------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Elomi!
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Language change among immortals
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Language change among immortals
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Elomi!
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. how many cases is too many?
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: how many cases is too many?
From: Bryan Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Amerinds (was: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats))
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Elomi!
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: how many cases is too many?
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Amerinds (was: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats))
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Elomi!
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: how many cases is too many?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13. Re: Elomi!
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Elomi!
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: how many cases is too many?
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Elomi!
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: how many cases is too many?
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Vowel Harmony
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: how many cases is too many?
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: OT: [TECH] MySQL 4.1.11 and Unicode I/O
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Darwinistic or ancient strata?
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Hello
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Language change among immortals
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: OT: [TECH] MySQL 4.1.11 and Unicode I/O
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Amerinds (was: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats))
From: wayne chevrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:19:22 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Elomi!
--- Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/21/05, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > So it might be an
> > interesting or useful exercise to come up with a
> list of some common
> > names (major cities, famous people, or whatever)
> represented in Elomi,
> > and see if they come out in a recognizable form.
>
> That's a good idea, Herman. I have only a few in
> the sample sentences
> ("Tammy", "Melanie", "Canada", "Ford", "England",
> "English", "Baker
> Street"). I'll create more and provide Elomi-ised,
> Elomi-shaped, and foreign
> forms for each.
>
I included "emelika" (America) in my unofficial Elomi
dictionary at http://fiziwig.com/mcguf1.html
Are these recognizable? (remember 'x' is 'sh')
emexiko (or emekiko)
exapanu (if there were a "ch" sound for the
voiced/unvoiced j/ch i could be "echapanu" which would
be a little closer)
edeteloto emixikana
emusixa esasekaxuna ekanata
eminapolo eminsota
esanta efelansisko
elosa enxelusa ekalifona
ekansasa enasiti (esiti?)
emontelialo
elondonu
ebelinu exemoni
--gary
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:23:31 -0700
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language change among immortals
On 11/21/05, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> kutsuwamushi wrote:
>
> > Or would
> > language change continue at a similar pace, because people's language
> > evolves continually throughout their lives, not just primarily at one
> > stage of it?
>
> Personally I feel it takes quite a jolt for a person's language to change
> noticeable within their lifetime. (Excluding emigration to a foreign
> country, of course.) The principal factor would be exposure to a dialect
> that is perceived as more prestigious than one's own.
>
I was waiting for this to come up :-). There is a short article in the
journal Nature from 2000 which reports on the changing pronunciation
of Queen Elizabeth between the 1950s and 1980s. Basically, her vowels
are moving towards what the article calls "Standard Southern
British". The URL is
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v408/n6815/abs/408927a0.html .
(Hmmm. This may be subscription-only (I'm looking at if from work); if
it is, I have the PDF and would be happy to send it to interested
persons.)
Dirk
--
Gmail Warning: Watch the reply-to!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:50:41 -0500
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language change among immortals
On 11/21/05, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> kutsuwamushi wrote:
>
> > Or would
> > language change continue at a similar pace, because
> > people's language evolves continually throughout their
> > lives, not just primarily at one stage of it?
>
> Personally I feel it takes quite a jolt for a person's language
> to change noticeable within their lifetime. (Excluding
> emigration to a foreign country, of course.) The principal
> factor would be exposure to a dialect that is perceived as
> more prestigious than one's own.
I'm not sure it has to be preceived as more prestigious. I'm
sure people vary in their susceptibility to pronunciation
change, but for most I suspect it is quite unconscious. My
brother grew up in Michigan and moved to Georgia at about
age twenty-five. Today, at age forty-three, when he comes
back to Michigan to visit, everyone remarks on his southern
speech. Yet, he doesn't believe that he speaks any differently
than he did when he lived in Michigan.
--Ph. D.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:48:10 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Elomi!
On 11/21/05, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>So it might be an interesting or useful exercise to come up with a
>list of some common names (major cities, famous people, or
>whatever)
represented in Elomi, and see if they come out in a >recognizable
form.
Before the languages diverged, Senjecan had proper names for the
physical features of the Urheimat. Some of them are (hyphens used
to
show morphemes):
ááus-tîîrton, east-ocean - Pacific Ocean
µes-tîîrton, west-ocean - Atlantic Ocean
süool-tîîrton, south-ocean - Indian Ocean
béðrë-môôron, center-sea - Caspian Sea
meÿ-môôron, great sea - Black Sea
mínü-môôron, small sea - Sea of Azov
énter-moor-mêênjon, between-sea-mountain range - Caucasus Mountains
vüeeþ-gúrnë-ÿâzdon, earth-spine-rod - Ural Mountains
As the humans began to apply proper names to countries, Senjecan
developed several ways to handle this, modifying the names to agree
with Senjecan phonology & pitch. Place names belong to the -an
class,
since they are viewed as abstract concepts.
afrîcan, âsïan, éurôpan, éurâsïan.
Some names are literal translations of the proper name:
beðr-ámlë-rêµan, center-noble-country = China.
ááus-mórßë-ÿêðman, east-border-land = Austria.
cánp-uf-ÿêðman, hyrax-water-land, island of hyraxes, i.e., Spain.
énter-dâân-mïan, between-river-country = Mesopotamia.
Some names are compounds of the name of the people and the suffix -
mïan, meaning "country of":
angêlmïan, bangâlmïan, bavârmïan, bêlgëmïan, boîmïan, botîmïan,
cáledônmïan, dâxmïan, erênmïan (can you guess the countries?).
Some names are merely phonetic renderings:
bárazilïan (initial consonant clusters not permitted), bolîvïan,
bôsnïan, canâdïan, colômbïan, dardânïan (Kosovo).
In ancient times, arâmïan was Assyria. Today it is the name for
Syria
and Assyria has become sénarâmïan, i.e., ancient Syria.
I am still struggling to find a prefix I can use to designate places
in the Americas. Maybe "new" would be just as good as any, New
York,
New Jersey, New Hebrides, etc.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:08:42 -0500
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: how many cases is too many?
one of my older conlangs has: Nom., Accu., Dative, Benefactive,
Genitive, Posessive, Ablative, Allative, Vocative and Insrumental.
how many in you personal opinions is too many?
most of the time i prefer to keep it down to Nom./Accu., Dative,
Posessive and Instrumental.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:13:31 +0000
From: Bryan Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how many cases is too many?
How long is a piece of string? No, really. :)
Bryan
Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: one of my older conlangs has: Nom.,
Accu., Dative, Benefactive,
Genitive, Posessive, Ablative, Allative, Vocative and Insrumental.
how many in you personal opinions is too many?
most of the time i prefer to keep it down to Nom./Accu., Dative,
Posessive and Instrumental.
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams.
-- William Butler Yeats
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Model Search - Could you be the next catwalk superstar? Check out the
competition now
[This message contained attachments]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:19:35 -0500
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Amerinds (was: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats))
On Nov 14, 2005, at 4:33 PM, tomhchappell wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> I've always found it rather infuriating that English use "Indian"
>> both of the Subcontinent and of the peoples of the Americas. Most
>> other European languages use different derivatives of "India", eg
>> German _Inder_ "(subcontinental) Indians", _Indianer_ "(American)
>> Indians".
>> One of the English words should be changed to "Indish" or something.
>> Andreas
> For some time the accepted academic designation was "Amerind". You
> can see this in linguists' articles from that time.
> Nowadays our own autonym, and therefore politically correct ethnonym,
> is "Native American". In my view this is insufficiently
> specific; "Native American" means "born in America", and so would
> include anyone who is not himself or herself an immigrant. To
> me, "Indigenous American", "Aboriginal American" or "American
> Aborigine", or "Autochthonous American" would be better -- though I
> don't really see what was so bad with "Amerind".
> (The views just expressed are my own, and not necessarily shared by
> even a single other Cherokee.)
> Tom H.C. in MI
What about _Native American_ (=Amerind) vs. _native American_ (born
in...)?
-Stephen (Steg)
"only the extremes are logical;
but they are absurd."
~ samuel butler
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:11:46 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Elomi!
On 11/22/05, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are these recognizable? (remember 'x' is 'sh')
I got most of them, I think, except:
> emusixa esasekaxuna ekanata
I got Sasketchewan, Canada but not
the locality -- probably due to my
deplorable ignorance about Canadian geography.
> esanta efelansisko
> elosa enxelusa ekalifona
These kinds of place names might should be
translated or partly translated instead
of just transliterated (as e.g., in Esperanto
"Novjorko" instead of *"Nujorko").
Does Elomi have words for "holy" and "angel" yet?
> ekansasa enasiti (esiti?)
Again, probably the native Elomi word
for "city" with "ekansasa" as attributive.
> ebelinu exemoni
Country and language names should generally be
transliterated from the language primarily concerned,
rather than English -- so probably
"etoxalan" or something similar, or maybe "etoxa" "Deutsch-"
as attribute adjective of the native Elomi word
for "land, country, nation". Again, you can probably get hints for a lot
of these from Toki Pona since they've already
been adapted to very similar phonological
restrictions: in TP Germany is "ma Tosi"
and the German language is "toki Tosi";
Russia is "ma Losi", Finnland "ma Sumi"...
Multilingual countries are tricker; you might
want to take the name of Switzerland from
Latin "Helvetica" rather than one of French,
German, Italian or Romansh. On the other hand,
once they're all adapted to Elomi phonology
there might not be much difference between
"Suisse", "Schweiz", "Svizzera" and "Svizra"
-- they all might melt down to something like
"esuwisa".
How to deal with countries like India I have
no idea; Esperanto used to use "Hindio"
and now more commonly "Baratio".
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/esp.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:58:01 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how many cases is too many?
On 11/22/05, Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> one of my older conlangs has: Nom., Accu., Dative, Benefactive,
> Genitive, Posessive, Ablative, Allative, Vocative and Insrumental.
> how many in you personal opinions is too many?
I should think it depends on the nature of the conlang,
and your purposes for it. If you're planning to become
fluent in it as you develop it, you might want to keep
the number down; but if it's a philosophical experiment,
why not 81 cases (IIRC that's how many Ithkuil has)
or 100 (Arüven)? There are at least a couple of
natural languages with more than 20 -- Hungarian,
and a language of the Caucasus, I think,
whose name begins with a T, unless it doesn't.
If the case markings are invariant suffixes
or prefixes, I don't see why you shouldn't
have as many of them as most languages have
of prepositions or postpositions. Even if they're
not invariant, you might can handle a fairly
large number if the variations are phonologically
conditioned, synchronically predictable,
and not too complicated (i.e., sandhi occurring
at boundaries between roots and case affixes).
More at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphosyntactic_alignment
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:09:14 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Amerinds (was: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats))
In Canada the term is "First Nations People" or simply "First
Nations". I'm not sure if this includes Inuit; it's possible that it
refers to Cree, Iroquois and all the other bands besides Inuit. I'm
embarrassed that I don't know this offhand. I'll look it up better
when I've a few more minutes.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:04:57 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Elomi!
> I included "emelika" (America) in my unofficial Elomi
> dictionary at http://fiziwig.com/mcguf1.html
>
> Are these recognizable? (remember 'x' is 'sh')
>
Elomi has three 'subclasses' of name (and, for that matter, other
lexicals): native Elomi, which follow the morphological rules of Elomi
perfectly; completely foreign, which break the grammatical class and
word boundary rules; and quasi-foreign, which merely use foreign phonemes
and/or disallowed consonant clusters (which is any except two-letter
clusters that begin with 'n'). (I need better terms for these two
classes of 'foreign'.) See sample sentences 85 & 86.
So "America" could be "emerika" and be quasi-foreign, but I would think
that it would need a real Elomi name, and "emelika" would fit fine.
Similarly, "exapanu" would be better than "ecapanu". But I don't know
how to decide,
other than by gut feeling,
when a name is "important" enough that it merits a real Elomi name.
You guys keep making me have to think! Here's my take on it:
> emexiko (or emekiko)
Mexico
> exapanu (if there were a "ch" sound for the
> voiced/unvoiced j/ch i could be "echapanu" which would
> be a little closer)
Japan
> edeteloto emixikana
Detroit, Michigan
If we're using the foreign phoneme "d", then we might as well allow a consonant
cluster here, too:
edetroto u emixikana
(I think we need "u" between the subordinate political entity and the
superordinate.
And yet I don't feel that way when it comes to given and family names. Hmmm...)
Or go Elomi all the way:
eteloto u emixikana
I have a sense about how consonant clusters would be adapted into Elomi,
but I'm not ready to write it down yet (in other words, I haven't
thought it through;
I will look at the Toki Pona-isation site that Jim cited).
> emusixa esasekaxuna ekanata
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, Canada
> eminapolo eminsota
Minneapolis, Minnesota
eminapolo u eminisota
> esanta efelansisko
San Francisco
I would probably not try to maintain the two separate words of the name:
esanfansisiko
or, quasi-foreign:
esanfransisko
> elosa enxelusa ekalifona
Los Angeles, California
elosanxele u ekalifona
> ekansasa enasiti (esiti?)
Kansas City
ekansasanasiti
I think of Kansas City as the name all of a piece, so it seems natural
to join the two pieces
up like a compound. To me. But
ekansasiti
would also work.
> emontelialo
???
> elondonu
London
> ebelinu exemoni
Berlin, Germany
epelinu u exemoni
or, quasi-foreign:
eberlinu u ecermani
or
eberlinu u edoclanta
>
> --gary
>
You'll note that quasi-foreign names still can't have semivowels or
consecutive vowels, and still must begin with "e" and end with a
vowel.
--larry
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:07:52 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: how many cases is too many?
Check the reply-to line.
[snip]
> one of my older conlangs has: Nom., Accu., Dative, Benefactive,
> Genitive, Posessive, Ablative, Allative, Vocative and Insrumental.
> how many in you personal opinions is too many?
[snip]
I've seen everything--no case system at all (Chinese, etc.) to 24
(Hungarian). IMHO, free sentence structure = faster thought, so I
would think that old system works. It's your language though--do what
you will.
Basically, anything to mark the agent, patient, and a means for the
action will be enough.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:11:53 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Elomi!
> I included "emelika" (America) in my unofficial Elomi
> dictionary at http://fiziwig.com/mcguf1.html
>
> Are these recognizable? (remember 'x' is 'sh')
>
> emexiko (or emekiko)
> exapanu (if there were a "ch" sound for the
> voiced/unvoiced j/ch i could be "echapanu" which would
> be a little closer)
> edeteloto emixikana
> emusixa esasekaxuna ekanata
> eminapolo eminsota
> esanta efelansisko
> elosa enxelusa ekalifona
> ekansasa enasiti (esiti?)
> emontelialo
> elondonu
> ebelinu exemoni
>
> --gary
>
Elomi has three 'subclasses' of name (and, for that matter, other
lexicals): native Elomi, which follow the morphological rules of Elomi
perfectly; completely foreign, which break the grammatical class and
word boundary rules; and quasi-foreign, which use foreign phonemes
and/or disallowed consonant clusters (which is any except two-letter
clusters that begin with 'n'). (I need better terms for these two
classes of 'foreign'.) See sample sentences 85 & 86.
So "America" could be "emerika" and be quasi-foreign, but I would
think that it would need a real Elomi name, and "emelika" would fit
fine.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:16:17 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Elomi!
Sorry, I think I may have also posted a partial reply. Please ignore
it. ---larry
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:38:52 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how many cases is too many?
Reilly wrote:
<<
one of my older conlangs has: Nom., Accu., Dative, Benefactive,
Genitive, Posessive, Ablative, Allative, Vocative and Insrumental.
how many in you personal opinions is too many?
most of the time i prefer to keep it down to Nom./Accu., Dative,
Posessive and Instrumental.
>>
I've been waiting for this topic to come up. ;) I cannot find my
typology handout, but there is a natural language with over
140 local cases. And those are just local cases (I think it has six
or seven non-local cases, as well). So it need not be a logical
language to have a large number of cases. In this language, the
case forms themselves were somewhat predictable, so I'm sure
that helps a speaker when producing a given utterance. Anyway,
though, this number dwarfs Zhyler's 57 cases, so it made me
happy to come across it.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:00:12 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Elomi!
--- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/22/05, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Are these recognizable? (remember 'x' is 'sh')
>
> I got most of them, I think, except:
>
> > emusixa esasekaxuna ekanata
>
> I got Sasketchewan, Canada but not
> the locality -- probably due to my
> deplorable ignorance about Canadian geography.
And the correct response is:
http://www.citymoosejaw.com/
--gary
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:52:39 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how many cases is too many?
Jim Henry wrote:
> or 100 (Arüven)? There are at least a couple of
> natural languages with more than 20 -- Hungarian,
> and a language of the Caucasus, I think,
> whose name begins with a T, unless it doesn't.
It's Tabasaran. 44 cases, according to the LED (Linguistic Encyclopaedic
Dictionary, 1990, in Russian).
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:10:23 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Vowel Harmony
Tristan Mc Leay wrote:
> (PS: Is Uzbek presently losing its vowel harmony, or is it something
> that has happened while Uzbek has been a written language or something?)
>From the information I saw on Lingvoforum.net (in Russian), standard
literary Uzbek is indeed based on non-harmonizing dialects. Those are
dialects of large cities (Tashkent, Samarkand), that were under strong
influence of Tajik/Farsi, that has only 6 vowels. So they merged /o/~/2/,
/u/~/y/ and /i/~/M/. Some people even say, that urban Uzbeks are in fact
Tajiks that started speaking a Turkic language. Most village dialects are
still harmonizing.
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:44:52 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how many cases is too many?
On 11/22/05, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim Henry wrote:
> > or 100 (Arüven)? There are at least a couple of
> > natural languages with more than 20 -- Hungarian,
> > and a language of the Caucasus, I think,
> > whose name begins with a T, unless it doesn't.
>
> It's Tabasaran. 44 cases, according to the LED (Linguistic Encyclopaedic
> Dictionary, 1990, in Russian).
That was it. Wikipedia allows it "about 48 cases".
I understand in such cases there may be some
disagreement or uncertainty about what is a case
and what is a fairly productive suffix...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabasaran_language
On 11/22/05, David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've been waiting for this topic to come up. ;) I cannot find my
> typology handout, but there is a natural language with over
> 140 local cases. And those are just local cases (I think it has six
> or seven non-local cases, as well). So it need not be a logical
> language to have a large number of cases. In this language, the
gjâ-zym-byn has over 350 spacetime postpositions, plus an open-ended
set of derived abstract postpositions. So 140 local
cases is not excessive. I would be surprised though if
the 140 local case affixes can't be further broken
down into component morphemes, at least diachronically.
The gzb spacetime postpostions are composed of
an orientation morpheme, a directional morpheme, and a proximity
morpheme. See:
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/gzb/grammar.htm#postp
--
Jim Henry
esp.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:34:29 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: [TECH] MySQL 4.1.11 and Unicode I/O
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, 20:43 CET I wrote:
> I hope an upgrade will help.
OK, now that I've updated my server to PHP 5.0.5, Apache
2.0.55 and MySQL 5.0.15 and PHP now by default sends
text/html;utf-8., it still doesn't work. Instead, now
HTML meta tag definitions about charsets are ignored :-S
I guess there's really no other way than turning all special
letters into hex values. Converting everything into entities
works at least.
Pah, maybe it's just dumb Windoze.
C.
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:20:37 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Darwinistic or ancient strata?
--- In [email protected], Raivo Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Does some conlangs, or even natlangs, reflect Darwinistic views? That
> is,
> the words designating apes and men, birds and reptiles, could they be
> cognate? I don´t mean figurativeness ("apeman") but really ancient
> strata in
> language.
(Almost?) Every language's naming system for the species its speakers
are familiar with embodies a folk taxonomy. This folk taxonomy may, or
may not, be cladistic. Whether or not it is cladistic, it may, or may
not, be consistent with some theory of evolution. If it is consistent
with some theory of evolution (such as Hugo de Vries's mutation theory,
Lamarckianism, Lysenkoism, genetic drift, or whatever), this theory
may, or may not, have evolution be responsive to the environment; and
may, or may not, have evolution be selective and based on selection of
survivors. If all of those "may or may not"s are in fact "may"s, then,
the system will be consistent with -- but not require -- a Darwinian
explanation for evolution.
As a statistical universal,
People's folk taxonomies usually have five levels -- unlike the
Linnaean scientific taxonomy, with its seven (Kingdom, Phylum, Class,
Order, Family, Genus, Species). (Actually, there are many more; its
just that, these are the seven that every species has. There are some
groups intermediate between, for instance, Kingdom and Phylum, or Class
and Order, or Family and Genus.)
Another statistical universal;
The most-commonly-used level in everyday speech will almost always be
the middle level.
See
Folk & pre-Linnaean taxonomy (21-Jan-03)
http://www.botany.utoronto.ca/courses/bot300/lectures/300-21-Jan-03.html
Also, read
http://jeannicod.ccsd.cnrs.fr/documents/disk0/00/00/02/67/ijn_00000267_0
0/ijn_00000267_00.pdf
It has a lot of good stuff in it that will help you answer your
questions for yourself, and it's short.
http://jeannicod.ccsd.cnrs.fr/documents/disk0/00/00/01/22/ijn_00000122_0
0/ijn_00000122_00.doc
is longer, but probably clearer, or at least simpler to get into.
-----
Tom H.C. in MI
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:32:35 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hello
Ea B:Cay, Tam 1A 11B1, 01:14 TeYT*, ang matahaniyạin
Schlaier Reilly:
> okay then.
> halo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] is r\aili
Sahuban, Reilly.
Ang tahaevain mebaloybenungaris caivo panyanea ningena
naranoaris ayena? Naranin, ang silviyạ nucagan ayyam
cugabanoaris ena Alamang, Suvenang nay Islenang.
Aren, le valyu divanin evaris!
Manisu,
Becker Carsten
*) Taday ena Yuropa Aiterpeng
--
"Miranayam cepauarạ naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Nov 22 2005, 01:14 CET*, Reilly Schlaier wrote:
> okay then.
> halo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] is r\aili
Welcome, Reilly.
Have you got a website with information about your language?
It looks very much like a mixture of German, Swedish and
Icelandic to me.
Anyway, enjoy your stay!
Greetings,
Carsten Becker
*) Central European Time
--
"Verbing weirds language."
(Calvin and Hobbes)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:43:23 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language change among immortals
--- In [email protected], è½¡è« <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This is a question that has been bothering me for a while. I may have
> asked the conlangs comm on LJ about it a while ago, but either I
> didn't get an answer or I didn't understand/forgot it.
>
> How would a population being immortal, or at least very long-lived,
> affect the way that their language evolves?
>
> Tolkien's languages are the only conlangs I can think of at the moment
> that are spoken by a very long-lived race, but I haven't studied them
> at all. I should probably do that sometime. =)
>
> --
> kutsuwamushi
> (Watch reply-to, gmail user!)
>
1. How good are these people's memories?
If they have periodic recurring attacks of Alzheimer's disease every
fifty to a hundred years or so, and have to re-learn how to talk
afterward, their languages may evolve at the same rate as ours. If the
attacks occur every 18 years or thereabouts, maybe quicker.
2. How fast-paced are their social and technological changes?
Technological change, warfare, natural disasters such as advancing ice
or melting ice caps or land subsidence or the sun expanding or cooling
off or whatever, may force people to change rapidly and continually.
Even if they are not _forced_ to change, they may be _induced_ to
change. As people do new things, they begin to say new things -- as
they begin do new things, or to devote different proportions of time to
talking about things, they begin to talk about them in new or different
ways.
3. How often do these people reproduce? And how fast do they grow up?
If they have a pair of twins every year, and only take two years to
grow up -- one year of childhood and one year of adolescence -- then no
matter how long they live, there will be a rapid onslaught of new
speakers, each of whom learned to talk in a home with two thousand-year-
old parents and two surly slang-entranced adolescent siblings.
4. When you say "immortal", do you mean just that they don't "die of
old age"? Or that they can't: 1 starve to death 2 die of thirst 3
suffocate 4 be poisoned 5 be crushed or butchered or burned or frozen
to death or whatever 6 catch an infectious disease and die from it 7
get cancer? (Well, maybe "cancer", and diabetes too, for that matter,
should go out along with "old age".)
According to some theorists, one of the major engines behind the rapid
linguistic change in the Papua/New Guinea area and its nearby islands,
and one of the major regions that this 1% of the world's inhabited land
area contains 15% of the world's languages, is that when someone there
dies, it becomes taboo to say their name -- and, of course, most
people's names are words or short phrases (usually nominals or
adjectivals, of course).
5. Finally, what if there is just a fashion/fad to change a particular
part of the way of speaking every year for no good reason? Language
*there* could be like clothes or cars *here*. The changes each year
could be so minuscule that only people who really, really care --
professional linguists and "fashionistas" -- could tell the differences
from one year to the next; yet each ten or twenty years or so, enough
differences would have accumulated that anyone could tell the
difference, and after fifty or one-hundred-and-fifty, the difference
would be so much it would make you laugh or make you angry; and after
five hundred, you just wouldn't get much use out of the old way of
doing things.
-----
Tom H.C. in MI
P.S. Thanks for a fun question.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:12:42 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: [TECH] MySQL 4.1.11 and Unicode I/O
On 11/22/05, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, 20:43 CET I wrote:
>
> > I hope an upgrade will help.
>
> OK, now that I've updated my server to PHP 5.0.5, Apache
> 2.0.55 and MySQL 5.0.15 and PHP now by default sends
> text/html;utf-8., it still doesn't work.
I trust that's shorthand or a typo? The full content-type header should look
like this:
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
You definitely need the charset= there.
Let's try isolating the components. If you write a simple php script that
just does a <?echo?> of a string with UTF-8 characters, does that work in
your browser?
If you use MySQL Query Browser, or mysql from the command line in a
UTF-8-capable terminal window, can you get UTF-8 strings into and back out
of MySQL without PHP in the way?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[This message contained attachments]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:16:22 +0000
From: wayne chevrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Amerinds (was: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats))
Larry Sulky nevesht:
>
>In Canada the term is "First Nations People" or simply "First
>Nations". I'm not sure if this includes Inuit; it's possible that it
>refers to Cree, Iroquois and all the other bands besides Inuit. I'm
>embarrassed that I don't know this offhand. I'll look it up better
>when I've a few more minutes.
The division is into Inuit, Metis(with an acute accent on the e), First
Nations, and Non-Status.
The Metis are descended from a mix of various indigenous nations and various
immigrant groups.
The Assembly of First Nations represents the various recognized
bands/tribes.
Non-Status refers to those who are of Native Canadian ancestry but no
membership in a recognized band/tribe.
--Wayne Chevrier
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
