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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Germanic links
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: conlang names
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: conlang names
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: conlang names
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: conlang names and Mensa
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: conlang names
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Nonsense Words
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: conlang names
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: German style orthography
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. OT: FWIW: University Exploration Days
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Babel Text in Xinkutlan
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. OT: Of Angles and Saxons
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: OT: Of Angles and Saxons
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Babel Text in Xinkutlan
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Nonsense Words
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Conlanging with Dick and Jane
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 00:47:49 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henrik Theiling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hi!
>
> Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>...
>> For the 1,000,001st time, what would you call "conlanging" in
>> application forms?
>
> I'd call it 'interest in grammar theory'. :-P
>
> For the creativity part, I'd then paraphrase it a bit so that it
> does not sound profane:
Profane? Profane? :) So there are sacred and profane ways of filling out
forms in German? I thought so.
> E.g. 'Entwurf von Sprachen zur Erforschung der grammatischen
> Grundlagen in verschiedensten Sprachfamilien.'
And then Heinrik says:
> Hi!
Hi!
Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Glossopoeia. Language invention.
>
> I'd say the problem with that one is that is might scare away
> the person that reads it. I doubt it's well-known. And when
> looking it up, they find 'language invention'. And then they
> might think: 'So, that li'l chap wanted to sound smart.'
>
> No, I would not use that.
Okay, then why not Geheimsprache? :) :)
von der Wiege bis zur Bahre,
Formulare, Formulare.
:)
S.
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 01:30:58 -0500
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Conlanging in application forms?
Carsten Becker ha tera a:
>For the 1,000,001st time, what would you call "conlanging" in
application forms.
I've called it "creative linguistics", ordering it after, "creative
writing" in my list of hobbies.
-Estel
______________________________________________________
F� den nye Yahoo! Messenger p� http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/
Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt s� morsom
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 01:42:09 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Germanic links
Very interesting selection, perhaps of some use to germaniconlangers, if
they don't already know it:
http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/linkspage.htm
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:15:01 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:13, # 1 wrote:
> I've started my first conlang but I encountered a problem: the name
>
>
> What do you take as names?
I've always made my conlangs as part of an SF conworld. For two reasons, to
justify the names, and to give background.
Consequently, the names are generally related to salient features of the
concultures. Vheratsho's people the Lakhabrech call themselves the Free
Blood, ergo they speak the Free Speech. Praleyo's unpretentious people call
themselves the Fisheaters, ergo they speak the local Coastal Language; etc.
>
> It is logic when you call it by the name of the imaginary people who speak
> it but I don't have any history about my conlang.
>
>
> There is also the possibility to call it with one of the words of tha
> language like "esperanto" but for me I don't know wich one take and if I
> make a bad choice I would consider it as a lack of originality...
Use the word "no" in translation. that's got a long history of use among
linguists - for example, I speak the northern european language No, as
opposed to the southern european/western mediterranean language No; both of
which are different from but related to the northern european language Non,
and the middle european language Nein which is however related to the
northern european language No. No is however related to Ekkert, which is not
related to Ei, another language spoken in Scandinavia.
No (southern european) is closely related to Nao, also a southern
european/western mediterranean language. Neither of these is related to La
or Lo', both of which played a major role in its eflorescence of culture
during the middle ages. La shares a common script with Nakheyr and Nahi; it
used to share a common script with Degil, but Kemil Ataturk changed that. In
the meantime Nahi is very closely related to Nahi, but doesn't share the same
script.
Anyone tell me what languages I'm referring to?
>
>
> Where do you take your ideas for your conlang names?
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:38:49 +0200
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names
Here's a nice challenge for Saturday morning...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wesley Parish
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 9:15 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: conlang names
>
>
> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:13, # 1 wrote:
> > I've started my first conlang but I encountered a problem: the name
> >
> >
[snip]
> Use the word "no" in translation. that's got a long history
> of use among linguists - for example, I speak the northern
> european language No
English
, as opposed to the southern
> european/western mediterranean language No;
Spanish
both of which are
> different from but related to the northern european language
> Non
French
, and the middle european language Nein
German
which is however
> related to the northern european language No.
English again
No is however
> related to Ekkert,
Icelandic
which is not related to Ei, another
> language spoken in Scandinavia.
Finnish
> No (southern european) is closely related to Nao, also a
> southern european/western mediterranean language.
Portuguese
Neither of
> these is related to La
Arabic
or Lo',
Hebrew
both of which played a major
> role in its eflorescence of culture during the middle ages.
> La shares a common script with Nakheyr
Farsi
and Nahi;
Not quite sure, but is it Urdu?
it used to
> share a common script with Degil
Turkish
, but Kemil Ataturk changed
> that. In the meantime Nahi is very closely related to Nahi,
> but doesn't share the same script.
So if I'm right about Urdu, I guess Hindi.
>
> Anyone tell me what languages I'm referring to?
> >
> --
> Wesley Parish
> * * *
> Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
> * * *
> Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
> You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
> Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
> I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:30:55 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names
Quoting Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> which is not related to Ei, another
> > language spoken in Scandinavia.
> Finnish
"No" is _ei_ in Finnish? That's a bit close to Swedish _ej_ "not" for comfort
...
Andreas
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 00:34:18 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names and Mensa
On Fri, Dec 10, 2004 at 08:12:28PM -0800, Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> Emaelivpeith Ph. D.:
> > At that age, boys
> > often are interested in ciphers and secret writing. (Do many girls
> > do that? I don't remember any doing so.)
>
> In fourth grade, my best friend and I made up a cipher (actually, I
> made it up and taught it to her). I took each English captial letter,
> split it in half vertically, and reversed the ordering of the two
> halves. We wrote notes to each other in it, without fear of classmates
> or teachers reading them. I called the cipher "Doc," which is the word
> "code" reversed, minus the E.
=-O =-O =-O
This was EXACTLY how I arrived at my first conscript/cipher. Except
that after reversing the halves, I extended some lines and tweaked
some strokes to make the letters easier to write/distinguish between
lookalikes. I wouldn't be surprised if it even looked the same.
Perhaps it's even mutually intelligible! :-) (Unfortunately, I've
long since forgotten it, so we can't do a comparison anymore.)
Is this _tikleisha_ or what! :-)
> By fifth grade, I realized Doc wasn't so great, so I mangled each Doc
> character a bit farther from its origins and called the new cipher
> Weird. My cousin learned it and we wrote letters to one another for a
> summer.
[...]
Heh. I had no one to write the cipher to, so it ended up being used
for writing sooper sekrit computer game solutions that I discovered on
my own and other such boyhood things. :-P (Yup, back in the days when
I was a gamer.)
T
--
Notwithstanding the eloquent discontent that you have just respectfully
expressed at length against my verbal capabilities, I am afraid that I must
unfortunately bring it to your attention that I am, in fact, NOT verbose.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:31:00 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:38, Shaul Vardi wrote:
> Here's a nice challenge for Saturday morning...
And you got it right! Do you like Guinness? If you do and we're ever in the
same town, it's my shout!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wesley Parish
> > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 9:15 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: conlang names
> >
> > On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:13, # 1 wrote:
> > > I've started my first conlang but I encountered a problem: the name
>
> [snip]
>
> > Use the word "no" in translation. that's got a long history
> > of use among linguists - for example, I speak the northern
> > european language No
>
> English
>
> , as opposed to the southern
>
> > european/western mediterranean language No;
>
> Spanish
>
> both of which are
>
> > different from but related to the northern european language
> > Non
>
> French
>
> , and the middle european language Nein
> German
>
> which is however
>
> > related to the northern european language No.
>
> English again
>
> No is however
>
> > related to Ekkert,
>
> Icelandic
>
> which is not related to Ei, another
>
> > language spoken in Scandinavia.
>
> Finnish
>
> > No (southern european) is closely related to Nao, also a
> > southern european/western mediterranean language.
>
> Portuguese
>
> Neither of
>
> > these is related to La
>
> Arabic
>
> or Lo',
> Hebrew
>
> both of which played a major
>
> > role in its eflorescence of culture during the middle ages.
> > La shares a common script with Nakheyr
>
> Farsi
>
> and Nahi;
> Not quite sure, but is it Urdu?
Yes.
>
> it used to
>
> > share a common script with Degil
>
> Turkish
>
> , but Kemil Ataturk changed
>
> > that. In the meantime Nahi is very closely related to Nahi,
> > but doesn't share the same script.
>
> So if I'm right about Urdu, I guess Hindi.
Yes.
>
> > Anyone tell me what languages I'm referring to?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Wesley Parish
> > * * *
> > Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
> > * * *
> > Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
> > You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
> > Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
> > I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:58:27 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:05:39 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:10:19 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>wrote:
>
>
>>>Not all dialects of a language need to be mutually intellegible. Most
>>>linguists consider the Bavarians to speak German, though I don't doubt
>>>that some linguists may consider the Bavarians not to belong to the German
>>>speaking world.
>>>
>>>
>>What makes out a dialect is that it only varies slightly from the main
>>language, so it can be understood without much problems by all speakers of
>>the main language.
>>Once a dialect has changed so tremendously from the main language that it
>>is totally unintelligible to speakers of the main language (as is the case
>>with Bavarian), it has become a proper language of its own.
>>
>>
>
>There may be some linguists who share that point of view, but most will
>consider other factors as well, such as standard language, literature,
>media, etc.
>
>
I think the primary deciding factor is what you answer when people ask
what your first language is.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 04:40:59 -0600
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
John Cowan wrote:
> Furriners (broadly considered) never hear regional accents properly,
> anyway. I know some varieties of Cultivated sound somewhat British
> (every time I see Nick Nicholas, he sounds more RP-ish to my ear),
Me too. A couple weeks ago when I was at the Algonquian conference,
I met a guy who works on Sauk (one of the dialects of the Meskwaki-
Sauk-Kickapoo continuum) who, I assumed, was probably a Briton who'd
lived in the US for a while -- reasonable given his area of specialization.
Turns out he's actually an Australian who works in Germany. I only
found this out when we got into a conversation about English second
person plural pronouns, such as my native <y'all>, and he said that
for Australians like him <youse> is the norm. (Somehow, I doubt,
based on almost no empirical evidence whatsoever, that <youse> is as
normal for most Ozzies as <y'all> is for most Southrons.)
> but I'm always flabbergasted when other Americans can't tell Broad from RP!
Same here. Though until this summer, I always had difficulty distinguishing
different antipodean dialects. I was set right by a young New Zealander
whose talk at a conference in Berlin I did not immediately identify as
being in English!
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:16:44 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
----- Original Message -----
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: partial letter replacement in languages?
> On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 05:05 , Rodlox wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >
> > what I meant was, such as ->
> >
> > /Murad/ becomes /Murat/ *
> > ..yet...
> > /Abdulhamid/ does not become /Abtulhamid/
> The Murad who was a student of mine last year never became a Murat at any
> time :)
my apologies, then.
I've been reading history books published in various countries, and I had
noticed the d->t shift (such as Murad/Murat) in, at least, the Turkish
Republic.
I did not mean to imply that it was true for all Turkic or Arabic
languages...my apologies if I accidentally gave the impression that is was
true.
> In any case I would hardly expect /bd/ (two voiced plosive) to change to
> /bt/ (but I would expect /bt/ to be assimilated to /bd/).
ah.
if I might ask, what is /bt/ that is could be assimilated, whereas /bd/ (a
voiced plosive) could not? *curious*
> With final plosives it is quite common for the distinction between voiced
> & voiceless to be neutralized. Most commonly, as in German, Russian,
> Breton and IIRC Turkish, they are all devoiced. Some languages, like
Welsh,
> prefer voicing the whole like.
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 02:54:50 -0800
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Nonsense Words
In getting my computerized lexicon up-to-date (I've past 900 words
online now!), I came across my half-finished translation of
Jabberwocky. I'm having a minor crisis deciding whether the "nonsense"
words belong in my lexicon. At the very least, I'll need to document
these words *somewhere*, just to make sure I don't coin "real" words
and make them non-nonsense, but I don't know that they belong in the
official dictionary.
Has anyone else dealt with this? Opinions?
--
AA
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:20:32 +0200
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: conlang names
No, despite my origins in northern England I can't stand the stuff.
Lager or vodka, please.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wesley Parish
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:31 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: conlang names
>
>
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:38, Shaul Vardi wrote:
> > Here's a nice challenge for Saturday morning...
>
> And you got it right! Do you like Guinness? If you do and
> we're ever in the same town, it's my shout!
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Constructed Languages List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > On Behalf Of Wesley Parish
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 9:15 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: conlang names
> > >
> > > On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:13, # 1 wrote:
> > > > I've started my first conlang but I encountered a problem: the
> > > > name
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > Use the word "no" in translation. that's got a long
> history of use
> > > among linguists - for example, I speak the northern european
> > > language No
> >
> > English
> >
> > , as opposed to the southern
> >
> > > european/western mediterranean language No;
> >
> > Spanish
> >
> > both of which are
> >
> > > different from but related to the northern european language Non
> >
> > French
> >
> > , and the middle european language Nein
> > German
> >
> > which is however
> >
> > > related to the northern european language No.
> >
> > English again
> >
> > No is however
> >
> > > related to Ekkert,
> >
> > Icelandic
> >
> > which is not related to Ei, another
> >
> > > language spoken in Scandinavia.
> >
> > Finnish
> >
> > > No (southern european) is closely related to Nao, also a southern
> > > european/western mediterranean language.
> >
> > Portuguese
> >
> > Neither of
> >
> > > these is related to La
> >
> > Arabic
> >
> > or Lo',
> > Hebrew
> >
> > both of which played a major
> >
> > > role in its eflorescence of culture during the middle ages. La
> > > shares a common script with Nakheyr
> >
> > Farsi
> >
> > and Nahi;
> > Not quite sure, but is it Urdu?
> Yes.
> >
> > it used to
> >
> > > share a common script with Degil
> >
> > Turkish
> >
> > , but Kemil Ataturk changed
> >
> > > that. In the meantime Nahi is very closely related to Nahi, but
> > > doesn't share the same script.
> >
> > So if I'm right about Urdu, I guess Hindi.
> Yes.
> >
> > > Anyone tell me what languages I'm referring to?
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Wesley Parish
> > > * * *
> > > Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
> > > * * *
> > > Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
> > > You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
> > > Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
> > > I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
>
> --
> Wesley Parish
> * * *
> Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
> * * *
> Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
> You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
> Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
> I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:38:52 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
On 11 Dec 2004, at 1.33 am, Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)
wrote:
> How do you like this? http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/say/vowels.htm
Not very much there yet :) Also, there's something about the
colorscheme I don't like, but I spose it's meant to be green and gold?
But otherwise it's okay, I don't think there's much to comment on.
> In the future I may add quotes from this very discussion, in order to
> give people an idea of what to listen for. But are there any more
> parenthical notes you would like to be added now?
Nah, can't really think of anything not already said...
> I can only pick the most subtle of differences. Not enough to be
> remarkable. There would probably be more difference in a sentence
> where "our" was stressed, such as: "Their main concern is to save the
> country whereas our main concern is to save the world".
As Joe observes, one our is similar and one's different. Perhaps I'm
listening to one and you the other?
> John Cowan wrote:
>
>> Furriners (broadly considered) never hear regional accents properly,
>> anyway.
>> I know some varieties of Cultivated sound somewhat British (every
>> time I
>> see Nick Nicholas, he sounds more RP-ish to my ear), but I'm always
>> flabbergasted when other Americans can't tell Broad from RP!
>
> I think of my speech as being the same accent as most of my peers,
> with obviously a few idiolectal variations as everybody has. My
> considered opinion is that my speech is definitely within the spectrum
> of General Australian, whatever Tristan might say. :-) :-)
General South Australian maybe, but Melburnians have a better claim to
Australia than Adelaideans!
> There's an old joke (sourced in the old TV series GNW) that a "Downer"
> is defined as a vague feeling of depression when forced to admit one's
> nationality whilst overseas.
Downer's been around long enough to have old jokes? God am I glad i
didn't know what politics was till 2000...
On 11 Dec 2004, at 9.40 pm, Thomas R. Wier wrote:
> Me too. A couple weeks ago when I was at the Algonquian conference,
> I met a guy who works on Sauk (one of the dialects of the Meskwaki-
> Sauk-Kickapoo continuum) who, I assumed, was probably a Briton who'd
> lived in the US for a while -- reasonable given his area of
> specialization.
> Turns out he's actually an Australian who works in Germany. I only
> found this out when we got into a conversation about English second
> person plural pronouns, such as my native <y'all>, and he said that
> for Australians like him <youse> is the norm. (Somehow, I doubt,
> based on almost no empirical evidence whatsoever, that <youse> is as
> normal for most Ozzies as <y'all> is for most Southrons.)
My impression is the same, though in some cases I'm beginning to feel
almost obliged to say 'youse' (always in unstressed syllables, usually
when goodbying multiple people---'cyas later' instead of 'cya later').
But _y'all_ is definitely not something any Aussie uses except when
making fun of Americans or similar. _Y'all_, like <Ozzy>/<Ozzie>, is a
particular marker of Americanness.
>> but I'm always flabbergasted when other Americans can't tell Broad
>> from RP!
>
> Same here. Though until this summer, I always had difficulty
> distinguishing
> different antipodean dialects. I was set right by a young New Zealander
> whose talk at a conference in Berlin I did not immediately identify as
> being in English!
Ut wasn't. Kiwis talk Unglush, not English :)
--
Tristan.
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 08:31:49 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
I've just discovered a post of mine that was rejected two days ago. Sorry
for the delay (and for the off-topicity).
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:50:28 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>That's not correct. There is *no* distinction made for being word-initial.
>The distinctions made are "s before vowel" (which is always /z/), "s before
>consonant except p, t" (which is always /s/) and "s before p, t" (which is
>always /S/). All of this regardless of position in the word.
Funny, I've always thought that the Alemannic were the only who pronounce
the words _Ast_ "bough" and _Espe_ "aspen tree" with /St/ and /Sp/! Are you
sure that you don't have some kind of Alemannic accent? This would also make
your distinction of short and long consonants much more plausible to me.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:03:05 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: FWIW: University Exploration Days
Hey all!
Recently in school, we got leaflets about the
"Hochschulerkundungstage" (University Exploration Days) in
Gie�en from our form master. There, 12th and 13th graders
can gather information about different courses at
university and for which occupations you (can) need
studying these subjects etc. etc.
Although at the moment it does not seem like I will go to
university, I think it's nevertheless worth to have a look
at Anglistics and Computerlinguistics (both on 27 Jan
2005). What would also be intersting is
"Medieninformatik" (Media Informatics?), which includes
media design. It's interesting although I've got a
red/green disorder (I cannot see red on green and vice
versa when both colours have the same or a similar amount
of contrast. Seeing each colour itself is no problem).
Maybe there's nevertheless a chance for colourblinds to
work in this business ...
As a possible occupation I have "Verlagskaufmann" or
something like that in my mind, though. Working in a
publishing house seemed interesting as well when I had a
two-weeks' job experience in March/April 2004.
Heck, I'll be finished with school in 1 1/2 years, so I must
care about what I do after school now -- but OTOH, it's
still so long until I'm ready with school that I often
forget about what comes afterwards.
Carsten
--
Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:07:59 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
Joe scripsit:
> I think the primary deciding factor is what you answer when people ask
> what your first language is.
I think not, not in general. The Indic-speaking part of India is a vast
dialect continuum, where "languages" exist only as a result of regional
standardization. A person from the Punjab may move to Delhi; at first
the language will be difficult, because there are sharp differences
(particularly in morphophonemic rules), but after a time he may
accommodate his Punjabi arbitrarily close to Hindi, while still retaining
a few conspicuous markers of Punjabi, just to make it clear that while
what he is speaking *sounds* like Hindi, it is "in fact" still Punjabi.
Yet a sociolinguistically naive linguist would surely call it Hindi.
Similarly, a person living near the boundary may speak a language that
is somewhat closer to standard Punjabi than to standard Hindi, and yet
he may say that his language is Hindi, meaning that he associates
himself with the higher prestige of Hindi, and that if he or his children
were to be educated, he would wish it to be through the medium of
standard Hindi.
(These examples from Robbins Burling's _Man and his language_, which I
have cited here before.)
--
Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes.
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:40:10 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Babel Text in Xinkutlan
On Dec 10, 2004, at 9:08 PM, J Y S Czhang wrote:
> wowza, man.
> or as they say in Terapang (futuristic pidgin Pan-English): ouza, mon.
hey!
how do they say "welcome back" in Terapang? ;)
-Stephen (Steg)
"i am the terror that flaps in the night."
~ darkwing duck
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:27:17 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Of Angles and Saxons
I recently ran across the claim that no Anglo-Saxons called themselves 'Saxons'
before the Conquest - that is was strictly an exonym - but all considered
themselves Angles/English. The names of kingdoms and regions containing "Sax" -
Wessex, Sussex, Essex, Middlesex - supposedly all postdate the Conquest, and
were introduced by the Normans (leaving one to wonder what the kings of Wessex
and so on called their kingdoms).
I find this more than a little difficult to believe, but couldn't find any
explicit denial in any book I've got easy access to. Anyone into these matters
feel like commenting?
Andreas
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Message: 20
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:56:01 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Of Angles and Saxons
Andreas Johansson wrote:
>I recently ran across the claim that no Anglo-Saxons called themselves 'Saxons'
>before the Conquest - that is was strictly an exonym - but all considered
>themselves Angles/English. The names of kingdoms and regions containing "Sax" -
>Wessex, Sussex, Essex, Middlesex - supposedly all postdate the Conquest, and
>were introduced by the Normans (leaving one to wonder what the kings of Wessex
>and so on called their kingdoms).
>
>I find this more than a little difficult to believe, but couldn't find any
>explicit denial in any book I've got easy access to. Anyone into these matters
>feel like commenting?
>
>
>
Nope. The Anglo-Saxon chronicle explicitly refers to Wessex several
times (probably the rest, too, but yeah). But, for some reason, the
Saxons still spoke Englisc.
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:12:41 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon) scripsit:
> I know of a couple of phenomenon which could arguably be held as
> examples of this, but as a generalisation it is new to me. Do you
> mind elaborating?
I think it's a fair characterization of a variety of English in which
"cup" has [a], "carp" has [a:], and "coop" has something like [u\].
--
John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mr. Henry James writes fiction as if it were a painful duty. --Oscar Wilde
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 03:44:34 +1030
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
[Firstly: I really appreciate the input of those people who have
commented on the phonetic samples provided. It is very interesting to
hear the perceptions of non-locals on this sort of thing.]
Tristan Mc Leay wrote, quoting myself:
> > I can only pick the most subtle of differences. Not enough to be
> > remarkable. There would probably be more difference in a sentence
> > where "our" was stressed, such as: "Their main concern is to save the
> > country whereas our main concern is to save the world".
>
> As Joe observes, one our is similar and one's different. Perhaps I'm
> listening to one and you the other?
They're both clearly diphthogonal, beginning with an approximately
front-open vowel and heading towards an approximately back-open vowel.
I'd transcribe the first as [&6] and the second as [&V]. I think. But
I welcome second opinions.
Your realisation and mine are both diphthogonal, both begin at
approximately the same point, and both end with a back (or non-front)
vowel of some description. Thus, there is only a subtle difference to
my ear. As I said, a context in which "our" receives sentence-level
stress would be required for better differentiation.
My theory about "our" is basically this.
The word "hour" I would transcribe as /&o)@/ and at a certain deep
level the word "our" is the same as "hour". However, the word "our"
has evolved a fusing of the /@/ with the end of the preceding /&o/, to
create the observed [&V] or [&6].
My opinion is that in the case of "our" a new phoneme /&V/ (I could
have arbitrarily chosen /&6/) has evolved from a simplification of
/&U)@/.
> > I think of my speech as being the same accent as most of my peers,
> > with obviously a few idiolectal variations as everybody has. My
> > considered opinion is that my speech is definitely within the spectrum
> > of General Australian, whatever Tristan might say. :-) :-)
>
> General South Australian maybe, but Melburnians have a better claim to
> Australia than Adelaideans!
Last night I emailed Melbournian relatives of mine in the hope of
getting a second opinion; they haven't responded yet but I hope they
do. I can't think of a witty rejoinder to the "better claim" claim
right now.
Adrian.
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Message: 23
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:16:41 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Babel Text in Xinkutlan
On Sat, Dec 11, 2004 at 06:40:10PM +0200, Steg Belsky wrote:
> On Dec 10, 2004, at 9:08 PM, J Y S Czhang wrote:
> >wowza, man.
> >or as they say in Terapang (futuristic pidgin Pan-English): ouza, mon.
Hanuman tse! sii ipai tse sa mubun nara? :-)
> hey!
> how do they say "welcome back" in Terapang? ;)
[...]
I wanna know too. :-)
T
--
Life would be easier if I had the source code. -- YHL
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Message: 24
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:20:03 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Nonsense Words
Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> In getting my computerized lexicon up-to-date (I've past 900 words
> online now!), I came across my half-finished translation of
> Jabberwocky. I'm having a minor crisis deciding whether the "nonsense"
> words belong in my lexicon. At the very least, I'll need to document
> these words *somewhere*, just to make sure I don't coin "real" words
> and make them non-nonsense, but I don't know that they belong in the
> official dictionary.
>
> Has anyone else dealt with this? Opinions?
>
Jabberwocky of course is a special case, but....
My thought would be (1) to put them in a separate section-- perhaps for
loanwords used only in specific contexts (??) or (2) leave them out, but
keep a private list in a file somewhere.
I suppose in translating Jabberwocky, you used native (Asha'ille) resources
to create the nonsense. Some of the portmanteau words could certainly be
compounds of native elements, and explicable. But what native words could
underlie "toves", or "mome raths outgrabe" etc. We aren't even sure what
they mean in "English". These would indeed be nonsense created for...what?
just to sound funny? to fit the metre? to match the rhyme? Unless there's a
native tradition of nonsense poetry, IMO they don't belong in the
dictionary. (Are J. words in any English dictionary? ...not in my Shorter
OED...)
The Kash dictionary has no loanwords from English, and only a couple from
the "Galactic" language-- that's because in _that_ version of the story, the
Gal.Union contacted the Cindu 200+years ago, and has not yet contacted
Earth. An earlier version had the GU (including Terra) contacting the Kash
in about 2400 C.E., but there was only one Terran on Cindu, so he did not
contribute any loanwords either. Yet another version had the GU contacting
Terra around 1985 (or 1995, or 2000, depending on how often I update the
fantasy...) and sending us a First Contact Emissary who happens to be a
Kash. He, strictly for his own use, adopts various Terran words into his
vocab.-- so far mainly foodstuffs and (thanks to recent threads) religious
terms-- but none of these, I suspect, will ever make it into the official
dictionary in my lifetime. (BTW he prefers to adapt them from Spanish,
usually, since the phonology most closely matches that of Kash.)
Native Kash or Gwr nonsense poetry, OTOH, is something to think about
:-)))))
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Message: 25
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:35:36 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlanging with Dick and Jane
Hidy ho.
Returning after an absence of 6 or 8 months from
conlanging, I naturally I looked back at my several
unfinished conlang projects to decide where to pick up
the pieces. Of course the only sane solution is to
scrap everything and start all over from scratch. But
I hated to do that knowing that I'm going to make the
same mistakes and end up with yet another incomplete
and uncompletable conlang fragment. That's when
inspiration hit and a possible solution to systematic
conlang discovery occurred to me.
In the past my conlangs have suffered from haphazard
development and ultimately became so unbalanced they
had to be abandoned. By unbalanced I mean too much
grammar early on and not enough vocabulary to
adequately test and use that grammar, or too much
vocabulary and not enough grammar to put that
vocabulary to use.
The other problem has been designing myself into a
corner, so to speak, where I would include some
sophisticated grammatical notion before I had adequate
understanding of the fundamental grammar to support
it. Then later, when filling in the more fundamental
aspects of the grammar I would discover that my fancy
piece of sophistication just didn't work, or didn't
fit with the very most basic grammatical principles.
The same problem cropped up in the lexicon where I
would end up with "advanced" or complex words
discovered before the most basic vocabulary is filled
out, often leaving them to become awkward misfits
later on.
The solution occurred to me when I was sorting through
some boxes of old books and came across a handful of
children's early readers. Suppose one took a first
year reader like "Fun With Dick and Jane" or
"McGuffey's Eclectic Reader" and began on page one
with "See Spot run." and "The cat sees the mouse." and
translated the entire book, sentence by sentence, into
the new conlang, discovering vocabulary and
grammatical principles as they were needed.
After discovering translations for the few hundred
sentences in the first year reader one would be ready
to move on to the second year reader with a good
balance between vocabulary and grammar and a logical
progression in the sophistication of both. By the time
the fifth or sixth year reader was translated the
conlang would be rich enough in both grammar and
vocabulary to be used in everyday conversation.
The other benefit, at least from my point of view, is
the built-in disciplined nature of the work. Each time
one sits down to work on the conlang one knows exactly
what one needs to do. For example, having completed
page 11, to turn to page 12 and discover the
translation for "One, two, three," said Jane. "Three
new dolls for my birthday. ... Now I have a big doll
family."...
And finally, by working with the conlang beginning at
such an elementary level it is likely that one
by-product would be for the designer to develop actual
fluency in the conlang as the work progressed.
How exciting to know that something new will be
discovered every day!
Thoughts? Ideas?
--gary shannon
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