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There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. A short story to translate
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: A short story to translate
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: OT: Wedding
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: New language grammar--what needs work?
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: New language grammar--what needs work?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10. Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: New language grammar--what needs work?
From: Taka Tunu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: New language grammar--what needs work?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:50:15 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: A short story to translate
Danti and the Donkey
Thomas visits Danti the fool.
I have many vegetables to carry to market, says
Thomas.
So may I use your donkey?
Danti the fool says, I have already given him to
another.
Thomas says, You lie! I hear the donkey behind your
house.
Danti replies, who do you believe, me or the donkey?
in Elomi
etanti e axupi'niloso
etomo ikofa etanti ata'nomusi.
ami u ixo iloso axata ame utu alu'nipexa a etomo ipa.
enwi uwe ami isa ilisu axupi'niloso u ate?
etanti ata'nomusi ipa ami iniku ose axa uta anpi.
etomo a ate inotoni! ami ipo itonse axupi'niloso uxaka
atesa u ate.
etanti a uwe ate ipeli anke ami a axupi'niloso?
Literal translation:
Danti and carry-beast
Thomas visit Danti, fool.
I [passive] obligate carry vegetable many to
selling-place, Thomas say.
therefore [query] I be-permitted use carry-beast of
you?
Danti, fool say I give [past] him to another.
Thomas: you lie! I able-to hear carry-beast behind
house of you.
Danti: [query] you believe which, me, carry-beast?
--gary
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:31:23 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
Hallo!
Gary Shannon wrote:
> I had a nifty idea I thought I'd share in case anyone
> cared to borrow it for their own conlang.
>
> I learn best by example and analogy so when I look up
> a word in a dictionary I like to have ready access to
> a handful of sentence that use that word so I can see
> how the word actually behaves in the wild.
That's a nice idea! An example often says more than a
thousand words in a dictionary entry.
> To that end, I've written a program to create my
> dictionary page and a sample sentence page from a
> dictionary file and a corpus of sentences. It shows a
> maximum of 20 sample sentences (number is adjustable)
> for a given word and the newer sentences push older
> ones out of sight as time goes on, so that the sample
> sentences continue to represent the most current usage
> patterns.
>
> Here's what the hyperlinked Elomi dictionary (a work
> in progress with a few bugs yet) looks like:
> http://fiziwig.com/lexicon.html
Good work!
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:08:10 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A short story to translate
On 12/2/05, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Danti and the Donkey
I've posted my translation at:
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/gzb/danti-pe-kweqdax.htm
since Unicode doesn't work consistently
in list email. I tried out a new version of
my script that converts interlinear glosses
into HTML tables; it links each word in the
gzb lines of the gloss to the lexicon entry.
Links from the lexicon to various sample
sentences in other documents will have
to wait on my writing
a more sophisticated script.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/gzb/gzb.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 22:57:37 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Wedding
David J. Peterson wrote:
> Congratulations, Henrik! ~:D
What he said :-)
Le hanuayang linyaieon eibanican vayam.
Ang me torayiyà in Nahang váris!
[le "Can.wA.jAN lin"ja.je.On EI)"ba.ni.kAn va."yAm]
[AN me "to.4A.i:ja in naXAN "va:.4Is]
lit.: All best things I wish for you.
May God bless you!
Carsten
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 22:58:05 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005, 12:43 CET, Gary Shannon wrote:
> To that end, I've written a program to create my
> dictionary page and a sample sentence page from a
> dictionary file and a corpus of sentences. It shows a
> maximum of 20 sample sentences (number is adjustable)
> for a given word and the newer sentences push older
> ones out of sight as time goes on, so that the sample
> sentences continue to represent the most current usage
> patterns.
I haven't had a look at your dictionary yet, but do you
think that will be possible to program as well using a MySQL
database and PHP? It sounds like a nifty idea. How does the
program know, though, how to assemble example sentences?
I.e. AFAIU your Elomi is isolating and rather simplistic
(at least it seems so at first sight), but what about
more complex agglutinating or even inflecting languages?
To link words in example sentences, you'd need a script that
would split at *morpheme* boundaries and when the respective
morpheme already exists in the dictionary, a link to this
one is provided. Well, but I quite don't know how to tell a
program how to split on morpheme boundaries the way the
sentence is meant ... for example, when there's a prefix
_a-_ and there are words beginning with _a_, all first a's
of such words would be linked to the entry for that prefix
...
Carsten
--
Keywords: dictionary, programming
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:52:14 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
--- Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
<snip>
> I.e. AFAIU your Elomi is isolating and rather
> simplistic
> (at least it seems so at first sight), but what
> about
> more complex agglutinating or even inflecting
> languages?
Elomi, which, for the record, is the invention of
Larry Sulky, (I just play with it for fun because it
sounds neat and is easy to learn) does have that
advantage. I'm not sure how I'd do it for more complex
languages. My own Latin-like Tazhu has all kinds of
case endings and verb conjugations that would make a
project like that a nightmare. I imagine the program
would need some kind of cross reference tables to
relate one form of the word to all the other forms so
that (to use a Latin example) the table would have to
equate "cogitare", "cogito", "cogitas", "cogitat",
"cogitamus", etc., etc. to each other so that they
would all generate the same HTML anchor name, probably
"#cogitare".
For an agglutiating language it would be a real
nightmare! I don't een want to think about that one
;-)
--gary
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:41:24 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
Gary Shannon wrote:
> Elomi, which, for the record, is the invention of
> Larry Sulky, (I just play with it for fun because it
> sounds neat and is easy to learn) does have that
> advantage. I'm not sure how I'd do it for more complex
> languages. My own Latin-like Tazhu has all kinds of
> case endings and verb conjugations that would make a
> project like that a nightmare. I imagine the program
> would need some kind of cross reference tables to
> relate one form of the word to all the other forms so
> that (to use a Latin example) the table would have to
> equate "cogitare", "cogito", "cogitas", "cogitat",
> "cogitamus", etc., etc. to each other so that they
> would all generate the same HTML anchor name, probably
> "#cogitare".
Probably, yes. And shouldn't things like "morior, loquor" have not only
their own links, but also a link to a general discussion of deponent verbs??
It do get complicated.
>
> For an agglutiating language it would be a real
> nightmare! I don't een want to think about that one
> ;-)
I was looking at Kash today, to see how/what I might exemplify, and decided
that _every_ word probably doesn't need to be. Further, what to do about
sandhi changes (e.g. most suffixes have -C(vl)V, -(nasal)C(vd)V and -C(vl)rV
allomorphs, which actually is discussed on the Morphology page-- so perhaps
just a link to that). Otherwise I think I'll do a large bunch of
"organized" example sentences for some of the knottier words (like _mesa_
'one' which can be used in various constructions and meanings-- 'one of...',
'single, sole', 'first (ordinal)', 'first of all (sentential adv.)' etc.
Other matters, like compound verbs, double accusatives etc. are or ought to
be discussed in the Syntax portion, which I haven't worked on for a long
time-- so links to that too. Ditto the as yet unwritten "Colloquial"
section.
More work for the winter season............:-))
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 22:38:24 -0500
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: New language grammar--what needs work?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On 12/2/05, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > OK. How would you express spatial relationships like
> > "under", "inside", etc? Will they be marked by
> > affixing the location or motion verb rather than adpositions
> > on the noun phrase?
>
> Those would be the verbs. i.e. The phrase "I am sitting under
> the chair" would not have a verb "to sit" , but "to sit under".
What about sentences such as "I am sitting under the chair
outside the house" or "I walked in the mud on the road near the
forest" ?
--Ph. D.
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:22:36 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New language grammar--what needs work?
Let's try those. Also never mind, verbs don't explicitly need
prepositions (comefrom-INDIC-PR-1PS-GIVEN_O vancouver-OBJECT means "I
come from Vancouver"), but if needed for more detail, they can be
used.
Here's an example of how I morphed the English to my lang.
I am sitting under the chair outside the house. (Initial)
sit.indic.pr.1ps.gvo under the chair outside the house. (Take care of
the easy stuff.)
sit.indic.pr.1ps.gvo chair(house-outside)under.obj (Final. The
semicolon separates the two entities, which form one noun. These, as
written in the grammar, are parsed right to left, so we get "under (an
outside-a-house) chair".
Also thanks for all the help. You're whipping the initial grammar
into shape, and it might just be useful eventually.
Another one:
I walked in the mud on the road near the forest.
walk.indic.pa.1ps.gvo (in the (on the road (near the forest)) mud).obj
walk.indic.pa.1ps.gvo mud(forest-near(road-on))on.obj
On 12/2/05, Ph.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > On 12/2/05, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > OK. How would you express spatial relationships like
> > > "under", "inside", etc? Will they be marked by
> > > affixing the location or motion verb rather than adpositions
> > > on the noun phrase?
> >
> > Those would be the verbs. i.e. The phrase "I am sitting under
> > the chair" would not have a verb "to sit" , but "to sit under".
>
> What about sentences such as "I am sitting under the chair
> outside the house" or "I walked in the mud on the road near the
> forest" ?
>
>
> --Ph. D.
>
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 00:45:49 -0800
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
Emaelivpeith Carsten Becker:
> How does the
> program know, though, how to assemble example sentences?
> I.e. AFAIU your Elomi is isolating and rather simplistic
> (at least it seems so at first sight), but what about
> more complex agglutinating or even inflecting languages?
>
> To link words in example sentences, you'd need a script that
> would split at *morpheme* boundaries and when the respective
> morpheme already exists in the dictionary, a link to this
> one is provided. Well, but I quite don't know how to tell a
> program how to split on morpheme boundaries the way the
> sentence is meant
Asha'ille is agglutinating, so I had a similar problem to what you
describe. I decided not to solve it programmatically, but rather to
add some minimal markup to my source text.
For example, the "word" |riyëvjosöte| ((which means "Can you
understand?") consists of 4 morphemes and 2 ablauts (dunno if those
count as their own morphemes). To make a computer-generated
interlinear out of that agglutination (hehe, I like that word :P ), I
mark up the text I feed into the program:
Riy[e]{ë}v|["]|[-]j[-]|[-]o|[-]s[ó]{ö}te|["]|
Now, that looks pretty nasty, but then, a program that could easily
sort it all out 100% of the time would also look pretty nasty. ;)
I use brackets "[]" to write how the morpheme exists in the
dictionary, ignoring any surface changes. I use braces "{}" to write
surface changes that do not show up as such in the dictionary. I use
pipes "|" to mark morpheme boundaries. So, the above breaks down into:
Riy[e]{ë}v| -- looked up as "riyev", displayed in the interlinear as "riyëv"
["]| -- looked up as ", not displayed in the interlinear
[-]j[-]| -- looked up as "-j-", displayed as just "j"
[-]o| -- looked up as "-o", displayed as "o"
[-]s[ó]{ö}te| -- looked up as "-sóte", displayed as "söte"
["]| -- same as previous ["]
I think that Asha'ille is just simple enough, even though
agglutinating, that I could have written a program to figure it out
without the manual markup. But I had thought at the time that others
might want to use my script, or that I might come up with another,
more complicated language. So I stay with my manual markup. :)
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com/
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 13:17:21 +0100
From: Taka Tunu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: New language grammar--what needs work?
Ph. D. wrote:
>>>
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On 12/2/05, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > OK. How would you express spatial relationships like
> > "under", "inside", etc? Will they be marked by
> > affixing the location or motion verb rather than adpositions
> > on the noun phrase?
>
> Those would be the verbs. i.e. The phrase "I am sitting under
> the chair" would not have a verb "to sit" , but "to sit under".
What about sentences such as "I am sitting under the chair
outside the house" or "I walked in the mud on the road near the
forest" ?
>>>>
And why not use nouns instead?
"I sit @ now @ the underneath of the chair @ the outside of the house and I walk
@ the past @ (the midst of) mud @ the (surface of) the road @ the proximity of
the forest."
µ.
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 08:30:11 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New language grammar--what needs work?
Because this is an agglutinating language.> And why not use nouns
instead? This isn't designed to be simple. It's an
(soon-to-be)artlang, not a log/eng/auxlang.
>
> "I sit @ now @ the underneath of the chair @ the outside of the house and I
> walk
> @ the past @ (the midst of) mud @ the (surface of) the road @ the proximity of
> the forest."
>
> µ.
>
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