +0200
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names and Mensa
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sally Caves
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 7:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: conlang names and Mensa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaul Vardi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> You guys should consider yourselves lucky - you're naming your
> Conlangs now as [presumably] sane adults. I named my Conlang when I
> was 14, building my language during dull moments in math classes...
> The result is (pretty embarrasingly) that my Conlang has ever since
> born the name Tesk. Why? (*Blush*) Because I saw the Conlang as a
> manifestation of my intelligence [bear in mind that I thought I was
> the only person in the world doing this]; intelligence led me to the
> organization Mensa [NOT a road I'd go down today]; mensa = table; and
> table in my Conlang is tesk.
>
> Happy naming!
This is really very funny, Shaul! :) It's enlightening to understand
the processes of association we go through. "Tesk," too, reminds me of
"desk." I don't know if you were thinking in terms of English then (I
assume you are multilingual), but I wonder if sitting at your desk in
math class you chose a name for table that subliminally reminded you of
"desk" in English.
That's a very interesting idea. I was thinking predominantly in English
(I grew up in Sheffield), maybe you're right. Since Tesk is a
derivative Conlang, and at the time was based mainly on German, Hebrew
and Dutch, "Tesk" anyway is obviously etymologically related to desk,
Tisch etc.
Teonaht comes from my need to find a name that reminded me of the
orient, of "Siam," which is what we called Thailand back in the fifties
(or at least I thought so; I was very influenced by the movie "The King
and I"). Siam was so lovely, so exotic, but I couldn't just copy it.
So I thought up Teon, with the emphasis on the |o|. It should really be
spelled Teoon in Teonaht, but that was before I had devised the double
letter signal for emphasis. Then it became "Teonean," as in Roumanian,
Baviarian, etc., variously spelled Teonyan, Taonean, etc. When I hit on
the -ath adjectival ending, then it became Teonath. When I decided to
reverse the letters in the Roman version of Teonaht writing, it became
the word it is today.
Teonaht is a lovely name - it sounds a little like a Berber dialect.
Back to "mensa." Mensa can also mean "meal," and as a deponent (mensa
est) "measured," "distributed," "estimated," and "traversed" (metior,
metiri, mensus sum). The organization Mensa may take its name from
"table," as in "round table," but it also has the coy suggestion in it
of mens, "mentality." It was never an organization I was interested in
joining, since at the time I had (and still do) a high contempt for IQ
tests and what they "measure," which I think is pretty limited, and
doesn't guarantee you success or happiness. And so did my mother, who
felt that assigning a number to someone's intelligence could either
hamper their productivity and/or make them so insufferable and cocky no
one could live with them. :)
Absolutely, I completely agree and that's part of why the whole Tesk
story embarrasses me a bit.
[snip]
Sally
Kabirr pax mis qytsut
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 25
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:19:19 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Asha'ille site update
On Thu, Dec 09, 2004 at 12:33:49PM -0800, Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> Emaelivpeith H. S. Teoh:
> > Isn't there a way in CSS to specify relative positions rather than
> > absolute positions? E.g., something along the lines of "place this
> > element at 50% across the browser window".
>
> That may have worked, but hopefully the new tabular layout will work
> better for everyone. (It looks a lot like your Tatari Faran page now,
> actually. ;)
Nice. Only, some of them appear rather odd, e.g. the entry for
_cátuth kefáln_ has a very large gap between "n." and "Terran". This
symptom seems to afflict all sub-entries.
Incidentally, the TF lexicon page (including the search result pages)
use a table to layout the various fields. :-)
> I've also added subentries and multiple senses to the detailed
> dictionary. That's just about all the data I have in my source data
> file, so I'm almost done (except for any further fiddling).
Cool.
> > Cool. Although, shouldn't that come after the phonetic inventory page?
> > It'd kinda make sense if you said what the phonetic inventory was
> > before saying how to transcribe it. :-)
>
> Good point. Done. Thank you for the feedback!
kachera. :-)
Completely irrelevant note: could it be possible that _kunúth_ is
derived from "Knuth"? ;-)
T
--
In a world without fences, who needs Windows and Gates? -- Christian Surchi
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