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There are 22 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. OFFLIST: HUMOR: Re: Butterflies
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Tom Chappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7. Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11. Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: Aaron Grahn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. And I'm back
From: Fabian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: And I'm back
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. McD - I'm lovin' it (again)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: And I'm back
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:02:03 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> --- In [email protected], # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>My dictionnary says it comes from "poule d'Inde", "India hen".
>
>>It is likely that it were called "poule d'Inde", as guinea pigs are
>>still called "cochon d'Inde", "India pig", in french, before being
>>shortened in "d'Inde" and re-spelled "dinde".
>
> In Italian the prickly pear cactus is called "fichi d'India," Indian
> figs, even though they are a new world plant.
Quite so - they are figs from 'India in the _west_' (i.e. the Americas).
Remember what Columbus was looking for as he sailed the Atlantic and
what, indeed, he thought he had reached.
For the exact same reason the French turkey is "dinde' (<-- [poulet]
d'Inde) and the guinea pig is a "cochon d'Inde" and the native
pre-European inhabitants of the Americas, and their descendants, were
commonly called _Indians_.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:05:40 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, 23:51 CET, Tom H. Chappell wrote:
> And how do you say, in your conlang(s), the
> "chicken-peacock", known
> in English as "the Turkey" (the bird formerly known as
> "the Guinea-
> Fowl"), and in French as "l'Oiseau d'Inde" or "Dindon
> Sauvage", and
> in Spanish as "Guajalote Norten~o"?
Since my conpeople supposedly live on another planet not
unlike earth, they've got different animals than we have --
although when I need to translate an animal's name I always
write <animal> <word> (similar to Earth's <animal>) because
according to what I learnt in Biology at school, it's always
similar animals that fill a niche (word?). So according to
the evolution, why shouldn't there develop animals that are
similar to the one of the same niche on Earth?
There is no word for "animal similar to a turkey" yet,
though.
As for natlangs, in German they're called _Truthahn_ (sg, m)
and _Truthenne_ (sg, f) or _Pute_ (sg, f). Their meat is
called _Putenfleisch_.
Carsten
... not very active wrt conlanging these days
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:24:06 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
--- In [email protected], Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [snip]
> If a fruit bat eats fruit, does a cricket bat eat crickets? :-)
Help me fill in the fourth term of this proportion.
Fruit flies like a banana.
Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit bats like a papaya.
Time bats like ... ?
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:29:32 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OFFLIST: HUMOR: Re: Butterflies
--- In [email protected], Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Nov 3, 2005, at 2:52 PM, B. Garcia wrote:
> > [snip]
> > ... Tagalog
> > uses paruparo.
>
> Hebrew: _parpar_
>
> -Stephen (Steg)
>
Obviously Proto-Hebrew and Proto-Tagalog were dialects of the same
language! And Tagalog is more conservative!
;-)
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 12:23:46 -0800
From: Tom Chappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Yet Another Survey Question from Tom H.C. in MI;
I don't think ConLang ListGroup has talked about idioms since mid-July of this
year (2005 CE), and ConLang ListGroup hasn't talked about idioms in ConLangs
since mid-January of this year. ConCulture ListGroup hasn't talked about
idioms since the end of July last year (2004 CE), and hasn't talked about
idioms in ConLangs since the beginning of August year before last (2003 CE).
I want to ask people to take their own favorite idioms in the languages they
know -- whether L1s or L2s -- and;
1) if they feel like it, translate them into their ConLangs;
2) make up one or more equivalent idioms in their ConLangs, if there are any
(note: in case a ConCulture uses a NatLang, its idiom may nevertheless be
different from *here*'s);
3) provide an IMT (I think that stands for Interlinear Morphemic Translation)
gloss (if you can, and want to), as well as a word-for-word translation, of
your ConLang's/ConCulture's idiom(s), into your favorite languages, which I
hope will include English.
To start off, I am going to list a few synonymous idioms that I happen to like
(just pick out the one or ones you like best);
His elevator doesn't go all the way to the top.
He doesn't have both oars in the water.
He's a few bricks shy of a full load.
His lights are on, but there's nobody home.
(Alternatively:
Nice house -- nobody home.)
He's not playing with a full deck.
He couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions printed on the heel.
He's so dense, light bends around him.
His mind is write-protected.
If what you don't know can't hurt you, he's practically invulnerable.
It's hard to believe he beat 100,000 other sperm.
He's one prayer short of absolution.
He's playing baseball with a rubber bat.
He's running U.S. appliances on British current.
He's several nuts over fruitcake minimum.
The cheese slid off his cracker.
He couldn't find his own ass with a map and a compass.
He's overdue for reincarnation.
He is proof that God has a sense of humor.
He couldn't hit sand if he fell off a camel.
He couldn't spell "cat" if you spotted him the "C" and the "A".
He forgot to pay his brain bill.
He was hiding behind the door the day the brains were handed out.
He's skating on the wrong side of the ice.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, no, not even one of these is original with me.
Tom H.C. in MI
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 12:44:04 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Watch my reply-to--I have gmail.
> He doesn't have both oars in the water.
masola file "laasa". masola fifu niasa.
hand-GEN-3PS go-COMMAND up-TOWARD. hand-GEN-3PS go-PRESENT down-TOWARD.
He tells his hand to go up, but it goes down.
> He's a few bricks shy of a full load.
mesalafu soma.
hold-up-3PS-PRESENT building-ACCUSATIVE.
He is holding up a building.
> He couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions printed on the
> heel.
nosila iosa.
blind-3PS sun-TOWARD.
He is blind to the sun.
> He's so dense, light bends around him.
laalo esa laalama.
God NEGATE lift-3PS-ACC.
God himself cannot lift him.
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:42:24 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
Quoting R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> caeruleancentaur wrote:
> > --- In [email protected], # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>My dictionnary says it comes from "poule d'Inde", "India hen".
> >
> >>It is likely that it were called "poule d'Inde", as guinea pigs are
> >>still called "cochon d'Inde", "India pig", in french, before being
> >>shortened in "d'Inde" and re-spelled "dinde".
> >
> > In Italian the prickly pear cactus is called "fichi d'India," Indian
> > figs, even though they are a new world plant.
>
> Quite so - they are figs from 'India in the _west_' (i.e. the Americas).
> Remember what Columbus was looking for as he sailed the Atlantic and
> what, indeed, he thought he had reached.
>
> For the exact same reason the French turkey is "dinde' (<-- [poulet]
> d'Inde) and the guinea pig is a "cochon d'Inde" and the native
> pre-European inhabitants of the Americas, and their descendants, were
> commonly called _Indians_.
I've always found it rather infuriating that English use "Indian" both of the
Subcontinent and of the peoples of the Americas. Most other European languages
use different derivatives of "India", eg German _Inder_ "(subcontinental)
Indians", _Indianer_ "(American) Indians".
One of the English words should be changed to "Indish" or something.
Andreas
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:24:39 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
Andreas wrote:
<<
One of the English words should be changed to "Indish" or something.
>>
I certainly agree, but I doubt it'll happen. We're still trying to
get rid of the football team name the Washington Redskins. It's
just abominable! It'd be like calling a team the Darkies. And yet,
after many, many court cases (I believe there's one every single
year), the name remains. I suppose if we had an English Academy
of some kind, these kinds of changes would be easier to make.
(Of course, if we did, English might still be described as an SOV
case language, so I suppose we should count our blessings...)
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:30:47 -0500
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Tom Chappell wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> To start off, I am going to list a few synonymous idioms
> that I happen to like (just pick out the one or ones you
> like best);
>
> His elevator doesn't go all the way to the top.
>
> He doesn't have both oars in the water.
>
> [snip]
I'm sure many people will also consider these to be "idioms,"
but to me they are simply "expressions." To me, an "idiom" is
some set phrase which does not quite follow the normal rules
of grammar, such as:
"My father said there'd be trouble if I didn't mow the lawn, so
I guess I better had."
Here, "I better had" is what I would call an idiom. It doesn't
make sense under the normal rules of English grammar, but
every native English speaker knows what it means. Another
example is
"I will try and attend the meeting."
Here, "and" doesn't quite make sense. The expected word
would be "to." (To me, the use of "and" implies "I will try the
meeting and I will attend the meeting.")
--Ph. D.
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:46:27 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Watch my reply-to.
By definition: an expression is any common phrase, adage, axiom, etc.
An idiom is anything that doesn't mean what it literally says, which
has a meaning that people still will understand.
On 11/13/05, Ph.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tom Chappell wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > To start off, I am going to list a few synonymous idioms
> > that I happen to like (just pick out the one or ones you
> > like best);
> >
> > His elevator doesn't go all the way to the top.
> >
> > He doesn't have both oars in the water.
> >
> > [snip]
>
> I'm sure many people will also consider these to be "idioms,"
> but to me they are simply "expressions." To me, an "idiom" is
> some set phrase which does not quite follow the normal rules
> of grammar, such as:
>
> "My father said there'd be trouble if I didn't mow the lawn, so
> I guess I better had."
>
> Here, "I better had" is what I would call an idiom. It doesn't
> make sense under the normal rules of English grammar, but
> every native English speaker knows what it means. Another
> example is
>
> "I will try and attend the meeting."
>
> Here, "and" doesn't quite make sense. The expected word
> would be "to." (To me, the use of "and" implies "I will try the
> meeting and I will attend the meeting.")
>
> --Ph. D.
>
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:38:34 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
tomhchappell wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>[snip]
>>If a fruit bat eats fruit, does a cricket bat eat crickets? :-)
>
>
> Help me fill in the fourth term of this proportion.
>
> Fruit flies like a banana.
> Time flies like an arrow.
> Fruit bats like a papaya.
> Time bats like ... ?
an eyelash?
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:19:45 -0800
From: Aaron Grahn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
An eyelash is pretty good, but why should time bat like one? There was
never a good reason for time flies to like an arrow, seeing as there is
no such thing as a time fly, so there need be no reason for time bats to
like an eyelash. But how does a papaya bat, anyway? The whole thing is
Marxist anyway.
þ
Herman Miller wrote:
> tomhchappell wrote:
>
>> --- In [email protected], Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Help me fill in the fourth term of this proportion.
>>
>> Fruit flies like a banana.
>> Time flies like an arrow.
>> Fruit bats like a papaya.
>> Time bats like ... ?
>
>
> an eyelash? .
>
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:45:41 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
--- In [email protected], Tom Chappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Yet Another Survey Question from Tom H.C. in MI;
>His elevator doesn't go all the way to the top.
>He doesn't have both oars in the water.
>He's a few bricks shy of a full load.
>His lights are on, but there's nobody home.
>(Alternatively:
Nice house -- nobody home.)
>He's not playing with a full deck.
>He couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions printed
on the heel.
>He's so dense, light bends around him.
>His mind is write-protected.
>If what you don't know can't hurt you, he's practically
>invulnerable.
>It's hard to believe he beat 100,000 other sperm.
>He's one prayer short of absolution.
>He's playing baseball with a rubber bat.
>He's running U.S. appliances on British current.
>He's several nuts over fruitcake minimum.
>The cheese slid off his cracker.
>He couldn't find his own ass with a map and a compass.
>He's overdue for reincarnation.
>He is proof that God has a sense of humor.
>He couldn't hit sand if he fell off a camel.
>He couldn't spell "cat" if you spotted him the "C" and the "A".
>He forgot to pay his brain bill.
>He was hiding behind the door the day the brains were handed out.
>He's skating on the wrong side of the ice.
I'm having trouble considering the preceding to be idioms, but I'm
not sure why. I see them as attempts by the pop culture (Hollywood)
to be clever & they may be funny in the original context, but I
don't think they'll last. How long have we been saying in
English, "It's raining cats & dogs"? That to me is an idiom,
grammatically correct but semantically nonsensical. The above
phrases are grammatically correct, but they are not nonsensical.
There is a transference of meaning, but the sentences still somehow
ring true. There may be no such thing as a brain bill, there never
was a day when brains were handed out, one can't skate on the wrong
side of the ice, yet in some way they are logical. It is never
possible for it to rain cats and dogs, but the transferred meaning
is quite clear, at least for speakers of English.
Equivalent expressions in other languages are more logical.
Spanish: llueve a cántaros, it is raining by the buckets.
French: il pleut des hallebardes, it is raining halberds.
Italian: piove a catinelle, it is raining by the basins.
German: es regnet Bindfaden/Strippen/in Strömen, it is raining
threads/strings/in streams; es gießt wie mit Mollen/Scheffeln, it
pours as if with beer-glasses (I love this one!)/bushels.
These all speak to the large quantity or the fierceness of the rain,
but are somehow logical. "It is raining cats and dogs" is not
logical. Yet I can't say that an idiomatic expression has to be
logical. Maybe I want an idiom to have stood the test of time!
I'm just reflecting out loud.
I have not yet started to create such idiomatic expressions in
Senjecan, but I can start here.
rijáðrëßômi nimêrsa.
rijáðr-ëß-ôm-i n-i-µêrs-a.
waterfall-great-mutative-pl. it-pres. time-rain-indicative
great-waterfalls it-rains.
ß [dz)] = augmentative suffix.
µ = m_0
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 07:00:34 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
--- In [email protected], "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"My father said there'd be trouble if I didn't mow the lawn, so
>I guess I better had."
>Here, "I better had" is what I would call an idiom. It doesn't
>make sense under the normal rules of English grammar, but
>every native English speaker knows what it means.
This is not an idiom to me (although I would have said "had
better." It is merely an elliptical sentence, "so I guess I had
better mow the lawn." It makes perfect sense to me.
>Another example is "I will try and attend the meeting." Here, "and"
>doesn't quite make sense. The expected word would be "to." (To me,
>the use of "and" implies "I will try the meeting and I will attend
>the meeting.")
To me, this is just an example of poor English; there's nothing
idiomatic about it. "Try" and "attend" are not equivalent terms to
be joined by a co-ordinating conjunction. "Meeting" is not the
dirrect object of "try," but of "attend." This should be rather a
finite verb "try" with a dependent infinitive. The use of "try and"
in place of "try to" is unacceptable in the AHD to 79% of the Usage
Panel. It is unacceptable to me as well, but the AHD never asked
for my opinion.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 07:17:19 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
--- In [email protected], tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Another message from Charlie? Sorry, folks, I can't sleep!
>Help me fill in the fourth term of this proportion.
>Fruit flies like a banana.
>Time flies like an arrow.
>Fruit bats like a papaya.
>Time bats like ... ?
I don't believe it can be filled in, at least in the clever sense of
the first pair. The cleverness of the first pair depends on the use
of "flies" as, first, a noun, then, as a verb. The first one is a
literal expression. The second is an "anthropomorphic"
(theriomorphic?) expression that gives time the ability to act as an
animal, equating the swiftness of time's passing with the flight of an
arrow (which can also fly).
The first expression of the second pair is, again, a literal
expression. (IMO, both first expressions are a bit forced, however,
since I think in English we would normally say "bananas"
and "papayas.")
However, the second expression of the second pair makes no sense
whatsoever. Time bats like an eyelash? What does it mean to say that
time flutters? Time bats like an eye? What does it mean to say that
time is surprised. Time bats like a Los Angeles Dodger? (Lord, I
hope I got that team right!!) What does it mean to say that time hits
a ball?
There! Now maybe I can get some sleep!
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:47:21 +0900
From: Fabian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: And I'm back
Hi guys
Miss me?
Many moons ago, I had Demuan as my pet project. Two computers (one left
behind when I left a country, the other melted) later, I want to revive
the project, but I seem to be missing many of my original notes. Does
anyone have any of my old notes, or is there an archive of the mailing
list I can search?
Oh, and are there any conlangers in Tokyo these days?
-
Fabian
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:16:11 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: And I'm back
Hi!
Welcome back to the list! We missed you! :-))))
Fabian writes:
>...
> Many moons ago, I had Demuan as my pet project. Two computers (one
> left behind when I left a country, the other melted) later, I want to
> revive the project, but I seem to be missing many of my original
> notes.
Oh, that is a sad thing indeed.
> Does anyone have any of my old notes, or is there an archive of
> the mailing list I can search?
The normal listserv archives:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html
**Henrik
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:05:31 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
On 11/14/05, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >"My father said there'd be trouble if I didn't mow the lawn, so
> >I guess I better had."
>
> >Here, "I better had" is what I would call an idiom. It doesn't
> >make sense under the normal rules of English grammar, but
> >every native English speaker knows what it means.
>
> This is not an idiom to me (although I would have said "had
> better." It is merely an elliptical sentence, "so I guess I had
> better mow the lawn." It makes perfect sense to me.
"I better had" wouldn't work in my 'lect either; it would be
"I had better" or more likely "I'd better". And it is an idiom;
"to have better" as synonymous with "I must, I ought to"
is nonliteral and peculiar to English, as becomes obvious
when you try to translate it literally into another language:
*Mi pli bone havis trancxi la gazonon
*J'avais mieux ...
It doesn't work with any other tense or mood of "to have"
in English, either; *"I will have better", *"I would have had
better", *"I have better".... So definitely an idiom.
I'd say only a few of the phrases cited by Tom in his
first message are conventional idioms; the others
are witty metaphors or exaggerations.
For instance, "dense" has an idiomatic meaning
of "stupid" in addition to its literal physical-property
meanings, but "He's so dense, light bends around him"
is a witticism based on that idiom, not linguistically much
different from other insult-jokes like "He's so fat he needs
his own zip code" or such-like.
> >Another example is "I will try and attend the meeting." Here, "and"
> >doesn't quite make sense. The expected word would be "to." (To me,
> >the use of "and" implies "I will try the meeting and I will attend
> >the meeting.")
> To me, this is just an example of poor English; there's nothing
> idiomatic about it. "Try" and "attend" are not equivalent terms to
> be joined by a co-ordinating conjunction. "Meeting" is not the
> dirrect object of "try," but of "attend." This should be rather a
> finite verb "try" with a dependent infinitive. The use of "try and"
To me this is colloquial but not really substandard.
The fact that most native speakers of the English dialects
concerned will understand it in spite of its not being
logical suggests that it is an idiom in those dialects.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/review/log.htm
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:08:14 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: McD - I'm lovin' it (again)
Hey all,
We've had something about McD's slogan some time ago, but
I've got another question not related to the original one:
As you probably know, McDonalds has their current (?) slogan
"I'm lovin' it" on their beakers and paper bags. Apart from
the meaning and the ability to read it there is English (I'm
lovin' it), French (C'est tout ce que j'aime), German (Ich
liebe es), Arabian (???), Chinese (???), Turkish (Is,te bunu
serviyorum) -- and one that I cannot identify. It reads
"Love ko 'to". Which language is this? What do the Arabian
and Chinese bits say transcribed into Latin?
Thanks,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:43:32 -0500
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
On Nov 13, 2005, at 6:30 PM, Ph.D. wrote:
> "I will try and attend the meeting."
>
> Here, "and" doesn't quite make sense. The expected word
> would be "to." (To me, the use of "and" implies "I will try the
> meeting and I will attend the meeting.")
> --Ph. D.
In my experience, or maybe just in my own idiolect, "try and" has a
greater degree of certainty than "try to". As in, if i say i'll 'try
TO' do something there's a possibility that it won't happen, but if i
say i'll 'try AND' do something i'm saying that there's very little
chance that it won't happen.
-Stephen (Steg)
"Dime ladino d'ande venes
ke te kero konoser
Dime si futuro tenes
Yo te vo a defender."
~ de un artikolo en el listserv Ladinokomunita
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:44:51 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: And I'm back
Welcome back then!
I don't remember your name, though, nor your conlang. I only joined two
years ago. You can get the old logs (from 1997 to now) by sending the line
e.g. "GET CONLANG LOG0511B" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (without title
line of course!). That way, you'd get last week's messages in one file. When
splitting this into individual emails, be careful of viruses and such. At
the end of 1999, the list was full of mails containing the Happy99 virus.
Cost me a whole afternoon to get rid of this beast. Since there is a
significant line between all those emails, splitting is not that difficult.
I've got the archives as far as they're available from 1991 to sometime in
mid-2000, FWIW.
Cheers,
Carsten
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:15:36 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Steg Belsky wrote:
> On Nov 13, 2005, at 6:30 PM, Ph.D. wrote:
> > "I will try and attend the meeting."
> >
> > Here, "and" doesn't quite make sense. The expected word
> > would be "to." (To me, the use of "and" implies "I will try the
> > meeting and I will attend the meeting.")
>
>
> In my experience, or maybe just in my own idiolect, "try and" has a
> greater degree of certainty than "try to". As in, if i say i'll 'try
> TO' do something there's a possibility that it won't happen, but if i
> say i'll 'try AND' do something i'm saying that there's very little
> chance that it won't happen.
>
How odd...my reaction is just the opposite, or maybe it all depends on
context?
"I'm going to try to climb Mt.Everest" --- yes indeed.
"I'm going to try and climb Mt.Everest" -- at some point, maybe
OTOH I feel very little difference between--
"I'll try to be there at 9 o'clock" vs. "I'll try and..." (but even here
"try to" seems to me a more certain promise)
Interesting that "try and" only works with "try" in the infinitive,
imperative and future--
INF. to try to... ~ to try and...
IMP. Try to... ~ Try and...
FUT. exs. already given
I feel, too, that these work best in the positive, not in the negative.
In other tenses, all are * with "and"--
Pres: he tries to..., I'm trying to...
Past: he tried to..., he was trying to...
Perfect tenses: he has/had/will have tried to... etc.
Of course, "he tried and succeeded/failed" is another matter entirely.
My grade-school grammar teachers railed and railed against "try and...", but
with minimal success :-)
ObConlang!! Kash avoids the problem by using a serial verb construction--
e.g. maçasa(to) manahan... 'he (will) try to eat...'
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