------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/TzSHvD/SOnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: THEORY: French and polypersonalism (was: THEORY: Ergativity and
polypersonalism)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: CXS to IPA-UTF8-converter?
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: THEORY: Ergativity and polypersonalism
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: THEORY: French and polypersonalism (was: THEORY: Ergativity and
polypersonalism)
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. mu for [N] (was: Koryak Vowel harmony)
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: mu for [N] (was: Koryak Vowel harmony)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: THEORY: French and polypersonalism (was: THEORY: Ergativity and
polypersonalism)
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: mu for [N] (was: Koryak Vowel harmony)
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:55:49 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: French and polypersonalism (was: THEORY: Ergativity and
polypersonalism)
I very much agree on the polysynthetic analysis of the verb in modern spoken
French.
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:16:52 +0000, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
>On Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 01:52 , # 1 wrote:
>[snip]
>> I'm also a native french speaker so I know what I'm talking about, even
>> if i'm not a linguist
>
>I am sorry, but with respect it is just possible that if you are not a
>linguist you may not know what you are talking about.
Especially when talking about your native language! Foreigners who learnt
the language in school have usually more theoretical knowledge than native
speakers who have never had any linguistics.
Most German speakers, for instance, when asked about the adjective endings,
would say: I can easily explain it because I can use them correctly! Then,
they'd find a lot of contradictory samples, but not the rules, and would
finally give up (unless they'd invent some strange theory or claim that
there'd be no rules).
Foreigners would often be able to tell you that German adjective endings
depend on definitness, case, gender, and number. Then, they'd complain that
it's very difficult to use them correctly.
...
>On Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 06:28 , Philip Newton wrote:
...
>> ........................ where he [Jacques] points
>> out that someone is "misled by the spaces in the archaic French
>> orthography" and says that something which is traditionally written as
>> a separate "word" is part of the verb.
>
>Exactement! Et....
>
>> ..................: "If colloquial
>> French were an unwritten langauge, it would be most clearly analyzed
>> as having a rather complex verb with prefixed subject and object
>> marking."
>
>Précisément! Vive Jacques! :)
Or even with complex circumfix markings for a several persons (not
necessarily for negations, though).
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:18:37 -0800
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS to IPA-UTF8-converter?
Emaelivpeith Henrik Theiling:
> taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Therefore, are there any already existing cxs-ipa to ipa-in-utf8
> > converters out there?
>
> Yes, at:
>
> http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
>
> At the end, there is a Perl module CXS.pm. The tables are also
> available for Lisp.
I second Henrik's suggestion. He has an excellent module there. I use
it in my website, where I store all my data in CXS but display it
online in Unicode.
--
AA
http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/
(watch the Reply-To!)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:06:37 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: Ergativity and polypersonalism
Hi,
Tim May wrote:
> It shouldn't be too difficult to
> get hold of further information if you're interested.
>
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=DBL
Ah, ok. It seems I need to use "Ethnologue" more extensively. I often get
lost on the language names in English, especially since many natlangs seem
to have changed official names for "political correctness" reasons.
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:11:51 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: French and polypersonalism (was: THEORY: Ergativity and
polypersonalism)
Salvete,
Ray Brown scripsit:
> > I think he was quite serious that spoken French should be reanalyzed
this
> > way,
>
> I am sure he was; and Jacques Guy took a similar line IIRC, and it is an
> analysis that I have been familiar with for many years.
In 1989 I was taught a course in General Linguistics at the Kiev State
University. The lecturer was a quite outstanding Ukrainian professor Dr.
K.M.Tyshchenko. He shocked us by telling the same things about French
polysynthesis we're discussing now. This idea seems very reasonable for me
even now.
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:38:49 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: mu for [N] (was: Koryak Vowel harmony)
Salvete,
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Isaac Penzev writes:
> > ... µ for [N] - translit is mine) ...
>
> Would that generally be understood?
I think no. I used µ as a simulation of eng character. The only reason for
this is that I find ń used sometimes for this purpose extremely misleading,
as I'm accustomed to see it in Spanish for [J].
> I like it.
> mu seems nice.
> Maybe I'll steal that, especially becaus it's included in iso-8859-1
> and -15.
I liked it too even though it was invented just on spot. I'm going to use it
in Latin translit of my recently conceived project, provisionally labelled
as CLP41. µ resembles eng very much, and is included in most Latin encodings
at the same code point AFAIK.
> 'm', which I don't need, is weird for /N/ or /N\/.
Indeed that would be too weird...
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:02:41 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: mu for [N] (was: Koryak Vowel harmony)
Quoting Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Salvete,
>
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
>
> > Isaac Penzev writes:
> > > ... µ for [N] - translit is mine) ...
> >
> > Would that generally be understood?
>
> I think no. I used µ as a simulation of eng character. The only reason for
> this is that I find ń used sometimes for this purpose extremely misleading,
> as I'm accustomed to see it in Spanish for [J].
I find the use of mu extremely misleading, since I'm used to see it for /m/. :p
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:25:27 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: French and polypersonalism (was: THEORY: Ergativity and
polypersonalism)
ok let's forget what I said about that story...
but I passed the whole day to think to that, and to ask people around me
"how do you usually pronounce...?" to the point they were asking if I was
OK...
I'd like to bring another argument: I still think it is generalising to
think that a such polypersonnal definition is applicable
it is true that when the object is a pronoun, if considering words are only
countable by stress, that pronoun could be compared to a prefix
I love you=/ZtEm/, he eats you=/itma~Z/ etc...
but if the object is a noun or a verb that prefix will not be there
I love my cat=[ZEmo~SA] and not [ZlEmo~SA]
(or maybe [ZEm:o~SA] -> I know the [m] sound is differencable of a
single m but I'm not sure if it is by its lenght or its strenght or
something)
I eat my vegetables=/Zma~Z.melegym/
so I'm not sure: can a desinence disapear when it represent an information
already represented by a noun?
a language saying the sentence "I love her" and "I love my mother"
love-1st.per.-3rd.pers.
love-1st.per. my mother
Is it possible? the dropping of a desinence to avoid repetition
If so: yes, spoken French could be considered polypersonnal in some cases
If not: no, it can't because the congugation would not be the same with or
without an object
Do you have an example of language were it is possible to drop morphemes
repeating something?
polypersonnal conjugation of the verb to love in French at present time
Obj.
Not a pronoun Singular Plural
|| 1 2 3 1 2 3
\/
1 ZEm ZmEm* StEm ZlEm ZnuzEm ZvuzEm ZezEm
S 2 tEm tymEm tytEm* tyl:Em tynuzEm --- tylezEm
3 jEm imEm itEm il:Em inuzEm ivuzEm jezEm
Sub. isEm*
1 o~nEm o~mEm o~tEm o~l:Em o~sEm* o~vuzEm o~lezEm
P 2 vuzEme vumEme --- vul:Eme vunuzEme vuvuzEme* vulezEme
3 izEm imEm itEm il:Em inuzEm ivuzEm ilezEm
I still ask myself if a congugaison can change when the object isn't a
pronoun but in that case it would
I agree that the subject pronoun could be considered as a prefix most of the
time but not the object morpheme wich appears only in the case that the
object isn't a pronoun,
and because it goes between the subject and the verb, the subject is
probably not a prefix neither
How would these analysis of the spoken French analyse a sentence like
/SpAlA/(I'm not there)
alone the [S] means the present first person singular of the verb to be
[pA] means negation
[lA] means "there"
I'm not sure any one-sound-prefix could contain as much information, a
linguist analysing it as a new language without knowing any european
language would probably deduce it is a reduced form of a few words..
please give me one of these website where you say you've found these
polypersonnal analysis of spoken french, I've not envisaged all
possibilities and I'd like to read those who did
-Max
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:29:28 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: mu for [N] (was: Koryak Vowel harmony)
Hi!
Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Isaac Penzev writes:
> > > ... µ for [N] - translit is mine) ...
> >
> > Would that generally be understood?
>
> I think no. I used µ as a simulation of eng character. ...
I think it's still much better than |m| or |ń|, which both seem
misleading. I seem to have overseen this fourth nasal character in
isolatin! :-) Very nice.
I thing I will experiment with this for Qthen|gai romanisation. It's
currently a bit uneven.
Any good suggestion for a voiceless pharyngeal fricative? :-)
Currently, I use |hh|, the only digraph[1]. I thought about y with
diaeresis, maybe.
**Henrik
[1] Unless you analyse [nd], written |nd| as /d/, which would be
feasible.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
