------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Lenition or Elision or What?
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: [OT] English [dZ]
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:19:59 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?
caeruleancentaur wrote:
[snip]
> FWIW here are the definitions from AHD:
>
> syneresis: The drawing together into one syllable of two consecutive
> vowels ordinarily pronounced separately.
>
> synizesis: The contraction of two syllables into one by joining in
> pronunciation two adjacent vowels. Compare syneresis. (Interesting
> Greek etymology: to sit down together!)
>
> At first I couldn't see the difference! But now I think I do. The
> definition of synizesis mentions pronunciation specifically, so I
> would imagine that there is a coalescence of pronunciation, but not
> of spelling.
That's correct. There was also in Ancient Greek a feature called
'crasis' (mixing).
If I take the Senjecan example m-i-ât-a:
(a) pronounced ['mjat_da] but written miâta - synizesis
(b) pronounced ['mjat_da] and written, say*, mjâta - syn(a)eresis
(c) if i+a run together to give, say [e], and we have mêta ['met_da] -
crasis.
*I believe Senjecan doesn't have the sound [j].
and, of course
(d) coalescence [m_jat-da] :-)
> If that is the case, I would think that the
> Senjecan /mi/ --> /mï/ would be synizesis.
Presumably you don't mean slashes. I thought |ï| was used in Senjecan as
a sign of palatalization? if so, it would be coalescence.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:30:58 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] English [dZ]
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On 12/9/05, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>Precisely - after 1066, Norman French spelling conventions replaced the
>>Old English ones.
>
>
> Was it just a spelling convention change?
Yes.
> I thought that words which
> previously had |j| began to be pronounced with |dZ|; they can't all be
> reanalyzed spelling-pronunciations, can they?
Not as far as native words are concerned. the Old English [j] was
spelled |g| and occurred before front vowels. In the post-Norman
spelling it was denoted either with |y| or with the Old English version
of |g| which we call yogh. The English initial [j] never became [dZ]
The Vulgar Latin [j] however had become [dj] or [dz] in the
proto-Romance period. When French words came to us spelled |j| or 'soft
g' the sound was already [dZ]. English has not changed it.
>
>>No. In Old French |j| was pronounced /dZ/, and |ch| was pronounced /tS/.
>>[...] In France the
>>earlier affricates were leveled to simple fricatives sometime in the middle
>>of the13th
>>century.
>
>
> Huh. Wouldn't have guessed that - I can see /j/ -> /Z/ -> /dZ/, but
> /j/ -> /dZ/ -> /Z/ is not exactly a monotonic-feeling sequence.
Mis-spelling in the late Roman period make it quite clear that the Latin
/j/ (which was always geminate between vowels) had become an affricate
in Vulgar Latin.
>
> As far as I can tell, 1066 is about 500 years before the consistent
> use of |I| and |J| to distinguish the vocalic and consonantal sounds,
> so I'm assuming there was a significant period when both French and
> English (to whatever extent it was written at all) had words spelled
> with an |I| that was pronounced [dZ]. True?
Absolutely.
I think Tristan has covered other points I might have made.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
