------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EA3HyD/3MnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 25 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: Weekly Vocab 1 and 2 in Ayeri From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 2. Re: geemblik From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 3. Re: Proverbs From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4. Conlang books? From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 5. OT: Minor note From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 6. Re: Conlang books? From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 7. Re: OT: Minor note From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 8. Re: OT: Re: domain names From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 9. Re: [OT] conplaneteering From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10. Introducing myself, and several questions From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 11. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 13. affixes From: Scotto Hlad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 14. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 15. Re: affixes From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 16. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 17. Workshops Review #04 From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 18. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 19. Damin From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 20. Re: Damin From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 21. Re: Damin From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 22. Re: [OT] conplaneteering From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 23. Re: Damin From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 24. Re: Damin From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 25. Re: PDF Creator addendum From: Sam Drost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:44:06 +0100 From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Weekly Vocab 1 and 2 in Ayeri --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Look what I've found ... It's (at least much of) the Weekly > Vocabs in one file -- which reminds me to go on copying my > own vocabulary stuff and posting it here ... Cool. I don't recall having done it in Jovian, and Google agrees on that, so I'm giving it a go. > > 1. round > > The king's hall is round. Id aeder yh rec ix rounde. [i '[EMAIL PROTECTED] y reC iS rund] > > 2. everyone > > Everyone is dancing. Oenes saudan. [Ajnz '[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > 3. same > > I am wearing the same shoes as the (choose appropriate > > monarch title). Jero ize eos xuohes ud Audu ih Rec. ['je:rA i:z ES [EMAIL PROTECTED] u dawd i reC] Using "High King" as the appropriate monarch title. |Ize| is from IDEM, |xuohe| from Germanic. > > 4. breed > > We are a breed above the commoners. Sume a jende suobrore ei pleve. [su:m @ jend su'bro:r e ble:v] Literally, "We are a line superior to the common folk." Incidentally, it ends up with a nice rhythm to it. :) > > 5. to obey > > They must obey us. Muessen noe voezire. ['myss@ nAj va'zi:r] The |noe| would be after the verb by default, but I prefer the rhythm this way. ::ponders introducing euphonic rules into Jovian:: ;o) > > 6. to notice > > I do not notice them often. Nau eos nodo sae. [no Es 'no:dA saj] Same as above. > > 7. angry > > Now the commoners are angry. Nun ja pleve noe saeve. [nun j@ ble:v nAj sajv] > > 8. to revolt (against something) > > They are revolting against me. Surren conner me. ['surr@ '[EMAIL PROTECTED] me:] > > 9. to lose (win, not find) > > My soldiers have lost. Mi mildes haen peirte. [mi vildz hEm bErt] > > 10. to vote > > The people vote against me. Ih poubul sufraehe conner me. [i '[EMAIL PROTECTED] su'frajC '[EMAIL PROTECTED] me:] > > And the Advanced Section: > > > > 11. to opress > > The commoners opress me! Wail of anguish! ¡Me oppriwe ja pleve! ¡We! [mAp'pri:v j@ ble:v ve:] > > 12. suffrage > > This suffrage is bad for my coffer. Id sufraehun noexa min arga. [i dzu'frajh@ naS min arg] > > 13. succession > > > 14. to abrogate > > The line of succession has been most unfortunately > > abrogated. Ja jende hae fide praehise manore mou maevadu. [j@ jend he vi:d prE'hi:z m@'no:r mu vE'va:d] |Manore| is not related to "manière", but to MAGNOPERE. |Mou|, on the other hand, is the part that means "in a fashion", derived from MODO. You know, translating the text, I got a feeling of déjà vu. Jovian had nearly all of those words already. Maybe I did do the exercise back then after all... -- Christian Thalmann ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:30 -0500 From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: geemblik René Uittenbogaard wrote: >I had already heard a reduction of "gegeven moment" [X@'Xev@ mo'mEnt] to >"gevement" ['Xev@,mEnt] - a reduction from five syllables to three, but >reducing six to three seems like pushing the limits. Are there many >examples in other languages of reducing six syllables to three? I can easily find examples in French: The sentence "Je sais que tu es dedans" [EMAIL PROTECTED]@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (I know that you are in) will be said [S:e.kte.d:a~] -> 7 syllables reduced in 3 = 43% The phrase "Je ne suis pas" [EMAIL PROTECTED]@.sHi.pa] (I am not) will be said [SpA] -> 4 syllables reduced in 1 = 25% that's a good rate! - Max ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:41:41 -0000 From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Proverbs In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: - A closed mouth catches no flies. Italian Proverb árgon óóson tèmi mocémi ne nóósa. closed mouth-NOM.SG the fly-ACC.PL not it-catch.in.the.mouth.PRES óósa = to catch in the mouth. - A good husband is healthy and absent. Japanese Proverb váádun pótun sáánun ápuncöe nésa. good husband-NOM.SG healthy away-and he-is.PRES - A prudent man does not make the goat his gardener. Hungarian Proverb µíðmun µírun nùµem ÿádem tom çeerdárom çééra ne nuvúnda. wise man-NOM.SG his goat-ACC.SG the garden-ACC.SG cultivate-INF not he-permit-PRES - A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows the public opinion. Chinese Proverb µíðmun µírun nùµem söeedómi reçómi nuréça; neµíðmun µírun tom péélðom mínom nusécöa. wise man-NOM.SG his own decision-NOM.PL he-decide-PRES; not-wise man- NOM.SG the common opinion-ACC.SG he-follow-PRES Charlie http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:19:36 -0800 From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Conlang books? Are there any recent or in-progress conlang books? I'm actually toying with the idea of converting the work I've done on my class into an outline for a book (possibly with a subgoal of being an intro linguistics book, possibly just a "how to make a language" primer). I don't know of any existing projects of the sort - are there any? Or for that matter, anything newer than Yaguello (shudder) or Eco's Serendipities? - Sai ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:49:31 -0500 From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: OT: Minor note While clawing through an old box of stuff, looking for an obscure software CD, I found my copy of _Describing Morphosyntax_. It's a good day, that treasure had been lost for months. I will be advancing more quickly in Thagojian, Br'ga and possibly a romlang soonish. Paul ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:49:55 -0800 From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Conlang books? --- Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Are there any recent or in-progress conlang books? > > I'm actually toying with the idea of converting the > work I've done on > my class into an outline for a book (possibly with a > subgoal of being > an intro linguistics book, possibly just a "how to > make a language" > primer). I don't know of any existing projects of > the sort - are there > any? > > Or for that matter, anything newer than Yaguello > (shudder) or Eco's > Serendipities? > > - Sai > Zompist is thinking about making a print version of the Language Construction Kit. ===== -The Sock "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:51:23 -0800 From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: OT: Minor note --- Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > While clawing through an old box of stuff, looking > for an obscure software > CD, I found my copy of _Describing Morphosyntax_. > It's a good day, that > treasure had been lost for months. I will be > advancing more quickly in > Thagojian, Br'ga and possibly a romlang soonish. > > Lucky! I lost mine a long time ago... I think I may have left it at school. Isn't that just a pity? ===== -The Sock "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:58:44 +0100 From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: OT: Re: domain names On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:30:15 +0100, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sunday 13 February 2005 05:05, Sai Emrys wrote: > > > Cheapest I've seen to date that looked at > > all reliable, at ~$15. And hey, they support > > UserFriendly. > > Did I understand you right -- $15/month just for the domain > name? Probably per year, especially if it's only the domain name. gandi.net charges EUR12/year for com/net/org, so $15/year sounds in the same league. > I have my website hosted for EUR2/month inclusively one > domain name (.de, you could also choose .at, .ch or .fl). > No ads. Which would be EUR24/year, or more expensive (though you also have web space in the deal). And there's no .fl; I presume you mean .li. Cheers, -- Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Watch the Reply-To! ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:01:09 +0100 From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:46 +0100, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > κ Virgo[1] κ Virginis? > a radius of 18.38x our sun and a rotation period of > 53,000 days (cf. 25,400 days). Jörg said our sun has a rotation period of "twenty-something days", yet you say it's twenty-five *thousand* days? At first I thought that might be a decimal comma, but you wrote "18.38x" and not "18,38x". Cheers, -- Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Watch the Reply-To! ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:01:43 -0500 From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Introducing myself, and several questions My name is Damian, and I'm a conlanger. I've dabbled for years, never "finishing" anything to the point that arbitrary conversation is possible. I come to this list to ask for help in getting past roadblocks. I've read some of the archives, but not all 6 1/2 years of them. Here's where I want help: LEXICAL ICONICITY When creating the a priori lexicon for Qenya (early drafts of Quenya), Tolkien chose sound patterns that he felt "fit" a given meaning. http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/vice.htm However, I seem to have a dulled sense of aesthetics, possibly caused by my Asperger syndrome that causes me to distrust vague hunches. Much of the time, I can't seem to do better than creating phonotactic rules and then randomly assigning Swadesh-list glosses to sound patterns, possibly with the aid of a computer program. Are there some general procedures that govern lexical innovation in natlangs and naturalistic conlangs? Has anybody successfully implemented ding-dong or ta-ta in their conlangs? DEFAULT SETTINGS OF GRAMMAR I don't want to make euroclones all the time, but I don't want to make an unspeakable language that violates fifty-two universals either. What structures are "easier" for the developing hominid brain to parse? For example, do learners intrinsically prefer object-verb order or verb-object order? What about adjective-noun or noun-adjective? Is there any appeal to iconicity for this? CULTURAL-PHONETIC CORRELATION Does tendency for open or closed syllables, for softer or harder sounds, or for tones or no tones, depend on culture? I've heard of the Inuit and the Arabs, whose languages have fewer distinct vowel heights and more back consonants because their harsh environments make it painful to open the mouth to the elements in order to produce low vowels. In addition, Tolkien's chaotic orcs speak a phonaesthetically "harsher" language than his lawful elves. Is such correlation the rule or the exception? CULTURAL-GRAMMATIC CORRELATION Likewise, are any grammatical qualities correlated to aspects of the culture? Does an environmental or cultural constraint correlate with an OV or VO preference, with obligate marking of various properties of a noun or verb, or anything similar? I can see how a more paranoid culture might lead to evidentiary markers becoming grammaticalized; are there other examples? SIMPLIFICATION I understand that the lexicon can be reduced to sizes that may initially appear absurd while retaining expressiveness. Evidence: A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every meaning one can think of in 120 basic words. Is this true of grammar as well? For instance, in computing, the problem called 2-SAT is not NP-complete, but 3-SAT is NP-complete. Does this result have an analog in human language? Is it possible to make a fully expressive language that uses two-word clauses? Specifically, is the narrator's description of the language of the Eloi in chapter 5 of HG Wells's _The_Time_Machine_ unnatural? "Either I missed some subtle point or their language was excessively simple - almost exclusively composed of concrete substantives and verbs. There seemed to be few, if any, abstract terms, or little use of figurative language. Their sentences were usually simple and of two words, and I failed to convey or understand any but the simplest propositions." (N.B.: The description doesn't match movie Eloi by John Logan. But then little in the book matched the movie.) FURTHER READING When I search for some of these topics, Google often gives me results that look promising but say "Download this article for $30". Once Google fails me for gratis web resources, and my local public library's search engine fails me for print resources, what are some good resources for learning about these subjects without spending $500 on buying books and buying individual PDF article downloads? Or is conlanging a rich man's hobby? ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:28:17 +0100 From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:01:43 -0500, Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every > meaning one can think of in 120 basic words. I doubt it, but this may not be the place to argue that. (I feel that vagueness is built into the language, and that it's nearly impossible to be arbritrarily specific without becoming too ambiguous in the process or importing loan words.) Cheers, -- Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:41:28 +0900 From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions Damian Yerrick wrote: > I understand that the lexicon can be reduced to sizes that > may initially appear absurd while retaining expressiveness. > Evidence: A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every > meaning one can think of in 120 basic words. Philip Newton wrote: > I doubt it, but this may not be the place to argue that. (I feel that > vagueness is built into the language, and that it's nearly impossible > to be arbritrarily specific without becoming too ambiguous in the > process or importing loan words.) I studied Toki Pona for some time, and I agree. It is adequate for purposes it was intended, but not beyond that. Now, this must be the correct time to invoke the ceremonial language Damin, 250-words conlang by Austrailians. http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 13 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:39:53 -0700 From: Scotto Hlad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: affixes I'm looking for some lists of very affixes to help me develop nouns for my new conlang. Does anyone know of any lists of affixes that might designate different forms of nouns? eg. stem + affix1 = a tool stem + affix2 = a place. I'm looking for the categories that the affixes would designate. Any direction would be helpful. Scotto begin 666 winmail.dat M>)\^(C4&`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>[EMAIL PROTECTED](````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;[EMAIL PROTECTED];"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"``$& M@ ,[EMAIL PROTECTED]'[EMAIL PROTECTED]<`) ``````)@$!`Y &`"0%```B````"P`"``$````+ M`",```````,`)@``````"P`I```````#`#8``````!X`< `!````" ```&%F M9FEX97,[EMAIL PROTECTED]<427Y&<Y5\QZO&(0"J$F_K4XA5J+ [EMAIL PROTECTED] M# $````;````4TU44#I30T]45$] 04-#15-)1$5!3"Y#3TT```L``0X````` M0 `&[EMAIL PROTECTED](7W)[EMAIL PROTECTED]@$````8`````````"JE9LUO[K\1L(T*<\V9YYC" M@ ``"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"`0D0`0```&,!``!?`0``[0$``$Q:1G6*T#6)`P`*`')C M<&<Q,C4&,@#X"V!N9S0Q,)XU`?<"I /[EMAIL PROTECTED]: K 8'-E=# @!Q,"@'TE"H%V M")!W:PN 9#0=#&!C`% +`PNT-"!)*"=M( D`;Q)A9R!K`A %P',#<&44``0` M="$$(&]F('8$D'[EMAIL PROTECTED](&EX!Y%T;R#@:&5L<" 4\0$`%;"["0`6X&X(8 8Q M%))M%> 6;@?1!:!N#P(N($2V;P>1`'!Y`B 5`&L7L'\'X!6!&:$5&!8'$/ % M0&TX:6=H!4 !``"09V[W' `7$0:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"? %0!21=FT58Q>S/PJB"H0*@&57 M&2 >Q!5 91/P*Q7T,3P@/17P%G$&\!^_>#+S(.,+46-E'Z4>Q!/>&^#U%0!C M'/%G!; (D!O%)1)[EMAIL PROTECTED]"&!L9!R('Z5!QQJA'3 )<&-T:0(@)P6V8A4`%K)F M)S ?I5,%H"T"0&\>Q!'A`"O ``L``8 (( 8``````, ```````!&``````.% M`````````P`$@ @@[EMAIL PROTECTED] ```````$8`````4H4``'UN`0`>``6 "" & M``````# [EMAIL PROTECTED] `"P`)@ @@[EMAIL PROTECTED] MP ```````$8`````!H4````````#``J "" &``````# [EMAIL PROTECTED] MA0````````L`$X (( 8``````, ```````!&``````Z%`````````P`4@ @@ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ```````$8`````$(4````````#`!6 "" &``````# ```````` [EMAIL PROTECTED],`%X (( 8``````, ```````!&`````!B%```````` M"P`Q@ @@[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]"`?@/`0```! ````J MI6;-;^Z_$;"-"G/-F>>8`@'Z#P$````0````*J5FS6_NOQ&PC0ISS9GGF (! M^P\!````<P`````````XH;L0!>40&J&[" `K*E;"[EMAIL PROTECTED],```` M``````!.251!^;^X`0"J`#?9;@```$,Z7%=)3D1/5U-<07!P;&EC871I;VX@ M1&%T85Q-:6-R;W-O9G1<3W5T;&]O:UQO=71L;V]K+G!S= ```P#^#P4````# M``TT_3<```(!?P`!````-0```#Q,4$)"3$%)3D-!3D=+3$9%24E(1T]%4$5% M0T%!+G-C;W1T;T!A8V-E<VED96%L+F-O;3X``````P`&$ [EMAIL PROTECTED]<0" $` M``,`$! ``````P`1$ `````>[EMAIL PROTECTED]&4```!)34Q/3TM)3D=&3U)33TU% M3$E35%-/1E9%4EE!1D9)6$535$](14Q0345$159%3$]03D]53E-&3U)-64Y% M5T-/3DQ!3D=$3T5304Y93TY%2TY/5T]&04Y93$E35%-/1D%&1DE8`````-L8 ` end ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 14 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:50:05 -0500 From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions Damian Yerrick wrote: >My name is Damian, and I'm a conlanger. Welcome aboard, Damian! >Here's where I want help: >LEXICAL ICONICITY [...] >Are there some general procedures that govern lexical innovation >in natlangs and naturalistic conlangs? Has anybody successfully >implemented ding-dong or ta-ta in their conlangs? There are a few patterns that show up here and there (words for little things tend towards front vowels and words for big things tend to have back vowels in them etc etc) but they aren't hard rules and they don't stick in a lot of places (English "big" and "small" for example are the exact reverse of this). There's also onomatopoeia, but that's a very small part of any lexicon. A suggestion: if you're having difficulty generating an a priori vocabulary that sounds right, try an 'a posteriori' language -- start with an existing language and then go nuts with sound/grammar changes etc. >DEFAULT SETTINGS OF GRAMMAR > >I don't want to make euroclones all the time, but I don't want to >make an unspeakable language that violates fifty-two universals >either. What structures are "easier" for the developing hominid >brain to parse? For example, do learners intrinsically prefer >object-verb order or verb-object order? What about adjective-noun >or noun-adjective? Is there any appeal to iconicity for this? EVERYBODY knows that the word and phrase order of (pick your first language) is inherently more logical than the rest. I mean, "(phrase in your first language)"! What could be more straightforward? ... in other words, there's no way to answer this one without hearing from a horde of people who say the exact opposite. I personally find OV, head-final order very easy on the brain, maybe even more so than English's (mostly) VO structure. >CULTURAL-PHONETIC CORRELATION > >Does tendency for open or closed syllables, for softer or harder >sounds, or for tones or no tones, depend on culture? I've heard >of the Inuit and the Arabs, whose languages have fewer distinct >vowel heights and more back consonants because their harsh >environments make it painful to open the mouth to the elements >in order to produce low vowels. In addition, Tolkien's chaotic >orcs speak a phonaesthetically "harsher" language than his >lawful elves. Is such correlation the rule or the exception? I'd say it's an exception. There's this stereotype that good guys go "ellinnilathienithiethiaeaenennelli" and bad guys go "blug blag ugga chunk jukblag zoglogga gluk". I even saw one site** that prescribed these as rules to use in giving sounds to the language of your conculture (!). Tolkien had an aesthetic preference in sounds and it shows in which sounds he assigned to which cultures. But there's no reason why you MUST use his template. (I'm prejudiced, of course; by JRRT's standards my Rhean is an "ugly" language, but not by mine!) A lot was snipped above; sorry I can't be of more assistance beyond my opinions on the subjective stuff. M ** which I can't find anywhere now. Anyone wanna own up to writing it? ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 15 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:51:16 +0900 From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: affixes Warning: GMail. Sorry. Scotto Hlad wrote: > I'm looking for some lists of very affixes to help me develop nouns for my > new conlang. Does anyone know of any lists of affixes that might designate > different forms of nouns? > eg. > stem + affix1 = a tool Some examples from my native tongue, Korean. nal-: to fly / nalgae: wing be-: to rest one's head on / begae: pillow deop-: to cover / deopgae: cover ggal-: to lay (on the floor) / ggalgae: underlay jib-: to pick up / jibge: tongs ji-: to bear (load) / jige: A-frame jiu-: to erase / jiugae: eraser mag-: to block / magae: plug Seo Sanghyeon ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:24 +0900 From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions Damian Yerrick wrote: > DEFAULT SETTINGS OF GRAMMAR > > I don't want to make euroclones all the time, but I don't want to > make an unspeakable language that violates fifty-two universals > either. What structures are "easier" for the developing hominid > brain to parse? For example, do learners intrinsically prefer > object-verb order or verb-object order? What about adjective-noun > or noun-adjective? Is there any appeal to iconicity for this? If you don't want euroclones, there's a very easy way to avoid it: learn any non-European language! Then my problem is that all my languages look some sort of clone of Korean, my first language. :( All OV, agglutinative, converb... I found that I really can't create any sounding conlang with grammatical gender or complex verbal agreement. I just lose track of rules I made. Seo Sanghyeon ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 17 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:02:04 +0200 From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Workshops Review #04 Review #04 (covering the period from Feb 06 to Feb 12): I put authors' names in square brackets, and projects names in figure ones. A posteriori workshops: - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aboriconlangs/ "based on lgs of First Nations, Black Africa, Australian Aboriginals etc." No activity since Jan 13 - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticonlang/ "based on Celtic lgs" No activity since Aug 24, 2004. Is the group dead? - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eastasianconlangs/ "based on East Asian lgs: CJK, Indochina, India (both Aryan and Dravidic), Siberia, Pacific Ocean etc." Links between unrelated languages (continued). - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/germaniconlang/ "based on Germanic lgs" Silent - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pieconlang/ "based on Proto-IndoEuropean" Did PIE have /z/? Thematic vowels in PIE itself. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/romconlang/ "based on Romance lgs" Where to find a good Latin primer? (continued). How far does a language have to change until it is no longer a Romance language? [Paul Bennett] starts his own romlang. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slaviconlang/ "based on Slavic, Baltic lgs or Greek" No activity since Dec 16, 2004 - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uraliconlang/ "based on Uralic lgs" No activity since Aug 25, 2004 - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westasianconlangs/ "based on West Asian lgs: Semitic and other Afrasian, Turkic, North Caucasian etc." No activity since Jan 04 Other specialized workshops: - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neographies/ - conscripts: Silent. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/ - League of the Lost Languages - Silent. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/use_your_conlang/ - conlangs in use: Anyone ever think of making a conlang based on Nostratic? Alternative reconstructions of PIE. Sister groups: - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/artificiallanguages2/ Silent. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/langmaker2/ Silent. Groups in other languages: - http://espanol.groups.yahoo.com/group/ideolengua/ - in Spanish: Demonstrative pronouns in Ancient Greek. Declination and its loss: is it progress? How the language is born? Languages in LOTR movie. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ouglopo/ - in French: No activity since Jan 22. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/konlang_ru - in Russian: Silent. Enjoy your communication! -- Yitzik ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 18 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:42:23 +0000 From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions Damian Yerrick wrote: > My name is Damian, and I'm a conlanger. I've dabbled for > years, never "finishing" anything to the point that arbitrary > conversation is possible. I come to this list to ask for help > in getting past roadblocks. I've read some of the archives, > but not all 6 1/2 years of them. Here's where I want help: Greetings > LEXICAL ICONICITY > > When creating the a priori lexicon for Qenya (early drafts of > Quenya), Tolkien chose sound patterns that he felt "fit" a given > meaning. > http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/vice.htm > > However, I seem to have a dulled sense of aesthetics, possibly > caused by my Asperger syndrome that causes me to distrust vague > hunches. Much of the time, I can't seem to do better than creating > phonotactic rules and then randomly assigning Swadesh-list glosses > to sound patterns, possibly with the aid of a computer program. > Are there some general procedures that govern lexical innovation > in natlangs and naturalistic conlangs? Has anybody successfully > implemented ding-dong or ta-ta in their conlangs? It's not that Tolkien has special insight into the aesthetics of language; it's that he has special insight into _his_ asthetics of language. Such aesthetics are always personal, to the extent that I find it hard to make sense of the idea of "successfully implementing" aesthetics. I tend to use phonotactic rules & random generation to give me a start, too, since my aesthetic inventiveness is also pretty dim. But I try to find something that catches my fancy in the random results, and expand on that (usually with monomaniacal persistency). > CULTURAL-PHONETIC CORRELATION > > Does tendency for open or closed syllables, for softer or harder > sounds, or for tones or no tones, depend on culture? I've heard > of the Inuit and the Arabs, whose languages have fewer distinct > vowel heights and more back consonants because their harsh > environments make it painful to open the mouth to the elements > in order to produce low vowels. Sounds like an urban myth. In particular, I don't see why it's necessary to open the mouth to succesfully complete a gesture involving making your tongue low. Bear in mind that Arabic is only one of many languages that developed on the Arabian peninsula, even if it's the dominant one today. If all these other languages could be demonstated to have simple vowel systems, and we could be reasonably sure that it's not a sprachbund phenomenon, then maybe we might have ourselves some circumstantial evidence. But a better reason for the low number of distinctive vowel phonemes might be large array of consonants, which bear more functional load in the language. Hmm, I've read analyses of the Irish vowel system that postulate three underlying height destinctions, the rest of the surface complexity of the vowel system being conditioned by the local phonetic environment. Well, it does rain a lot here. (I know, you weren't implying simple system => harsh conditions). > In addition, Tolkien's chaotic > orcs speak a phonaesthetically "harsher" language than his > lawful elves. Is such correlation the rule or the exception? In conlangs? Might be a rule, then, since I'm sure there a lot of Tolkien-clone conlangs out there. If you're talking about natlanngs, I'm not sure what the example refers too. > CULTURAL-GRAMMATIC CORRELATION > > Likewise, are any grammatical qualities correlated to aspects > of the culture? Does an environmental or cultural constraint > correlate with an OV or VO preference, with obligate marking > of various properties of a noun or verb, or anything similar? I don't know. As evidence against the strong form of this, I'd point out how bilinguals in many places (e.g., Wales) use both VO and OV languages, in more or less the same cultural milieu. > I can see how a more paranoid culture might lead to evidentiary > markers becoming grammaticalized; are there other examples? I can see how a more paranoid culture might lead to evidentiary markers becoming used; but I don't see why grammaticalisation is likely or neccesary. Perhaps over a long time. If statements made about other, especially public, people in the USSR were more likely to be hedged ("... or so I hear", "... but it might not be true"), might that have lead to grammatical hedging markers? I don't think it did. For one thing, for grammaticalisation of forms, I guess you need one particular form or formula to be used in most occasions. I don't see how "free form" hedging involving whatever construction comes to mind at the moment, would lead to grammaticalisation. > SIMPLIFICATION > > I understand that the lexicon can be reduced to sizes that > may initially appear absurd while retaining expressiveness. > Evidence: A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every > meaning one can think of in 120 basic words. In a way completely lacking in specificity. > > FURTHER READING > > When I search for some of these topics, Google often gives me > results that look promising but say "Download this article for $30". > Once Google fails me for gratis web resources, and my local public > library's search engine fails me for print resources, what are some > good resources for learning about these subjects without spending > $500 on buying books and buying individual PDF article downloads? > Or is conlanging a rich man's hobby? Well, it can be done with a pencil & paper. But you're right; knowledge can be expensive. I know of no easy solution, but to use what you have. Such constraints might make the result more interesting, too :-). s. -- Stephen Mulraney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Klein bottle for rent ... inquire within. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 19 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:15:44 -0000 From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Damin http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and turtles,..." I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are not mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing that the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous. Charlie http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 20 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:24:15 +0100 From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Damin Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html > > "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and > turtles,..." > > I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are not > mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing that > the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous. Possibly, it's meant to parse as " .. for {large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs} and [for] {turtles} ...". Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 21 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:51:57 -0000 From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Damin --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html >> >> "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and >> turtles,..." >> >> I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are >>not mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing ? >>that the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous. >Possibly, it's meant to parse as " .. for {large sea-dwelling >mammals such as dugongs} and [for] {turtles} ...". Andreas IMHO I doubt it. Why not, then, write just that? I don't know what happens in other English-speaking countries, but I have heard countless times in the USA an exchange such as the following: A: "The turtle is an animal." B: "I thought turtles were reptiles." Charlie http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 22 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:05:04 -0500 From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 06:01:09AM +0100, Philip Newton wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:46 +0100, Carsten Becker > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > κ Virgo[1] > > κ Virginis? > > > a radius of 18.38x our sun and a rotation period of > > 53,000 days (cf. 25,400 days). > > Jörg said our sun has a rotation period of "twenty-something days", > yet you say it's twenty-five *thousand* days? It's definitely on the order of 25 days, not 25k. > At first I thought that might be a decimal comma, but you wrote > "18.38x" and not "18,38x". I think it was just a case of inconsistently translating from decimal comma to decimal point for the benefit of the intended audience. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 23 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:11:06 +0100 From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Damin Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > >> http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html > >> > >> "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and > >> turtles,..." > >> > >> I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are > >>not mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing ? > >>that the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous. > > >Possibly, it's meant to parse as " .. for {large sea-dwelling > >mammals such as dugongs} and [for] {turtles} ...". > > Andreas > > IMHO I doubt it. Why not, then, write just that? Um? Because that's what they wrote; the issue is what parsing they intended. > I don't know what > happens in other English-speaking countries, but I have heard > countless times in the USA an exchange such as the following: > > A: "The turtle is an animal." > B: "I thought turtles were reptiles." That's not a usage I've run across, but then I don't live in the states. I was just pointing out it wasn't necessarily an error per se; I can easily imagine myself writing it with the intended parsing I gave. Now, hopefully one'd discover the ambiguity on checking, but some things always slip thru. Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 24 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:34:16 +1100 From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Damin On 14 Feb 2005, at 11.51 pm, caeruleancentaur wrote: > --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >>> http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html >>> >>> "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and >>> turtles,..." >>> >>> I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are >>> not mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing ? >>> that the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous. > >> Possibly, it's meant to parse as " .. for {large sea-dwelling >> mammals such as dugongs} and [for] {turtles} ...". > > Andreas > > IMHO I doubt it. Why not, then, write just that? Because both are correct. One's ambiguous, sure, but the ambiguity wouldn't necessarily be noticed by the author. Even if he checked it, he wouldn't necessarily even see the ambiguity, because you don't always ... you see what you mean. It's why you get other people to read your drafts. > I don't know what > happens in other English-speaking countries, but I have heard > countless times in the USA an exchange such as the following: > > A: "The turtle is an animal." > B: "I thought turtles were reptiles." I certainly seem to think of mammals as the prototypical animals. I have no real difficulty considering birds animals, but I would have to think about whether insects are animals :) I'm not from the States. However: it's always a case of animal becoming more specific than traditionally defined, never mammal becoming more generic. I doubt that the author meant to use mammal to refer to non-warm-blooded, non-placental creatures that don't give milk or whatever an example of a non-mammal is. -- Tristan. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 25 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:59:55 -0800 From: Sam Drost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: PDF Creator addendum Another option is to print to a postscript file and get Ghost Script or GSView (can't remember which one, both are free though) and can convert postscript to pdf. --- Sam Drost If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin'. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Shannon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:43 PM Subject: PDF Creator addendum > --- Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > It appears to me that the OP was asking how to > > CREATE > > a pdf, not how to print one or turn it into a text > > file. To CREATE a PDF go here: > > http://www.pdf995.com/ > > > > --gary > > > > This is a FREEWARE/SHAREWARE PDF creator with built-in > advertising pop-ups in the free version. To get rid > of the advertising you can register the program for > $9.95. > > --gary > ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------