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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: OT: My first published hypertext up on BathHouse
From: Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Anything else to declare?
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Peter Kolb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
From: Jonathan Chang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: OT Duh... was ( Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything
Else to Declare)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Anything else to declare?
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: H-caret (was: McGuffey Readers in Tatari Faran)
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: H-caret (was: McGuffey Readers in Tatari Faran)
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Multilingual Childhood?
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Online Sheli Poetry Translation
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Online Sheli Poetry Translation
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:40:30 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Mulraney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>
>> According to the test above: INTP, 89, 38, 38, 11
>>
>> The problems with such tests can be summed up with question 3 at the
>> above url. "You feel at ease in a crowd, yes/no". Where's the "it
>> depends"-option? How do they define crowd? Large group? Small group? In
>> a big area? In a small area? People you know? Mostly unknown people?
>> Crowd existing for a purpose (like a march) or crowd that just happen
>> (waiting for the bus)? "you" being in a bad mood? "you" being happy?
>
> Typical NT complaint!
>
> s. (INTP)
:) Feelings of high distractability today.
I've taken this test multiple times, and always come up as ENFJ (although
with varying numbers): The Teacher. Up there with Mikhail Gorbachev. But
I'm totally with Taliesin here. This test in particular, posing everything
as a yes/no, is especially annoying, since it makes judgments based on an
excluded middle, so to speak. There's no "fuzzy logic" that would better
get at the fuzziness of human personality. Even the enneagram is annoying,
although it gives you five instead of two choices, and I gave up on it.
"You are sometimes mean to people." Very untrue, somewhat untrue, neutral,
somewhat true, very true. Well, under what circumstances? Intentionally?
Unintentionally? If you put neutral, does that mean that you are fifty
percent sure that you are sometimes mean to people? Define "sometimes."
Define "mean." Define "fifty percent."
I think it is FAR MORE FUN to take the Meyers Briggs test as a fictional
person, preferably one you see a lot of on TV. Such as Seven of Nine or
Data from Star Trek. Or Andy of Mayberry. Or Seinfeld. Or Gregory House,
M.D. Or a conworld character. Anybody try doing that? :) The trick is to
imagine yourself as *them* answering the questions.
Voyager's Borg-to-human convert Seven of Nine: INTJ, 22, 19, 56, 83
"Portrait of the Mastermind." She skipped a lot as irrelevant and/or
redundant. Extremely judging. Didn't understand the "center of the room"
question. What difference does that make?
Sheriff Andy Taylor of Mayberry: ISFJ 6, 1, 25, 11 "Portait of the Protector
Guardian." Patiently answered all of them. Predominantly feeling.
Doesn't believe that following the rules consistently leads to the best
results, unlike Barney Fife.
The new medical drama character Gregory House, M.D. INTP 33, 31, 56, 22
"Portrait of the Architect Rational." Answered some facetiously, skipped
others as too ambiguous and moronic; leaning towards "thinking."
Issytra, my very old, grandmotherly Teonaht translator: Ooh! Another ISFJ:
22, 19, 12, 56. Answered all of them patiently, merrily, and with a firm
sense that controlling one's emotions while being merciful is paramount.
Moderately judging.
The android Data on ST:TNG: ESTJ 56 1 62 89 "Portrait of the Supervisor."
(pretty good, huh?) Took the test patiently, answered every question, chose
NO for any that called for an emotional reaction. Was not wearing his
"emotion chip." Does not enjoy solitary walks because he does not "enjoy"
anything. Meanwhile, he's more extroverted than I am!
:)
Sally
Probable margin of error: fifty percent
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:46:21 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:54:11 +0100, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>From what I remember of a paper me and a friend had to do
>about Portugal in 6th grade, the numbers from 1 to 10 are
>similar to the following (Janko Gorenc: In *Portugese*,
>which is NOT a conlang):
>
>/um/, /dOI)S/, /t4ES/, ?, ?, /sEI)S/, ?, ?, ?, ?
>
>There seems to be a shift from /s/ to /S/ at least at the
>end of words. That'd explain why Portugese essentially
>sounds like Russian spoken by a Spanish.
:P
Seems like Portuguese is undergoing further lenition of /s/ in some
environments. In the future, some "progressive" dialects may
have /x/, /h/, or the like where /S/ is heard today. Supposedly, such
sound-changes occurred in the histories of the Slavic and IndoIranian
languages.
- Rob
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:03:20 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:44:15 +0200, Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>But then what if a new definite article develops, from a deictic or a
>pronoun or whatever? Then the old definite article might become
>understood as an indefinite article.
Is there any indication that the Semitic definite article *hal(-) is more
recent? From a syntactic point of view, it would seem to be *older*, since
it precedes nouns.
- Rob
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:01:13 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:39:12 +0200, Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> Given that we see -m in Hebrew and Akkadian, and -n in Arabic, I think
>> it's reasonable to reconstruct one marker, *-m, and an early
>> sound-change
>> *-m > -n in Arabic.
>
>Okay, this is making me actually go to the trouble of looking though my
>piles of papers from last year for my notes... :P
>Here we go...
>(note: this is being translated from Hebrew; apoligies for any
>translation artifacts that make it sound weird)
Oh, no! :P
Seriously, though, I'm not trying to argue about it. Just expressing my
own (rather novice, admittedly) observations.
>Ancient South Arabian: addition of |m| for indefinite. also |n| for
>definite (« "han"?) |klbn| vs. |klbm|
Do you know if |klbn| and |klbm| are attested in the same inscriptions
and/or texts? If so, then we can safely say that they are two different
markers. Otherwise, if |klbm| is attested first and |klbn| later, then
it's plausible that there's only one marker *-m which became *-n in South
Arabian (including Arabic). The least certain possibility is that |klbm|
and |klbn| are attested at the same time, but never together.
>(commentary: i adopted this for my Semiticonlang!)
>
>There is a universal phenomenon, where sometimes definite articles lose
>their power to definitize. Because of this there are those who claim
>that what is today an indefinite article (Arabic |tanwiin| -n, Akkadian
>-m) once was a definite article.
That's plausible, but why did it only mark the singular in Akkadian? Oh,
wait, I can answer my own question. As you said before, it could be used
for both singular and plural. So it had no "numeric force" to begin with.
Only later was it aligned to one grammatical number or another.
Question: Is the *-m element present in the dual? Arabic has nom. -a:n(i),
acc./gen. -ayn(i). Hebrew has non-terminal -ayim and terminal -Oyim, for
the absolute state only (never the construct state).
>> Also, since it marks only the singular in Arabic and Akkadian, and only
>> the plural in Hebrew, it follows that the marker originally had no
>> specific number connotation and could be used for both singular and
>> plural. Furthermore, the fact that it follows case-markings means
>> that it
>> was likely an enclitic demonstrative. Hebrew seems to have generalized
>> the oblique plural: *-i:-m > -im.
>
>In my notes, under PLURAL i have a comment about the Hebrew ending:
>
>|-m| < |*-ma|, the particle "ma"?
>The nasal was added late. The original form might be found in the
>construct form, without the nasal.
>(Hebrew) |devar _ma_| (=some thing (sic)) indefinite article!
There is an indefinite pronominal stem *ma- in Proto-Semitic. I think this
is the identity of the *-m ending. So it was probably an indefinite
article the entire time.
In the plural: devari: ma 'some things' > deva:ri:m 'things'.
>The plural of _alrajul(u)_ (i like transliterating the
>sometimes-absorbed |l| as an L all the time) has a long |u| at the end?
Yes, I believe it does.
- Rob
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 01:09:22 +0100
From: Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: My first published hypertext up on BathHouse
Philip Newton wrote:
>>The Shaqueans don't say "Hello" or "Good bye". When two Shaqueans meet, they
>>usually ask /ri'rja ?/ which literally means "Do/Are/Have thou?" but which
>>actually means "Can I speak to thee?" or "What can I do for thee?" depending
>>on which one speaks first. It's the way to ask "Can we interact now?" or "Do
>>thou allow me to enter thy personal space?".
[---CUT---]
> Saying "Do/are/have thou" is as ungrammatical for me as "do/are/have he".
>
[---CUT---]
>
> I'm not sure whether you were aware of these conjugation forms for
> "thou", which is why I pointed them out.
Of course, I know that using "thou" without the corresponding conjugation is
ungrammatical but I use it only to mark the difference in between singular
"you" and plural "you". I don't feel like inserting (sg.) or (pl.) in the
middle of every sentence.
Because (almost) everybody knows that "thou" is 2SG but much less people
know the corresponding conjugation, I don't use it and everybody still
understands.
What was thy question? ;-)
--
==================
Remi Villatel
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==================
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 01:45:57 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Quoting Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Mar 12, 2005, at 9:29 PM, Chris Bates wrote:
> >> There is a universal phenomenon, where sometimes definite articles
> >> lose
> >> their power to definitize. Because of this there are those who claim
> >> that what is today an indefinite article (Arabic |tanwiin| -n,
> >> Akkadian
> >> -m) once was a definite article.
>
> > I've never seen an example of a definite article turning into an
> > indefinite article (I don't speak Arabic though). It's true that
> > definite articles often lose their definiteness, but this isn't the
> > same
> > as turning into an indefinite article. The tendency in many languages
> > is
> > for usage to spread until the article indicates specificality rather
> > than definiteness and from there turn into a general NP marker. At this
> > point it covers both indefinite and definite meaning, but it hasn't
> > turned into an indefinite article.
>
> But then what if a new definite article develops, from a deictic or a
> pronoun or whatever? Then the old definite article might become
> understood as an indefinite article.
This happened to one of my conlangs, namely Telendlest; the old definite article
was generalized to most NPs (the chief exceptions being proper names,
"adjectival" genitives, and NPs with a demonstrative), and then a demonstrative
got demoted to definite article, with new demonstratives being derived from the
same root. Since the old def article now only occured on indef NPs,
reinterpretation as an indefiniteness marker was more-or-less automatic.
This causes no end of confusion to speakers of related languages that retain the
old article as a definite one.
Andreas
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 01:50:38 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anything else to declare?
Quoting Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
> > Cian Ross wrote:
> >
> >> On Tuesday 01 March 2005 08:30 am, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> >>
> >>> I would find it interesting to know the psychological types of
> >>> conlangers. I'm talking about the Meyers-Briggs personality type and
> >>> the enneagram personality. It would be interesting to see if there
> >>> is a correlation.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> INTP: very strong INT, very slight P.
> >>
> >> CKR
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> http://crlh.tzo.org/~cian/CR/conlang/
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Untypically I'm INFP (83 38 12 33).
>
>
> INTPs and INFPs seem to be vastly overrepresented here. NPs seem to be
> the norm.
So we ENTJs are deviants? :p
I was kind of surprised it put me down as E, tho.
Andreas
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:04:10 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
Sally Caves wrote:
> I think it is FAR MORE FUN to take the Meyers Briggs test as a fictional
> person, .... Or a conworld character. Anybody try doing that? :) The
> trick is to
> imagine yourself as *them* answering the questions.
===============================================================
I just took one of these (tickle.com), as if I were Shenji rona Kavatu, the
Kash Emissary to Earth of the Galactic Union. But I'm damned if I'll pay
$10.00 to find out the answer....I suppose I could search the archive for
the test we all took way back when, but do you (Sally?) or anyone, have the
URL handy now???? Thanks.
All this one told us was:
"you're a Chosen One! You're warm, giving, knowing, and patient. Chances are
you're not afraid to actively pursue your goals and dreams. As if all that
weren't enough, you pretty much set the standard for emotional health by
being filled with positive feelings and energy.
You'd be a great person in an emergency and you always return phone calls.
You're no fair-weather friend.
And that's just scratching the surface! "
ET, phone home....
But it doesn't explain why _certain_ world leaders won't meet with him
(advisers fear he'll exercise mind-control...) nor why various religious
sects believe he's the emissary of....Satan)
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:12:19 -0500
From: Peter Kolb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
This is the preliminary name formations, and pronunications, for the
yet-unreleased Goathd (Gôжd). Goathd means quest and was renamed from
Graumann... Graens... Goaenv... I am not willing to present this until I
got a goodly quantity of textual material to show.
I am stilling working out the mutations of the phonetics, and the
spelling, :-\ so they are not included. Some possibilities are
[m_N]->[m], [N\]->[n], [L\]->[l], [b]->[p]. [v]->[f], ... at the end of
an accented word segment, or the inverse. Tricky were the phonemes [s],
[z], and [j], as they are not present in the language's phoneme set.
The correct typeface is the old germanic black-writing with mostly latin
alphabet and some cryllic. I am certainly not certain that the message
would be presently properly presented.
Henrik: Henrik
[ˌhaɴˈʁɛk] [%haN\"R\Ek]
Björn: Bõrn
[ˈbʷˤɵʁɴ] ["b_w_G8R\N\]
Arthaey Angosii: Arßê Angocï
[ˌɒʁˈθa̻̦ː
ˌɒɴˈɡoɕˠɛː] [%QR\"Ta_m:
%QN\"go.s\E_G:]
Rachel: Radsel
[ˌʁɒˈɖʃaʟ] [%R\Q"d`SaL\]
Robert: Robert
[ˌʁoˈbʷaʁʈ] [%R\o"b_wQ\Rt`]
Roland: Roland
[ˌʁoˈʟɒɴɖ] [%R\o"L\QN\d`]
Rudy: Rudi
[ˌʁuˈɖɛ] [%R\u"d'E]
Lisa: Lica
[ˌʟɛˈɕa] [%L\E"s\a]
Sally Caves: Calli Kêv
[ɕɒʟˈʟɛ ˈka̻ːv] [%s\QL\"L\a
"ka_m:v]
Roger Mills: Rodjer Mil
[ˌʁoˈɖʒaʁ ˈмɛʟ]
[%R\o"d`ZaR\ "m_NEL\]
Philip Newton: Filip Nûton
[ˌfɛˈʟɛʷp
ˌɴu̻ːˈʈoɴ] [%fE"L\E_wp %N\u_m:"t`oN\]
Teoh: Teo
[ˈʈao] ["t`ao]
Jörg Rhiemeier: Ыörg Rimîr
[ˈʒˠoːʁɡ
ˌʁɛˈмɛ̻̦ːʁ] ["Z_Go:R\g
%R\E"m_NE_m:R\]
Andreas Johansson: Andrêc Zoancôn
[ˌɒɴˈɖʁa̻ːɕ
ˌʑoɒɴˈɕo̻ːɴ] [%QN\"d`R\a_m:s\
%z\o.QN\"s\o_m:N\]
Christian Thalmann: Krictan Xalman
[ˌkʁɛɕˈʈɒɴ
ˌðɒʟˈмɒɴ] [%kR\Es\"t`QN\ %DQL\"m_NQN\]
David Peterson: David Petercon
[ˌɖɒˈvɛɖ
ˌpʷɛʈɛʁˈɕoɴ] [%d`Q"vEd`
%p_wE.t`ER\"s\oN\]
Benct Philip Jonsson: Benk Filip Joncon
[ˈbʷaɴk ˌfɛˈʟɛʷp
ˌʒoɴˈɕoɴ] ["b_waN\k %fE"L\E_wp %ZoN\"s\oN\]
Thomas Weir: Tomac Wãr
[ˌʈoˈмɒɕ ˈwˤɨʁ]
[%t`o"m_NQs\ "w_?\1R\]
Carsten Becker: Karcten Bikir
[ˌkɒʁˈɕʈaɴ
ˌbʷɛˈkɛʁ] [%kQR\"s\t`aN\ %b_wE"kER\]
René Uittenbogaard: Rene ûtenbogärd
[ˌʁaˈɴa
ˌu̻ːʈaɴˈbʷoɡˠɒːʁɖ]
[%R\a"N\a %u_m:.t`aN\"b_wo.g_GQ:R\d`]
Tristan McLeay: Trictan Maklê
[ˌʈʁɛɕˈʈɒɴ
ˌмɒkˈʟa̻̦ː] [%t`R\Es\"t`QN\
%m_NQk"L\a_m:]
Isaac Penzev: Icäk Penzev
[ˌɛˈɕˠɒːk
ˌpʷaɴˈʑav] [%E"s_G\Q:k %p_waN\"z\av]
Steg Belsky: Steg Belcki
[ˈʃʈɒɡ
ˌbʷɒʟˈɕkɛ] ["St`Qg %b_wQL\"s\kE]
Peter Kolb: Peter Kolb
[ˌpʷaˈʈaʁ ˈkoʟʷb] [%p_wa"t`aR\
"koL\_wb]
CC!!
Peter Kolb.
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:30:38 -0800
From: Jonathan Chang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
Okay-dokey, I went and did the blinkin' test...
I am an INTJ
67 62 12 1
("Mastermind Rational")
Which does not really surprise me since I have been identified with the
Trickster and Warrior Archetypes by a Jungian "shrink". Both the Trickster
and the Warrior Archetypes are strategists par excellence.
::puts tongue 1/2 in cheek:: I guess I live up to the old WOG (Wiley
Oriental Gentleman) stereotype ;)
--
Hanuman Zhang
"Life is all a great joke, but only the brave ever get the point."
- Kenneth Rexroth
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:27:53 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm
OK, I did it again, from the POV of the Kash Emissary AFAICT.
INTJ, resp. 44, 75, 25, 78% --at least he's a Rational!!
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:32:43 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Mills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sally Caves wrote:
>> I think it is FAR MORE FUN to take the Meyers Briggs test as a fictional
>> person, .... Or a conworld character. Anybody try doing that? :) The
>> trick is to
>> imagine yourself as *them* answering the questions.
> ===============================================================
> I just took one of these (tickle.com), as if I were Shenji rona Kavatu,
> the
> Kash Emissary to Earth of the Galactic Union. But I'm damned if I'll pay
> $10.00 to find out the answer....I suppose I could search the archive for
> the test we all took way back when, but do you (Sally?) or anyone, have
> the
> URL handy now???? Thanks.
I gave it at the end of my post, having retrieved it from the list--I think.
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm
It's the only one I know, or have taken. Called HumanMetrics. Some
grammatical errors. Doesn't ask you for 10 dollars, gives you your four
letter designation :), and offers you a choice between Kiersey and Butt for
analysis. I think Butt's a little better. Is anyone taking another more
extended test? If so, I'll have to try these out again. :)
Sally
PS... Shenji rona Kavatu may be just as frustrated as Seven, Greg, and I
were at the yes/no options and the ambiguity.
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:38:20 -0500
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:04:10 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Sally Caves wrote:
>> I think it is FAR MORE FUN to take the Meyers Briggs test as a fictional
>> person, .... Or a conworld character. Anybody try doing that? :) The
>> trick is to imagine yourself as *them* answering the questions.
>===============================================================
>I just took one of these (tickle.com), as if I were Shenji rona Kavatu, the
>Kash Emissary to Earth of the Galactic Union. But I'm damned if I'll pay
>$10.00 to find out the answer....I suppose I could search the archive for
>the test we all took way back when, but do you (Sally?) or anyone, have the
>URL handy now???? Thanks.
I thought Sally gave the URL -- what I've used is
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
http://www.humanmetrics.com/index.htm#intro
>All this one told us was:
>
> "you're a Chosen One! You're warm, giving, knowing, and patient. Chances
> are you're not afraid to actively pursue your goals and dreams. As if all
> that weren't enough, you pretty much set the standard for emotional
> health by being filled with positive feelings and energy.
>
> You'd be a great person in an emergency and you always return phone calls.
> You're no fair-weather friend.
That's why I've always liked Shenji. I've considered making ["SEn.dZ)I]
(written Xnj) the 'Yemls word for "wise" or something like that.
> And that's just scratching the surface! "
>
> ET, phone home....
> But it doesn't explain why _certain_ world leaders won't meet with him
> (advisers fear he'll exercise mind-control...) nor why various religious
> sects believe he's the emissary of....Satan)
And this doesn't hurt either!
Jeff
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:42:42 -0500
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything Else to Declare)
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:30:38 -0800, Jonathan Chang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Okay-dokey, I went and did the blinkin' test...
>
>I am an INTJ
>67 62 12 1
>("Mastermind Rational")
>
> Which does not really surprise me since I have been identified with the
>Trickster and Warrior Archetypes by a Jungian "shrink". Both the Trickster
>and the Warrior Archetypes are strategists par excellence.
> ::puts tongue 1/2 in cheek:: I guess I live up to the old WOG (Wiley
>Oriental Gentleman) stereotype ;)
>
>--
>Hanuman Zhang
Coincidentally, I took it last week. I got INTP 56 38 1 44, but I don't
understand at all what that means. Maybe it's a winning European Lottery
number? Anyways, which category includes homicidal tendencies?
Jeff
> "Life is all a great joke, but only the brave ever get the point."
> - Kenneth Rexroth
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:56:19 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT Duh... was ( Re: Psych Tests and TOTAL hooey (Was: Anything
Else to Declare)
I wrote:
I suppose I could search the archive for
> > the test we all took way back when, but do you (Sally?) or anyone, have
> > the
> > URL handy now???? Thanks.
Sally Caves and otherw wrote:
> I gave it at the end of my post, having retrieved it from the list--I
> think.
>
> http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm
Write 100 times on the blackboard: I will read posts more carefully........
(I did find the URL in the archive)
>
> PS... Shenji rona Kavatu may be just as frustrated as Seven, Greg, and I
> were at the yes/no options and the ambiguity.
Yes, but he's learning about our habit of seeing everything in black/white,
yes/no etc.
>
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:01:48 -0600
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> It's the diphthong in the first syllable of the Esperanto word for
> Europe (Europo), for example, but I think that even in Esperanto, [Ew]
> (spelled |eu|) is uncommon. And off the top of my head, I can't think
> of any other language that has [Ew],
Plains cree has it all over the place. So does Lak. Phaleran
has it, but it's not frequent. :) Interestingly, although in
basilectal Chicagoan English /&/ is broken into [e&] or even [i&],
as in [ke&t], the [&] in /au/ surfaces as [&w] like in most American
dialects.
----------------------------------
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> But what am I saying? Surely <Europa>, <auto> and other borrowings have
> diphthongs, <Europa> with [Ew]. I'm not sure though.
I'm pretty sure that the E-o word <auto> does not have [Ew], but
straightforwardly [au].
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:02:03 -0600
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anything else to declare?
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Since this subthread seems to be populated entirely by INTPs, I'll declare
> myself here: INTP. I've done various MBTI test semi-regularly over the years,
> and I've always gotten the same result: INTP, with strong I.
Just for the record, like Andreas I'm an ENTJ (78-75-12-44), although
the particular test I just took probably exaggerates my extroversion
somewhat. I've always been a J, though.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:01:31 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: H-caret (was: McGuffey Readers in Tatari Faran)
Thanks to Sally and Tim for responding! I would, indeed, have
never known had you not, because I wouldn't ever have thought
to google it--I didn't think it was a thing that could be googled.
Anyway, even though I've never seen this thing (doesn't "pine"
refer to a type of tree in English...? ;), I do now "get" it, and I
think I'm better off for having yet another usele^H^H^H^H^Hinteresting
bit of trivia tucked away in my brain.
-David Jo^H^H^H^H^HJ. Peterson
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:48:31 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: H-caret (was: McGuffey Readers in Tatari Faran)
David J. Peterson wrote:
> Anyway, even though I've never seen this thing (doesn't "pine"
> refer to a type of tree in English...? ;)
PINE is a famous mail program from the University of Washington.
It standed for "Pine Is Not Elm", where ELM stands for
"ELectronic Mail", which was the name of another famous mail
program.
Yes, pine and elm refer to a type of tree, and it's intentional.
Nowadays, PINE developers claim that the name stands for
"Program for Internet News & Email" -- this is certainly not the
original acronym, because original PINE didn't include news reading
feature. As a parody of this, some claims that PINE stands for
"Painful Internet News & Email".
I wish you enjoyed these tidbits of computer history.
Seo Sanghyeon
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:55:47 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Multilingual Childhood?
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:10, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I am interested in reading about children who are raised with more
> than one native tongue. Can anyone provide me with links or articles?
FWIW, I was raised speaking English and Tok Pisin.
>
> Is there linguistic investigation of what it means to the child?
Not that I know of, at this moment.
> What
> effect it has on learning languages, etc.?
I grew up understanding that different peoples speak different languages, and
that meant only that they spoke different languages. I became fascinated by
languages as well - but that was me.
> Whether it frustrates a
> child? Is there only the obvious beneficial part to it or are there
> drawbacks, too?
Irritation with the deficiencies of English in relation to inclusive versus
exclusive first person plural. I hated that in English - it was like using a
hammer to extract teeth. On the other hand, English was of a higher social
ranking, and there were a lot more books in English. My dad was busy helping
translate the Bible into Tok Pisin, so one day it may have a decent
literature of its own, but not at the current moment.
> Is there any typical difference that can be expected
> and that might profit from special care? Maybe there are things that
> one has to be aware of?
>
> A friend of mine who will probably raise her children in three native
> languages (English, German, Mandarin) has asked me whether I had some
> information, and I'd like to redirect this question to the list.
>
> Personal views of members of this list who have experienced or watched
> a multilingual upbringing would be exciting, too.
>
> Bye,
> Henrik
Wesley Parish
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:48:24 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Online Sheli Poetry Translation
I completed a new page on my website awhile back, and,
after a successful test run, I'm going to announce it here.
Basically, I wrote a poem in Sheli, and I've put resources
online for anyone to translate it. I've attempted two
translations, and a friend of mine has done two, as well.
The page is here:
http://dedalvs.free.fr/sheli/poetry.html
The point of the page is not so much the poem, as the
translation. I've never been good at writing poetry,
so I was amazed that I was actually able to fit one
together. The point is to see how different people
translate it. The idea is based on a book by Eliot
Weinberger called Nineteen Ways of Looking at
Wang Wei. Here's an Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0918825148/104-0791613
-1996740?v=glance
The point of the book is to show nineteen different
translations of a single four line poem by Wang Wei.
They're all very different, and each conveys a unique
image (though some very, very poorly). I thought it
would be a neat experiment to try to replicate what
Weinberger did, but with a conlangy twist.
Anyway, I invite anyone to translate the poem. And,
as I say on the page, it doesn't necessarily need to be
a translation into English (though if it is, I'll probably
need your help in pinning down how your translation
works). I think it would be especially interesting to
translate the poem into a different language and then
back into English. It'd be like our translation relays,
except the translator isn't in the dark.
So, that's it. I look forward to any and all contributions.
-David (who needs a sig! I'll work on it)
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:41:41 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Mar 13, 2005, at 2:01 AM, Rob Haden wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:39:12 +0200, Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> Ancient South Arabian: addition of |m| for indefinite. also |n| for
>> definite (« "han"?) |klbn| vs. |klbm|
> Do you know if |klbn| and |klbm| are attested in the same inscriptions
> and/or texts? If so, then we can safely say that they are two
> different
> markers. Otherwise, if |klbm| is attested first and |klbn| later, then
> it's plausible that there's only one marker *-m which became *-n in
> South
> Arabian (including Arabic). The least certain possibility is that
> |klbm|
> and |klbn| are attested at the same time, but never together.
Sorry, i don't know... but i'd expect that the researchers wouldn't
have theorized that one is definite and the other is indefinite if they
didn't appear in the same texts.
> Question: Is the *-m element present in the dual? Arabic has nom.
> -a:n(i),
> acc./gen. -ayn(i). Hebrew has non-terminal -ayim and terminal -Oyim,
> for
> the absolute state only (never the construct state).
Don't know.
>> In my notes, under PLURAL i have a comment about the Hebrew ending:
>> |-m| < |*-ma|, the particle "ma"?
>> The nasal was added late. The original form might be found in the
>> construct form, without the nasal.
>> (Hebrew) |devar _ma_| (=some thing (sic)) indefinite article!
> There is an indefinite pronominal stem *ma- in Proto-Semitic. I think
> this
> is the identity of the *-m ending. So it was probably an indefinite
> article the entire time.
> In the plural: devari: ma 'some things' > deva:ri:m 'things'.
Exactly, that's pretty much what my notes were saying!
-Stephen (Steg)
"You know, I rather like this God fellow.
Very theatrical, you know.
Pestilence here, a plague there.
Omnipotence ... gotta get me some of that."
~ stewie griffin, _family guy_
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:42:08 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Mar 13, 2005, at 2:03 AM, Rob Haden wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:44:15 +0200, Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> But then what if a new definite article develops, from a deictic or a
>> pronoun or whatever? Then the old definite article might become
>> understood as an indefinite article.
> Is there any indication that the Semitic definite article *hal(-) is
> more
> recent? From a syntactic point of view, it would seem to be *older*,
> since it precedes nouns.
> - Rob
Why would that make it older?
-Stephen (Steg)
"You know, I rather like this God fellow.
Very theatrical, you know.
Pestilence here, a plague there.
Omnipotence ... gotta get me some of that."
~ stewie griffin, _family guy_
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:41:51 +0000
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
Thomas Wier wrote:
> From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>But what am I saying? Surely <Europa>, <auto> and other borrowings have
>>diphthongs, <Europa> with [Ew]. I'm not sure though.
> I'm pretty sure that the E-o word <auto> does not have [Ew], but
> straightforwardly [au].
Well, I never meant to suggest that (in Polish) <auto> had [Ew], only that
it presumeably has a diphthong (by which I meant [au]). Still, it's hard to
imagine that Zamenhof got the idea for including these diphthongs in E-o
*specifically* from Polish, since they're fairly marginal in that language, and
present mainly only in borrowings like the ones above, which have those, or
nearly those diphthongs in many languages.
OT: One thing I find amusing about the phonetics of Polish & Belarusian is
that they both have [w] sounds represented by modified letters; Polish uses
l-stroke <l> while Belarusian uses Cyrillic u-breve. Assuming that the u-breve
in Belarusian accurately represents the development of [w] from [u], just like
the l-stroke in Polish represents the development of [w] from [l], then we have
two neighbouring languages that like to mangle borrowed & inherited words with
the same rough effect (changing something to [w]), but it different places. So,
for example, while the name "Vladimir" occurs in Polish as [vwadi\mir]
"Wladymir",
in Bielorusan it begins with [wlad]! Similarly, for "slav" we have Polish [swav]
against (I think) Bielorusian [slaw], and so on :-).
s.
--
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:30:26 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Online Sheli Poetry Translation
* David J. Peterson said on 2005-03-13 09:48:24 +0100
> Basically, I wrote a poem in Sheli, and I've put resources
> online for anyone to translate it. I've attempted two
> translations, and a friend of mine has done two, as well.
> The page is here:
>
> http://dedalvs.free.fr/sheli/poetry.html
>
> The point is to see how different people
> translate it.
I've sent in a 30 second impromptu translation to English, but as if a
speaker with Taruven as L1 had made it. As you'll see, in Taruven
poetry[*], rhythm is all. I'll try translating it into Taruven proper
when the lexicon cathes up with yours. I mean, a word for *tusks*
already? :)
I'll work on one into Norwegian as well, but that'll take longer as my
vocabulary is smaller (and yes, it's my L1!)
[*] The types I've worked with so far anyway.
t.
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