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There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: OT: [TECH] MySQL 4.1.11 and Unicode I/O
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Test for middle voice?
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Test for middle voice?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Test for middle voice?
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Test for middle voice?
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Test for middle voice?
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: OT: [TECH] MySQL 4.1.11 and Unicode I/O
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:46:47 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
*From:* Tom Chappell
*Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:57 PM
*Subject:* Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or
ConCulture
Can any of you give us near-equivalent ConLang expressions, like
Charlie did for Senjecan? That's the kind of thing I was after. I
hoped it would be fun. Since nothing I have is more than a
sketchlang so far, I'd have to improve something to do so myself.
But don't you "copper off" as we'd say here ("abkupfern", to copy
someone else's work for one's own purposes, i.e. steal intellectual
property) -- another idiom. I haven't worked on idioms and 'set phrases'
so much yet, so I cannot give you examples, except maybe _Angutáy!_ for
"Thank You" which is from _Ang cutáyin!_ resp. _Cutáyang!_ for "I
thank". Not very imaginative.
Cheers,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:58:14 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
--- In [email protected], Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Taliesin wrote:
>
> > * R A Brown said on 2005-11-18 08:38:35 +0100
> >> You are, of course, correct. I guess we should amend Trask thus:
> >> "An expression consisting of two or more morphemes whose meaning
> >> cannot be simply predicted from the meanings of its constituent
> >> parts."
> >
> > I don't think this is wise. In English it might be so that a
> > compound ceases to be a compound as soon as it needs its own
> > entry in a dictionary, but this is not necessarily the case in
> > other languages.
>
> I'm getting the impression there is a lot of overlap between
> compounds (transparent, semi-transparent, or totally obscure),
> metaphors, and outright idioms (like 'pulling someone's leg', 'kick
> the bucket').
Speaking of compounds --
I should inject at this point in the discussion, Panini's
classification of compounds into amredita, bahuvrihi, dvandva,
karmadharaya, and tatpurusha.
amredita -- iterative -- day-to-day, one-for-one, house-by-house
bahuvrihi -- characteristic -- lacewing, pickpocket, flatfoot
dvandva -- described by both elements -- fighter-bomber, blue-green,
freeze-dry
karmadharaya -- one element describes the other element, but the
compound denotes something yet more specialized -- blackbird,
blackboard, whitewash, gentleman
tatpurusha -- one element modifies the other element determinatively,
completely specifying the meaning of the compound -- footstool,
doghouse, wallpaper, overripe, undermine, takeout, lawsuit, armchair,
raincoat
http://www.answers.com/topic/english-compound
does a better job for English, of course, since Panini was working on
Sanskrit and didn't know English.
> Indonesian has lots of phrasal compounds that need special
> definition (usually under both terms), e.g. _rumah sakit_
> (house+sick) 'hospital' (Kash compounds house+health for this, a
> nicer combination I think). Literally it could mean 'a sick house'
> (or building)-- a concept so far limited to our "advanced" Western
> world I hope.
German's "Krankhaus" meaning "hospital" comes from "sick"+"house",
doesn't it?
I know German's Western, but I don't know how they say a "sick"
building.
--- I'm getting kicked out, so I have to go now. Sorry.
Tom H.C. in MI
> Come to think of it, I suspect Kash has more than its share of such
> semi-transparent or obscure compounds and forms-- e.g. a lot of the
> accidental verbs with prefix caka-, like caka/ñoni 'to nitpick,
quibble'
> (ñoni 'test, try'). Or ca/kanjik 'gluttonous; s.o. who'll eat
anything (fig.
> gullible)' (hanjik 'bite of food, mouthful'). And related
ca/kacip 'picky
> about one's food; (fig.) fastidious', vele ('give') hacip 'to give
a small
> bribe/payoff' (hacip 'a little bite/nibble of food') and many more.
And you
> could make nonce-forms like caka/fanu 'obsessed with the number 8'
(fanu
> '8').
>
> >
> > Take for instance the word/compound "redcap" (a mythological
creature
> > IIRC).
>
> Mythological?? Eh? Nowadays it might as well be....;-)) Back in the
days
> when the US had a functional railway system, a redcap was a porter
in the
> station. They did wear official caps, though I don't remember if
they were
> red (it was a very long time ago), but at some point I suppose they
did.
> Now we have _skycaps_ at airports; not too long ago they actually
carried
> your baggage in; now they just check you in at the curb and throw
your bag
> onto a cart or conveyer belt. They may or may not wear a cap.......
>
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:18:19 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
--- In [email protected], Tom Chappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Can any of you give us near-equivalent ConLang expressions, like
>Charlie did for Senjecan? That's the kind of thing I was after. I
>hoped it would be fun. Since nothing I have is more than a
>sketchlang so far, I'd have to improve something to do so myself.
As I have said before, creating vocabulary is the most interesting
part of conlanging to me. I have come across a few words in the
dictionary which may be of interest. I like using compound words to
express nuances of a basic word. These words all use "bear," as in
ursus, as the modifier.
rþßêlcin; rþßen, bear, + êlcin, hungry = ravenous
rþßëpââltin; rþßen, bear, + pââltin, wide = huge, enormous
rþßëßêmvin; rþßen, bear, + ßêmvin, toothed = grumpy
ß = dz); c = k.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End forwarded message ---
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:40:34 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Tom Chappell wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "tomhchappell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: November 19, 2005 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
> Speaking of compounds --
>
> I should inject at this point in the discussion, Panini's
> classification of compounds into amredita, bahuvrihi, dvandva,
> karmadharaya, and tatpurusha.
>
> amredita -- iterative -- day-to-day, one-for-one, house-by-house
>
> bahuvrihi -- characteristic -- lacewing, pickpocket, flatfoot
>
> dvandva -- described by both elements -- fighter-bomber, blue-green,
> freeze-dry
>
> karmadharaya -- one element describes the other element, but the
> compound denotes something yet more specialized -- blackbird,
> blackboard, whitewash, gentleman
>
> tatpurusha -- one element modifies the other element determinatively,
> completely specifying the meaning of the compound -- footstool,
> doghouse, wallpaper, overripe, undermine, takeout, lawsuit, armchair,
> raincoat
Thanks!! Kash certaily has all of those. I was always a little confuzzed
about the names......
> --- In [email protected], Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Indonesian has lots of phrasal compounds that need special
> > definition (usually under both terms), e.g. _rumah sakit_
> > (house+sick) 'hospital' (Kash compounds house+health for this, a
> > nicer combination I think). Literally it could mean 'a sick house'
> > (or building)-- a concept so far limited to our "advanced" Western
> > world I hope.
>
> German's "Krankhaus" meaning "hospital" comes from "sick"+"house",
> doesn't it?
> I know German's Western, but I don't know how they say a "sick"
> building.
(Maybe German architects and builders are more careful...or don't use so
many toxic products? :-))) I always suspected that in the process of
rebuilding/rehabbing my own house (my builder friend was a great fan of
construction adhesive), we created a sick building-- I developed asthma when
I moved in. Or maybe we just disturbed century- old moulds etc. :-((( )
I think I've come across Engl. "sickhouse" too; we certainly have madhouse,
slaughterhouse and others. I just checked my little Dutch dict.-- like
German, 'hospital' is ziekenhuis-- which could be the source of the
Indonesian phrase.
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:13:36 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: [TECH] MySQL 4.1.11 and Unicode I/O
On 11/19/05, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> When leave the "Abfrage" (Query) dialogue empty, MySQL will print out
> all data that is stored in the database, as shown in ./problem_1.jpg. In
> my case at least, where there is supposed to be IPA, there are only
> questionmarks printed out.
Not the case here. Example from my run:
Momentan insgesamt 17 Einträge in der Datenbank gespeichert.
#12, *-ang* /ÉÅ/ *article* (animate, suffix): *the*
mehirang â the tree
Marks the 'agent' θ-role on a noun.
*Hinzugefügt am: 2005-11-06* [
edit<http://www.thereeds.org/ayeri_dictionary/index.php?go=edit&id=12>]
[
delete <http://www.thereeds.org/ayeri_dictionary/index.php?go=delete&id=12>]
I'm using MySQL 4.1.9 and PHP 5.0.3 on Linux with Apache 2.0.53 (via
mod_php).
I assume you don't normally have trouble displaying Unicode in your browser,
so my iniitial guess is that your PHP engine is not outputting a
Content-TYpe: header including the charset=utf8 part. I'd check that first.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:38:44 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
tomhchappell skrev:
> http://www.answers.com/topic/english-compound
> does a better job for English, of course, since Panini was working on
> Sanskrit and didn't know English.
He couldn't have known English since English didn't exist yet
when he lived, only Common Germanic.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panini_%28grammarian%29>
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 01:29:37 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Test for middle voice?
Hi!
R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>... In the strict sense, English does not have a middle _voice_,
>i.e. a grammatically category distinguished morphologically from
>active and passive. ...
I'd say that modern English does have some kind of systematic middle.
More than than, say, German. You have a lot of transitive verbs that
work well intransitively for the object* of the transitive verb used
as the *subject* of the transitive one. This is quite close to a
distinct syntactic category, and it is often kind of a middle voice:
Verbs I have in mind:
act: I fill the cup.
med: The cup fills.
in contrast to:
pass: The cup is filled.
Some things work in German, too, but less systematically (e.g. 'to
cook' works the same in German, but 'to fill' needs a reflexive
pronoun to work).
Etc.
The way I intuitively understood middle voice was looking at some
examples of Ancient Greek. E.g. that 'to appear' (phainomai, the stem
of 'phenomenon') is middle voice of 'to show'. It's clear that 'to be
shown' (the passive voice) is not the same as 'to appear' (the middle
voice) and this difference is just the point: it is shown, but no-one
shows -- the agent is missing (nicely compares to 'the cup is filled'
-- 'the cup fills)'.
This example also shows (for me) quite clearly the link between the
reflexive nature of the Greek middle voice, and OTOH, why many e.g.
German uses a reflexive to immitate middle voice ('die Tasse füllt
*sich*'): 'to show oneself' is close to 'to appear', and I think this
reflexive nature stems from the 'pure' middle nature. Of course, an
entity without any control cannot show (or fill) *itself*, but it
appears (or 'fills'). This is the original middle nature. But when
humans appear, they strictly show themselves (with control).
This is a personal explanation, or way of understanding. But maybe it
helps in understanding the middle voice intuitively. :-)
**Henrik
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 01:51:43 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Hi!
R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> > componding again to keep my life interesting. Will you use regular
> > derivation with only few roots like polysynthetic (enge)langs?
>
> No - for the simple reason it doesn't seem to work. I do not want to
> replicate the things that I have criticized Speedwords for. This means
> that affixes need to be _precisely_ defined. I cannot have vaguely
> defined concepts like "association", "special", "general" which then in
> practice overlap one another in quite unpredictable ways. And if there
> to be antonym & complement affixes, these need to be clearly defined and
> applied strictly & consistently.
Ok. In West-Greenlandic, my favourite cited example is the school,
the 'learning-place'. It is a derivation of 'learn' + 'place'. The
'place' derivation is clearly defined, much more so than 'association'
and the other things you list. Would you say that the interpretation
of 'learning-place' as 'school' is an idiom? It is obviously a
specialisation.
I understand that you will not have derivation of this kind, since
words will get too long, but I'm simply interested in whether you'd
call this idiomatic derivation.
> As to compounding of lexical morphemes, I have no problem with that
> per_se, but I do not want to have idiomatic compounding.
Ok, so adhoc/ambiguity is ok, but idiomatic is not?
> A given concept will have its own word. One aim of Piashi is to be a
> briefscript. Having long compounds somewhat mitigates against that.
Indeed. :-) Kalaallisut is famous for it's word length.
>...
> Something totally different? I don't know what that would be.
I just thought you might have come up with some other concept.
Conlangers often do innovative stuff :-))
> I must confess that the creation of its vocabulary has been the
> greatest stumbling block and still exercises me. This is basically
> what has held up the development of the language. Maybe it's that
> "something totally different" which I need ;)
Tell me about it as soon as you find something. :-)
Lexicon is hard for me, too. Not so much due to it consisting of
many, many single entries, but more so to find the right design, the
system behind all those lexicon entries. Satisfaction is hard to
achieve here...
**Henrik
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:09:26 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Test for middle voice?
On 11/19/05, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >... In the strict sense, English does not have a middle _voice_,
> >i.e. a grammatically category distinguished morphologically from
> >active and passive. ...
>
> I'd say that modern English does have some kind of systematic middle.
> More than than, say, German. You have a lot of transitive verbs that
> work well intransitively for the object* of the transitive verb used
> as the *subject* of the transitive one. This is quite close to a
> distinct syntactic category, and it is often kind of a middle voice:
Yes, but I believe Ray's point was that it is not syntactically
distinguished. The "middle voice" verbs you cite are indistinguishable in
form from their active counterparts. In "The cup fills [with water]", the
verb "fills" is syntactically and morphologically in the active voice,
regardless of how you choose to distinguish its semantic role.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 07:31:54 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Test for middle voice?
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On 11/19/05, *Henrik Theiling* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> writes:
> >... In the strict sense, English does not have a middle _voice_,
> >i.e. a grammatically category distinguished morphologically from
> >active and passive. ...
>
> I'd say that modern English does have some kind of systematic middle.
> More than than, say, German. You have a lot of transitive verbs that
> work well intransitively for the object* of the transitive verb used
> as the *subject* of the transitive one. This is quite close to a
> distinct syntactic category, and it is often kind of a middle voice:
>
> Yes, but I believe Ray's point was that it is not syntactically
> distinguished. The "middle voice" verbs you cite are indistinguishable
> in form from their active counterparts.
Absolutely - spot on!
In "The cup fills [with
> water]", the verb "fills" is syntactically and morphologically in the
> active voice, regardless of how you choose to distinguish its semantic role.
Yes, grammatically (syntactically & morphologically) English has only
two voices: active & passive.
IMO it is unhelpful and confusing to use the term 'voice' as a semantic
category; especially when there exists the perfectly good term
_diathesis_. I quote Trask's definition:
"The relation between the semantic roles (deep cases, theta roles)
subcategorized for by a lexical verb or predicate and the surface
expression of those roles as grammatical relations."
What Henrik is writing about is diathesis, and I have not said that
there is no 'middle' diathesis in English. Indeed, I believe that some
analyses of English postulate more than just three diatheses.
However, I understood Aidan's mail to be about _grammatical_ voice and
replied accordingly. Indeed, Aidan's reply of 19th Nov surely confirms this.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 07:44:42 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
[snip]
>>that affixes need to be _precisely_ defined. I cannot have vaguely
>>defined concepts like "association", "special", "general" which then in
>>practice overlap one another in quite unpredictable ways. And if there
>>to be antonym & complement affixes, these need to be clearly defined and
>>applied strictly & consistently.
>
>
> Ok. In West-Greenlandic, my favourite cited example is the school,
> the 'learning-place'. It is a derivation of 'learn' + 'place'. The
> 'place' derivation is clearly defined, much more so than 'association'
> and the other things you list. Would you say that the interpretation
> of 'learning-place' as 'school' is an idiom?
No - since the meaning can reasonably be deduced from the two elements.
>It is obviously a specialisation.
In a way - but 'school' is surely the most general "learning place".
> I understand that you will not have derivation of this kind, since
> words will get too long, but I'm simply interested in whether you'd
> call this idiomatic derivation.
What I would call 'idiomatic derivation' are things like "evue":
e- v- u- e
be-ASSOCIATION-one-AUGMENT = "corporation"
>
>>As to compounding of lexical morphemes, I have no problem with that
>>per_se, but I do not want to have idiomatic compounding.
>
>
> Ok, so adhoc/ambiguity is ok, but idiomatic is not?
It certainly is not. I do not know why you assume it is.
>>...
>>Something totally different? I don't know what that would be.
>
>
> I just thought you might have come up with some other concept.
> Conlangers often do innovative stuff :-))
Maybe it's the lack of 'innovativeness' that has caused Piashi to be so
long in the making :=(
>
> Lexicon is hard for me, too. Not so much due to it consisting of
> many, many single entries, but more so to find the right design, the
> system behind all those lexicon entries. Satisfaction is hard to
> achieve here...
It is indeed!
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:02:02 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Test for middle voice?
Hi!
R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Mark J. Reed wrote:
>...
> > Yes, but I believe Ray's point was that it is not syntactically
> > distinguished. The "middle voice" verbs you cite are
> > indistinguishable in form from their active counterparts.
>
> Absolutely - spot on!
Oops.
My problem might be than AFAIK German has no good word for 'voice'. I
always use 'Diathese' in German for English 'voice'. That might even
be wrong, since most of the time I do linguistics in English, but
anyway, it seems to have blinded me.
>...
> What Henrik is writing about is diathesis, and I have not said that
> there is no 'middle' diathesis in English. Indeed, I believe that some
> analyses of English postulate more than just three diatheses.
Sorry for the confusion then. I will properly distinguish voice from
diathesis in the future! :-)
Please allow me another thought to clarify my understanding of English
grammar. Don't hit me. :-)
Speaking of syntax only: isn't 'the cup fills' at least a wee bit
syntactically distinguishable from 'Peter fills the cup'? I.e., is
'Peter fills' grammatical and will it be understood to be containing
an ellipsis of an object being filled? If so, I agree -- the
distinction is purely semantical. But if it is either ungrammatical,
or possible to be interpreted as a (strange) situation where Peter
fills in the way a cup would, then there is a syntactical distinction,
isn't it?
But ok, my L2 intuition tells me that the selection of the diathesis
is done according to semantical properties of the subject, not by
syntax -- if it can have control, it's active, if it can't, it's
middle. So there is no middle voice in English. I will never claim
so again! :-) 'Peter drinks' is clearly active. You can't say 'Tea
drinks', right? So it also depends on the verb. What about 'Tea
drinks more easily than water when you have a cold'?
**Henrik
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:12:46 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Quoting tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> German's "Krankhaus" meaning "hospital" comes from "sick"+"house",
> doesn't it?
> I know German's Western, but I don't know how they say a "sick"
> building.
I don't recall the German for a sick house, but in Swedish you get _sjukhus_
"hospital", _sjukt hus_ "sick house".
Andreas
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:21:22 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Test for middle voice?
Quoting Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi!
>
> R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Mark J. Reed wrote:
> >...
> > > Yes, but I believe Ray's point was that it is not syntactically
> > > distinguished. The "middle voice" verbs you cite are
> > > indistinguishable in form from their active counterparts.
> >
> > Absolutely - spot on!
>
> Oops.
>
> My problem might be than AFAIK German has no good word for 'voice'. I
> always use 'Diathese' in German for English 'voice'. That might even
> be wrong, since most of the time I do linguistics in English, but
> anyway, it seems to have blinded me.
Looking in a Swedish lexicon, it seems _diates_ covers both voice and diathesis.
It may be the same in German.
The way to distingish is apparently to speak of _morfologisk diates_ vs
_semantisk diates_.
Andreas
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:26:46 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SURVEY: Idiomatic Expressions In Your ConLang Or ConCulture
Hi!
R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
>...
> > Ok. In West-Greenlandic, my favourite cited example is the school,
> > the 'learning-place'. It is a derivation of 'learn' + 'place'. The
> > 'place' derivation is clearly defined, much more so than 'association'
> > and the other things you list. Would you say that the interpretation
> > of 'learning-place' as 'school' is an idiom?
>
> No - since the meaning can reasonably be deduced from the two elements.
Ah, shoot, I gave the wrong verb -- a school is a 'reading-place'
(atuarfik).
The meaning *is* more special than what can be deduced.
> >It is obviously a specialisation.
>
> In a way - but 'school' is surely the most general "learning place".
Maybe more examples: eat-place = table. sleep-place = bed.
Deducible, yes, but they are more special than what they express
literally.
>...
> What I would call 'idiomatic derivation' are things like "evue":
> e- v- u- e
> be-ASSOCIATION-one-AUGMENT = "corporation"
Ok, I fully understand! :-O
**Henrik
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:40:39 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: [TECH] MySQL 4.1.11 and Unicode I/O
Hello Mark,
Thank you for verifying my question. I've had a look at how
it comes out for you -- you can delete my dictionary stuff
again now. Well, I usually haven't got problems with
Unicode, except here, when using MySQL. You're right, it
*really* cannot be the browser, as the pages are set to
UTF-8 with a <meta> tag and Firefox (1.4 I think) follows
that, setting the encoding of the pages to UTF-8
automatically. As for the server and PHP version I use,
that's
> Apache/2.0.53 (Win32) mod_ssl/2.0.53 OpenSSL/0.9.7c
> PHP/5.0.4 Server at localhost Port 80, MySQL
> 4.1.11-nt
as I said.
I think it's due to the meta-tag that Firefox shows
"content-type => text/html;charset=UTF-8" in the 'Page's
Properties' dialogue. The only problem with looking whether
my PHP is malconfigured is that there are *two* php.ini
files -- one in $apachefriends$\xampp\php, the other one in
$apachefriends$\xampp\apache\bin, so I don't know where to
look. However, both files say
> ; As of 4.0b4, PHP always outputs a character encoding by
> ; default in the Content-type: header. To disable
> ; sending of the charset, simply set it to be empty.
> ;
> ; PHP's built-in default is text/html
> default_mimetype = "text/html"
> ;default_charset = "iso-8859-1"
Right, PHP doesn't send a default charset. Setting both files
to default_charset = "utf-8" doesn't help either as it seems.
The httpd.conf says about charsets,
> # Specify a default charset for all pages sent out. This
> # is always a good idea and opens the door for future
> # internationalisation of your web site, should you ever
> # want it. Specifying it as a default does little harm;
> # as the standard dictates that a page is in iso-8859-1
> # (latin1) unless specified otherwise i.e. you are merely
> # stating the obvious. There are also some security
> # reasons in browsers, related to javascript and URL
> parsing
> # which encourage you to always set a default char set.
> #
> # AddDefaultCharset ISO-8859-15 ##### CARSTEN: DEACTIVATED
I commented out this line on purpose for some reason I can't
remember anymore. I think it was because all the pages were
interpreted as iso-8859-15 then regardless of the charset
given by the <meta> tag in the HTML file. That was at least
*before* rebooting after having changed the two ini files.
Well, maybe it *is* an error in MySQL that Unicode doesn't
work properly here -- after all, I always get
> Illegal mix of collations (utf8_unicode_ci,IMPLICIT) and
> (latin1_swedish_ci,COERCIBLE) for operation 'like'
when entering %a-macron% into the "word" textfield in the
query dialogue. Putting a "COLLATE utf8_unicode_ci" after
the "LIKE" stuff doesn't help either -- the MySQL debugger
reports this use was just plain wrong.
I don't know if this matters, but there's no utf8.xml
file in the folder where the charset definitions are
(\mysql\share\encodings IIRC).
Greetings,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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