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There are 22 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Ms. problem
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Fonts
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: odd phrase/translation exercise
From: Renà Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
From: Kevin Athey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: JÃrg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Ms. problem
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Person distinctions in languages?
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Ms. problem
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Person distinctions in languages?
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. PIE -> Sanskrit
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Proverbs
From: Renà Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: PIE -> Sanskrit
From: Bryan Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
From: Kevin Athey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: PIE -> Sanskrit
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Universals list?
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:02:23 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ms. problem
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:38:19 -0500, Ph. D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Paul Bennett said:
>>
>> Certainly with Adobe Acrobat, you can set it up to
>> include special characters as graphics (i.e. you can
>> say "include text in fonts X, Y, and Z just by
>> specifying the font name, but include text in fonts
>> I, J and K by outputting the graphics for them"). I
>> suspect that the PDF printer mentioned above could
>> do it, too. As a last resort, you can check the
>> "print text as graphics" option on the Printer Setup
>> dialog. You'll make a bigger PDF, but PDF includes
>> some fairly good compression to cope with that.
>
> I thought the whole idea with making PDFs was that
> they encoded the source fonts, so the end reader didn't
> need to have those fonts installed. If you have those
> characters in the fonts you use to create the PDF, I
> would expect them to show up correctly in the end
> document.
Including a full or partial glyph set from a font is optional with PDF,
and with Acrobat it can be set at PDF-creation time. I have produced a few
documents without embedding the correct fonts, only to have my remote
readership mumble and grumble.
Also, PDF allows for some quite sophisticated font metrics information,
which means that you very often do not need to worry at all about fonts,
either their presence, or their embedding. The Acrobat reader at the other
end has its own repository of fonts, to which it applies embedded font
metrics information, if present. Have you ever viewed a PDF on-line, and
noticed text first appears, and then a moment later changes font slightly?
That's Acrobat rendering a close approximation font first, before it has
downloaded the embedded font information, to get you something readable as
quickly as possible.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:13:30 -0800
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fonts
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:30:36 -0800, Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Emaelivpeith Kevin Athey:
> > Can anyone suggest free PC font-design software? My needs are not to
> > extensive, but any recommendations would be well-recieved.
>
> The ones I know of:
>
> * MetaFont -- http://metafont.latex.free.fr/
> * FontForge -- http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/
> * Softy -- http://users.breathe.com/l-emmett/
I use one called ScanFont (
http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/ScanFont/ ). It's not free, but
there is a crack out there somewhere. I would use FontForge, but I
can't seem to figure out how to make it generate fonts Windows will
accept.
--
Hasta la pasta,
Jonathyn Bet'nct.
--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_
I tried the real world once; didn't really care for it.
Help me get a free iPod:
http://www.freeiPods.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Probably a pyramid scheme or whatever, but whatever...)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:20:46 +0100
From: Renà Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: odd phrase/translation exercise
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> "I didn't know that you were a philosopher".
I opted for "wisdom-lover" as the CalÃnnawn translation of "philosopher":
ÃÅe hi panalÃta zÃno sÃnntiÅe nÃmiba-vivÃyna.
/'ESE hi pana'luta 'zono 'sOn:tiSE ,numibavi'vAjna/
Ã-Åe hi panalÃta zÃno sÃnnti-Åe nÃm<ib>a-vi-vÃyna.
1SG-PAST not know that 2SG-PAST wise<ABSTR>-AGT-love
I didn't know that you were a wisdom-lover.
RenÃ
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:09:37 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:58, Shaul Vardi wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark J. Reed
> > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:34 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 03:24:32AM +0100, Jean-FranÃois Colson wrote:
> > > Just look there:
> > > http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/kids/islam/months.html
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > > Rabi al-Awwal - The First Spring
> > >
> > > Rabi ath-Thani - The Second Spring
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Are those literal translations of the names? I find it quite
> > surprising that the Islamic calendar, which has absolutely no
> > seasonal anchors, would have months named after seasons and
> > weather conditions. Holy misnomers!
The Islamic calendar is lunar, not solar. Its seasonal swings are quite
predictable, though not "ordinary" to anyone using the solar calendar.
>
> The translations are absolutely literal. Interesting indeed.
Muharram? I link that with "haram", which doesn't mean "sacred' as far as I
know. Unless it is pre-Islamic, which wouldn't surprise me.
Rabi al-Awwal, Rabi al-Thani
Jumad al-Ula, Jumad al-Thani
Either Awwal and Ula are two different words, or vocalization changes
dramatically for the word awwal/ula depending on circumstances I can't work
out from the small sample presented here.
Dhul Hijjah - that's pre-Islamic. The Qabah Sanctuary was sacred to all the
warring tribes, so - like the Greeks with the Olympic Games, a truce was
declared for the purposes of the Hajj.
>
> > Also, IIRC, the Muslim holy day (well, holier day; Muslims
> > seem to do their worshipping and prayer services daily) is
> > Friday. So are Islamic calendars printed with Friday at the
> > end of the week?
>
> No, I haven't seen that. I had an interesting discussion with a Muslim
> Arab work colleague of mine yesterday. As you mentioned, yesterday was
> the Muslim new year, and my children were off school. But the whole
> event was very low key, and my friend turned up for work and had a
> meeting with some other people, also Muslim Arabs... I asked him and he
> said that there are only really two festivals, Id al-Fitr and Id
> al-Adha; other dates (like the new year) might be an occasion for
> special prayers, but are virtually unmarked in social terms. He quoted
> a tradition (Hadith) about the Prophet Mohammed saying that there are 2
> festivals, but I can't remember it exactly.
Which makes quite a difference from the Jewish calendar, which has a fair few
festivals, some of which date from the Children of Israel's nomadic period,
and the Roman Catholic calendar, which is stuffed full of festivals, not that
anyone would have occasion to celebrate even half lest they starve, but which
shows its origins as the calendar of a rural society with cities being
parasitic on it.
>
> > -Marcos
Wesley Parish
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:50:46 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:09:37 +1300, Wesley Parish
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Poster: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:58, Shaul Vardi wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Constructed Languages List
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark J. Reed
> > > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:34 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
> > >
> > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 03:24:32AM +0100, Jean-FranÃois Colson wrote:
> > > > Just look there:
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/kids/islam/months.html
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > > Rabi al-Awwal - The First Spring
> > > >
> > > > Rabi ath-Thani - The Second Spring
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > Are those literal translations of the names? I find it quite
> > > surprising that the Islamic calendar, which has absolutely no
> > > seasonal anchors, would have months named after seasons and
> > > weather conditions. Holy misnomers!
>
> The Islamic calendar is lunar, not solar. Its seasonal swings are quite
> predictable, though not "ordinary" to anyone using the solar calendar.
> >
> > The translations are absolutely literal. Interesting indeed.
>
> Muharram? I link that with "haram", which doesn't mean "sacred' as far as I
> know. Unless it is pre-Islamic, which wouldn't surprise me.
I'd not be surprised if it is pre-Islamic, as it seems people are
pretty resistant to giving up calendrical systems or changing them,
especially when they get incorporated into the religious system. Look
at our Calendrical system - many of the months represent Roman pagan
months, but of course no one (except maybe Roman reconstructionists)
celebrate the religious aspect of the months.
> Dhul Hijjah - that's pre-Islamic. The Qabah Sanctuary was sacred to all the
> warring tribes, so - like the Greeks with the Olympic Games, a truce was
> declared for the purposes of the Hajj.
It's interesting that the Qabah sanctuary had not been demolished.
Although i've heard there are other pre-Islamic sanctuaries or special
places that used to be pre-Islamic worship sites. I'd also read that
the many idols within it (or that were within it) represented the god
or gods sacred to each tribe, which were deposited within the Qabah
sanctuary.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:47:39 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:50, B. Garcia wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:09:37 +1300, Wesley Parish
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > ----------------------- Sender: Constructed Languages List
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Poster: Wesley Parish
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >------
> >
> > On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:58, Shaul Vardi wrote:
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Constructed Languages List
> > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark J. Reed
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:34 PM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 03:24:32AM +0100, Jean-FranÃois Colson wrote:
> > > > > Just look there:
> > > > > http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/kids/islam/months.html
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > > Rabi al-Awwal - The First Spring
> > > > >
> > > > > Rabi ath-Thani - The Second Spring
> > > >
> > > > [snip]
> > > >
> > > > Are those literal translations of the names? I find it quite
> > > > surprising that the Islamic calendar, which has absolutely no
> > > > seasonal anchors, would have months named after seasons and
> > > > weather conditions. Holy misnomers!
> >
> > The Islamic calendar is lunar, not solar. Its seasonal swings are quite
> > predictable, though not "ordinary" to anyone using the solar calendar.
> >
> > > The translations are absolutely literal. Interesting indeed.
> >
> > Muharram? I link that with "haram", which doesn't mean "sacred' as far
> > as I know. Unless it is pre-Islamic, which wouldn't surprise me.
>
> I'd not be surprised if it is pre-Islamic, as it seems people are
> pretty resistant to giving up calendrical systems or changing them,
> especially when they get incorporated into the religious system. Look
> at our Calendrical system - many of the months represent Roman pagan
> months, but of course no one (except maybe Roman reconstructionists)
> celebrate the religious aspect of the months.
>
> > Dhul Hijjah - that's pre-Islamic. The Qabah Sanctuary was sacred to all
> > the warring tribes, so - like the Greeks with the Olympic Games, a truce
> > was declared for the purposes of the Hajj.
>
> It's interesting that the Qabah sanctuary had not been demolished.
> Although i've heard there are other pre-Islamic sanctuaries or special
> places that used to be pre-Islamic worship sites. I'd also read that
> the many idols within it (or that were within it) represented the god
> or gods sacred to each tribe, which were deposited within the Qabah
> sanctuary.
It was "repurposed". Still as the focus of the tribes, but now sacred to the
Muslim state that took the place of the separate city-states and independent
tribes.
As for the rest, that's correct. Muhammed cleared out those idols. He
changed a good many of the customs, while retaining the overarching
framework.
Wesley Parish
>
>
> --
> You can turn away from me
> but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
> And you'll never be the city guy
> Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
>
> Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:39:11 -0600
From: Kevin Athey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
>From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > > Are those literal translations of the names? I find it quite
> > > surprising that the Islamic calendar, which has absolutely no
> > > seasonal anchors, would have months named after seasons and
> > > weather conditions. Holy misnomers!
>
>The Islamic calendar is lunar, not solar. Its seasonal swings are quite
>predictable, though not "ordinary" to anyone using the solar calendar.
If by predictable you mean it shifts either 10 or 11 days back with regards
to solar longitude every year, then yes it is. Sort of. Actually, the
phases of the moon aren't entirely predictable even for astronomers, and the
Islamic calendar is ultimately observational, so whether it is 10 or 11 days
is something it is only possible to guess at (with considerable accuracy,
but no certainty).
However, it seems like you mean that the Islamic calendar has leap months,
like the Hebrew or Chinese calendars. It does not. The Islamic calendar is
the worlds only lunar calendar. Those others of the most common type:
lunisolar. Lunisolar calendars have odd shifts through the seasons, which
are predictable (in the case of the predictive calendars, like the Hebrew)
or nearly so (in the case of the observational calendars, like the Chinese),
but lunisolar calendars do shift back and forth across solar longitude
meaning that any date will be within approximately 15 days of the
"corresponding" Gregorian date on any given year.
The pre-Islamic calendar of the region was lunisolar, though, and that is
where the names come from. At this point, though, the names are just names,
and they only coincide with nature for a few years every 33 1/2 years, give
or take.
Calendars that aren't in sync with celestial cycles, while rare, are
actually more common that you might think. The "solar" Mayan calendar is
actually an invarient 365 days, which cycles through the seasons once every
1507 years, almost exactly. The 20-day "months" have seasonal names which,
like the Islamic names, are usually inaccurate. And, of course, there is
the 260 Mayan Tz'olkin calendar, which was never intended to represent
either a year or a month, but rather the time between solar transits* over
the homeland of that particular calendar.
Athey
*<soapbox> Actually, there are a number of competing theories. This is
simply, in my opinion, by far the most reasonable. It may seem a little
arbitrary, but in that part of Mesoamerica, the solar transits mark the
beginnings and ends of the rainy season. This is vitally important to
agriculture, which was being developed at the time the calendar is thought
to have first appeared. This seems much more plausible to me than notions
like the Tz'olkin representing the human gestation period or the length of 9
lunations, both of which it actually fails to predict accurately.
</soapbox>
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:07:16 +0100
From: JÃrg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
Hallo!
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:02:29 -0500,
"Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm trying to calculate the orbital period of an Earth-sized planet at
> 15 AUs out from a star that's about 7.5 times the mass of the Sun.
What are you going to do with that planet? If you want an Earthlike
planet with nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere and lots of life on it,
forget it! A star with about 7.5 times the mass of the Sun has
a very short lifespan (only a few million years), which means
that the planet doesn't have enough time to evolve an advanced
biosphere before the star goes bust. Your star would go supernova
before the planet has formed a solid crust.
And according to current theories, such huge stars don't have planets
at all. High-mass stars rotate rapidly (with periods of a few
*hours* as compared to the 20-something *days* of the Sun) and
have angular momenta comparable with that of the entire solar
system (where the *mass* is mostly in the Sun, but the *angular
momentum* mostly in the planets), which indicates that they
don't have planets to transfer their angular momentum to.
Greetings,
JÃrg.
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:18:01 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:07:16PM +0100, JÃrg Rhiemeier wrote:
> What are you going to do with that planet? If you want an Earthlike
> planet with nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere and lots of life on it,
> forget it! A star with about 7.5 times the mass of the Sun has
> a very short lifespan (only a few million years), which means
> that the planet doesn't have enough time to evolve an advanced
> biosphere before the star goes bust. Your star would go supernova
> before the planet has formed a solid crust.
I'm well aware. Nevertheless, this particular star does have such a
planet - an artificial construct. As to why anyone looking to recreate
Earthlike conditions would go to the trouble of building a planet in a
B3 solar system rather than populating an existing planet in a G2 system
somewhere else . . . well, that's a bit of a mystery. :)
Another question is why the inhabitants, who are descended from
Earthlings, haven't been fried by the massive amounts of UV such a star
puts out relative to the Sun. I'm guessing either selective
breeding/genetic engineering to improve their resistance to UV
radiation, or a seriously thick ozone layer.
-Marcos
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:27:21 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 10:09:37PM +1300, Wesley Parish wrote:
> The Islamic calendar is lunar, not solar. Its seasonal swings are quite
> predictable, though not "ordinary" to anyone using the solar calendar.
Yes, they're predictable (within the one-day-per-month variation caused
by atmospheric vagaries due to the observational basis of the calendar),
but that doesn't change my point, which is that it doesn't make any
sense to have a month named e.g. "first spring" when that month
only falls *in* the spring for about 9 years at a time 35 years apart,
and is just as likely to fall in any other season. :)
-Marcos
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:22:58 +0000
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ms. problem
Gary Shannon wrote:
>>At work we use cutepdf writer, which is free:
>>http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp
>>Note that is needs ghostscript (there's a link on
>>the page)
>>
>>RenÃ
> It appears to me that the OP was asking how to CREATE
> a pdf, not how to print one or turn it into a text
> file.
?. CutePDF does create PDFs; after installation, a new printer
device appears. You print to this "printer" from any program,
and a PDF file is produced and saved. It's a common enough
technique for PDF-producers, since you can then produce the PDF
from any printable file type. This makes sense, since PDF is
meant to be able to manage anything printable (it's basically
a compressed, font-embedding and other ways enhanced version
of PostScript, after all).
> To CREATE a PDF go here: http://www.pdf995.com/
I seem to recall using that, and UNINSTALLING, um, uninstalling
it after a while. Don't recall why, though; I don't think it was
because of the ads. Oh look, I made some FUD ... :)
> --gary
s.
--
She wolde weep, if that she saugh a mous StiofÃn à Maoilbreanainn
Kaught in a trappe, if it were deed or bledde. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales, GP.144-145
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:30:33 +0000
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Person distinctions in languages?
Steven Williams wrote:
> --- Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> schrieb:
>
>>Hey!
>
>
> Hi, or rather, [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]<]
> or
> however J. 'Mach' Wust decided it was really
> pronounced.
I think this represents a Swiss variety only :).
s.
--
She wolde weep, if that she saugh a mous StiofÃn à Maoilbreanainn
Kaught in a trappe, if it were deed or bledde. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales, GP.144-145
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:30:55 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ms. problem
--- Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> Oh look, I made some FUD ... :)
>
Are you now, or have you ever been on the Microsoft
payroll? ;-) (They are, after all, the masters of
FUD.)
--gary
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:49:38 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Person distinctions in languages?
--- Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi, or rather, [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]<]
or
> > however J. 'Mach' Wust decided it was really
> > pronounced.
>
> I think this represents a Swiss variety only :).
Yeah. I'd _love_ to see how *k evolved into [!\]. Does
edelweiss have psychotropic properties :)?
___________________________________________________________
Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 250MB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden:
http://mail.yahoo.de
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:54:23 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
Mark J. Reed wrote at 2005-02-12 10:27:21 (-0500)
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 10:09:37PM +1300, Wesley Parish wrote:
> > The Islamic calendar is lunar, not solar. Its seasonal swings
> > are quite predictable, though not "ordinary" to anyone using the
> > solar calendar.
>
> Yes, they're predictable (within the one-day-per-month variation
> caused by atmospheric vagaries due to the observational basis of
> the calendar), but that doesn't change my point, which is that it
> doesn't make any sense to have a month named e.g. "first spring"
> when that month only falls *in* the spring for about 9 years at a
> time 35 years apart, and is just as likely to fall in any other
> season. :)
>
My understanding of this matter is that the lunar Islamic calendar
represents a reform of the pre-Islamic lunisolar Arabic calendar, in
which the month names made sense.
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:02:45 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: PIE -> Sanskrit
I'm skimming through this enormous reference work on
Proto-IE, "Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans" by
Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, and it brought up some rather
fascinating points.
('Gamkrelidze' sounds familiar, for some reason...)
I was wondering how the Sanskrit retroflexes came
about, since PIE had no contrast between those and
dental phonemes. In one chapter, it points out that
the Sanskrit retroflex plosives were the result of the
erosion of medial [st] and [sd]-type clusters; the [s]
was an alveolar phoneme and quite handily imparted its
alveolar qualities onto the following dental phoneme.
Thus (and I'm just making up an example here):
*nis-dha -> nis-.dha -> niz-.dha -> nih-.dha ->
ni-.dha
Or something like that.
I could understand that, although I'd be more inclined
to believe that in [st]-type clusters, where the [t]
is dental, it would remain dental, as in the Romance
languages.
What I'm wondering is how the retroflex fricatives
came about. My first thought is that they could have
come about through [rs]-type clusters, since that's
how it works in Norwegian, and the [r] in Sanskrit
seems to make following coronals retroflex anyways (as
in 'krsna', where the entire medial consonant cluster
[rsn] is retroflex, if I'm not mistaken).
Are there any other ideas as to how a retroflex series
could have originated without using such processes?
And how on Earth did Sanskrit get a series of
voiceless aspirates, when, according to both major
theories of PIE phonology, there were none in the
first place?
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:21:04 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 06:54:23PM +0000, Tim May wrote:
> My understanding of this matter is that the lunar Islamic calendar
> represents a reform of the pre-Islamic lunisolar Arabic calendar, in
> which the month names made sense.
Logical. So do we know what the proper alignment of the lunisolar calendar
was?
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:32:59 +0100
From: Renà Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proverbs
caeruleancentaur wrote:
>
> "Praise Allah, but first tie your camel to a post." I assume that
> the reference is to dismounting for one of the five times of daily
> prayer, but making sure your camel doesn't wander off while you are
> praying.
There is a variant in Dutch that rhymes. It goes like this:
Vertrouw op God, maar zet wel je fiets op slot.
Have faith in God, but remember to lock your bike.
If I translate the camel-variant to CalÃnnawn (I don't think they have
camels on CalÃntuy, I chose to translate as "steed"):
Pos mÃglu-qoy DarÃÅ, sÃfa tÃsvo qÃrba-qoy so stÃbo elÃÃsu supà blic.
/pOs 'moglu-XOj da'R\OS, 'sofa 'tEsvo 'XiR\ba-XOj so 'stobo El_j'isu
su'pE blik/
Pos mÃglu-qoy DarÃÅ, sÃfa tÃs-vo qÃrba-qoy so stÃbo elÃÃsu su-pà blic.
2PL praise-IMP God, but one-ORD tie-IMP ART.ACC 2PL.POSS steed to (a) post.
Praise Allah, but first tie your steed to a post.
Ãylo!
RenÃ
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:49:55 +0000
From: Bryan Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: PIE -> Sanskrit
--- Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm skimming through this enormous reference work on
> Proto-IE, "Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans" by
> Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, and it brought up some
> rather
> fascinating points.
>
> ('Gamkrelidze' sounds familiar, for some reason...)
>
> I was wondering how the Sanskrit retroflexes came
> about, since PIE had no contrast between those and
> dental phonemes. In one chapter, it points out that
> the Sanskrit retroflex plosives were the result of
> the
> erosion of medial [st] and [sd]-type clusters; the
> [s]
> was an alveolar phoneme and quite handily imparted
> its
> alveolar qualities onto the following dental
> phoneme.
> Thus (and I'm just making up an example here):
>
> *nis-dha -> nis-.dha -> niz-.dha -> nih-.dha ->
> ni-.dha
>
> Or something like that.
>
> I could understand that, although I'd be more
> inclined
> to believe that in [st]-type clusters, where the [t]
> is dental, it would remain dental, as in the Romance
> languages.
>
> What I'm wondering is how the retroflex fricatives
> came about. My first thought is that they could have
> come about through [rs]-type clusters, since that's
> how it works in Norwegian, and the [r] in Sanskrit
> seems to make following coronals retroflex anyways
> (as
> in 'krsna', where the entire medial consonant
> cluster
> [rsn] is retroflex, if I'm not mistaken).
>
> Are there any other ideas as to how a retroflex
> series
> could have originated without using such processes?
> And how on Earth did Sanskrit get a series of
> voiceless aspirates, when, according to both major
> theories of PIE phonology, there were none in the
> first place?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
I recall reading that the retroflex series came from
the Dravidian languages. I shall try to dig out a
reference for you.
=====
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams.
-- William Butler Yeats
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Message: 20
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:41:32 -0600
From: Kevin Athey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Hebrew calendar direction
>From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Mark J. Reed wrote at 2005-02-12 10:27:21 (-0500)
> > On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 10:09:37PM +1300, Wesley Parish wrote:
> > > The Islamic calendar is lunar, not solar. Its seasonal swings
> > > are quite predictable, though not "ordinary" to anyone using the
> > > solar calendar.
> >
> > Yes, they're predictable (within the one-day-per-month variation
> > caused by atmospheric vagaries due to the observational basis of
> > the calendar), but that doesn't change my point, which is that it
> > doesn't make any sense to have a month named e.g. "first spring"
> > when that month only falls *in* the spring for about 9 years at a
> > time 35 years apart, and is just as likely to fall in any other
> > season. :)
> >
>
>My understanding of this matter is that the lunar Islamic calendar
>represents a reform of the pre-Islamic lunisolar Arabic calendar, in
>which the month names made sense.
That's correct. As in most parts of the world, the oldest calendar
consisted of twelve named observational lunar months with a thirteenth month
inserted locally as needed (once every two or three years) without any
regular rule. Each pre-Islamic Arab tribe would determine for itself
whether a given year had an intercalary month.
Athey
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:45:15 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: PIE -> Sanskrit
Steven Williams wrote:
> I was wondering how the Sanskrit retroflexes came
> about, since PIE had no contrast between those and
> dental phonemes. In one chapter, it points out that
> the Sanskrit retroflex plosives were the result of the
> erosion of medial [st] and [sd]-type clusters; the [s]
> was an alveolar phoneme and quite handily imparted its
> alveolar qualities onto the following dental phoneme.
That's possible, though I don't recall hearing about it in the rather
hurried IE course I took. IIRC Gamkrelidze and Ivanov are a little
controversial--they either espouse/don't espouse the so-called glottalic
theory. It's also quite possible that at least some are due to
contact/Sprachbund with substrate Dravidian and Munda languages.
>
> What I'm wondering is how the retroflex fricatives
> came about. My first thought is that they could have
> come about through [rs]-type clusters, since that's
> how it works in Norwegian, and the [r] in Sanskrit
> seems to make following coronals retroflex anyways (as
> in 'krsna', where the entire medial consonant cluster
> [rsn] is retroflex, if I'm not mistaken).
>
This I think is phonologically conditioned wrt to the sibilants at least,
and maybe it carries over to nasals-- the so-called RUKI rule (which also
affected Balto-Slavic IIRC). An *s following k,r,u and apparently i >
retroflexed /s./ So you have
ks.atriya (warrior/caste), pus.pa (flower), krs.n.a, dos.a **/dausa/
(sin) --can't think of any -is.- exs. offhand.
> And how on Earth did Sanskrit get a series of
> voiceless aspirates, when, according to both major
> theories of PIE phonology, there were none in the
> first place?
>
IIRC some believe these arose from vl.stop+laryngeal. Don't G&I discuss it?
Isn't there a "history of Sanskrit" in one or another of the Great Languages
series (Cambridge, or older Faber)?
I'm sure all these topics have been discussed at some time or other on
Cybalist (a yahoogroup).
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Message: 22
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:51:26 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Universals list?
I've seen the Greenberg list.
But AFAIK, it's considered outdated and methodologically unsound
'cause of the small sample size. I know there have been studies on
this since then, but I don't know of any equally convenient form of
them - i.e. some sort of list of tendencies / implications / etc.
Anyone know of such a thing?
- Sai
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