There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: coins and currency
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: coins and currency
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: coins and currency
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:23:39 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
> I haven't laid eyes on these Japanese coins, though. Somebody got a
> URL providing pictures?
Here's a couple
Rectangular 2-shu http://www.lioncoins.com/jpegs/2shumkn.jpg - .980 Silver
Oblong Koban http://www.lioncoins.com/jpegs/shotkk.jpg (gold/silver alloy)
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:46:57 -0500
From: Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Hi Nik (Nik Taylor), in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Jan 7 you wrote:
> Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
> > I haven't laid eyes on these Japanese coins, though. Somebody got a
> > URL providing pictures?
>
> Here's a couple
> Rectangular 2-shu http://www.lioncoins.com/jpegs/2shumkn.jpg - .980 Silver
>
> Oblong Koban http://www.lioncoins.com/jpegs/shotkk.jpg (gold/silver alloy)
Cool! Are there any 20th or 21st Century coins akin to that?
--
Nomad of Norad (David C. Hall) --- *TeamAmiga*
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:07:46 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Tristan McLeay wrote:
> I don't really think I'd call that remotely OCD. ("Just a minute, let me
> see if I've got any change.") That's really a very common
> practice
Not in Kansas at least. I'm a cashier, and quite often, most people
just give me one or two bills, just accumulating their coins and
low-denomination bills. And then I hear people complain about how they
have so much change! I regularly see people with several dollars worth
of coins (and keep in mind that $.25 is the largest common coin in the
US). Not to mention ridiculously large numbers of low-denomination
bills like 1's and 5's. I try to avoid having more than 4 pennies
($.01), 1 nickle ($.05), 2 dimes ($.10) or 3 quarters ($.25), likewise,
I try to keep my paper at no more than four 1's, three $5's or one $10
(it's not uncommon for registers to not have any $10's, so receiving
back two or three $5's is fairly common). I find it mildly annoying
when I slip up and receive a nickel when I already have one ... :-)
> ---about the only people who don't do it are the people who want
> to try and take certain coins out of circulation (I've met a few people
> who try and collect all the 5c coins they can---they obviously hate them
> as much as I do).
If you hate them, why would you collect them? Wouldn't you try to get
rid of them, or simply leave them?
> I only assume they were just trying to make the euro comparable in value
> to the various dollars and the British pound. What I think they
> should've done is just said that the primary subdivision of the euro was
> 0.1, a dime or something. There's no reason a subdivision needs to be a
> hundredth.
Or decimal for that matter ... ;-)
But, yeah, it does seem like the US dollar and the Pound seem to be the
accepted "standard currency value". Revalued currencies generally seem
to aim for the vicinity of those. Which leads me to conclude that one
day, there will be no currencies with subdivisions, because inflation
will bring them all down in value, and any revaluations will aim for
those increasingly devalued currencies.
>> Interestingly, around here, "cash" is often used to mean paper money
>> exclusively.
>
>
> "Cash" I usually take to mean coins or notes, I don't think I've ever
> heard either specialisation before.
I think it's probably an Americanism, due to the fact that our coins are
so low value that they're not seen as "real money".
I use the same meaning of cash as you, incidentally. It's a minor pet
peeve of mine when people use the term cash to exclude coins.
> Notes are notes, rarely paper money
> because hereabouts they're polymer (another thing I don't get is why
> euros notes are paper.
Yeah, from what I've read of polymer notes, I wish the US would do that,
too. But, there's enough complaints about the minimal amount of color
recently added that I'm not holding my breath on a rational currency any
time soon ...
>> A lot of Americans just put their coins in their pocket. I prefer
>> keeping it in my wallet, as its more efficient, but lately I've been
>> looking for a new, nicer, wallet, and you just can't find men's
>> wallets with a coin-pocket. Very annoying.
>
>
> Australian men are the same---most women do put their coins in their
> purses though. Or handbags. I find mens wallets with coin-pockets might
> as well not have the coin pocket, because once you've got more than a
> few coins, you can't close it! Perhaps it's less noticeable in the US
> because all your common coins are of relatively low value, whereas we
> have $1 and $2 coins which are actually of some use.
You've got pretty big coins, too. My wallet's coin-pocket is quite
adequate for US coins, even throwing in a dozen dollar coins, which I
use from time to time.
Henrik Theiling wrote:
>> (Admittedly, I'm semi-OCD on that
>>issue ... I've been known to give a cashier $23.01 for a $7.51
>>purchase -
>>$15.50 in change, the most compact change I could come up with with
>>what I had on me)
>
>
> Haha, errrm, I do exactly the same. Should be 22.01, BTW
That would be $4.50 in change.
> Well, I think they do except them, actually. I've never encountered
> strange looks (only happy smiles, maybe) when paying exactly 7.98 EUR
> using 5 + 2 + .50 + .20 + .20 + .05 + .02 + .01. Of course, paying 1
> EUR with 100 * 1ct will most probably create some discussion, but so
> will paying 100 EUR with 100 * 1 EUR.
:-) Well, sure. No one wants that many of a single denomination.
> I didn't understand it either. Finland eliminated the 1ct and 2ct
> coins quite immediately and if I had been King of Europe, I would
> probably have done the same for my whole empire and would have
> additionally defined 20 newEUR := 1 oldEUR (meaning, of course, 1
> newEUR = 5 oldCents) so that no cents would have been needed anymore.
> I don't like two units for one type of thing too much.
But then you'd have ridiculously large prices, like spending thousands
on groceries. Me, I'd prefer a currency in the range of $10 for the
main unit.
> Also, I would probably have founded a commision for single-syllable
> nick names for 'Euro' in all the language of my empire. And then,
> after a few years, I would have introduced Tok Pisin as the official
> language. (Or maybe not, who knows. :-))
I'd've just had no official name, and no words on the money. Instead of
writing "5 Euro", it would just say "5", and each country could come up
with their own name.
Likewise, for a global currency, there'd definitely be no words, and the
values would be given in European, Arabic, and Hanzi numerals. I'd name
it with abbreviations of "Earth Currency Unit" in various languages, Ecu
in English, Umoti (Unidad MOnetaria de la Tierra) for Spanish, etc.
>>A lot of Americans just put their coins in their pocket. I prefer
>>keeping it in my wallet, as its more efficient, but lately I've been
>>looking for a new, nicer, wallet, and you just can't find men's
>>wallets with a coin-pocket. Very annoying.
>
>
> Really!? That's strange. Do you think there's a market for buying them
> here and putting them on eBay for sale in the US? :-))
A small one, maybe :-) Not too large, or they'd be available in stores ...
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:07:10 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
Michael Potter wrote:
> The San Francisco dollars were 40% silver until 1976 (the bicentennial
> reverse).
I hadn't known that. The other two mints were non-silver, though,
right? Were those San Francisco ones intended for circulation?
> According to that page, the .81 cent figure is from the 2000 Annual
> Report. The price of zinc has doubled in that time
Oh? Didn't know there had been such a large change in zinc prices.
> See, I haven't thought about historical aspects of Suzhoni currency, and
> now you've made me go and think about it!
>
> Seriously, I'm glad there's somebody else on here that seems to be
> interested in this. I think we left everybody else behind after about
> the first sentence.
>
> ObConlang:
>
> The Suzhoni don't have banknotes. Or at least none issued by the central
> government. Each of the 19 states is allowed to issue its own notes, but
> the people, much like Americans of days gone by, prefer "real" money:
> metal coinage.
I think a similar reason lies behind the low use of banknotes in the
Kassi Empire. No centralization of banknote production made them less
convenient, particularly since most of them were issued by private
banks, and more susceptible to counterfeiting, reducing trust in them.
Perhaps there had also been some bad examples of banks folding,
destroying their notes' value
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:17:23 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
>>Here's a couple
>>Rectangular 2-shu http://www.lioncoins.com/jpegs/2shumkn.jpg - .980 Silver
>>
>>Oblong Koban http://www.lioncoins.com/jpegs/shotkk.jpg (gold/silver alloy)
>
>
> Cool! Are there any 20th or 21st Century coins akin to that?
Not in Japan, at least.
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:55:39 -0500
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
Nik Taylor wrote:
>
> Michael Potter wrote:
>
> > According to that page, the .81 cent figure is from the
> > 2000 Annual Report. The price of zinc has doubled in
> > that time.
>
> Oh? Didn't know there had been such a large change
> in zinc prices.
Not just zinc. All non-ferrous metals have gone up sharply.
Four years ago, scrap brass was 45 cents per pound. I
just sold a bunch last month for $1.15 per pound.
--Ph. D.
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:04:52 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On 1/7/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Yep - and I cannot imagine the plural beings always 'euro' and 'cent' in
>>practice in English. I would expect _both_ euro _and_ euros, just we use
>>both pound and pounds now. For example, we say 'a five pound note', 'a
>>ten pound note', and a price like £5.50 is more likely to be said as
>>'five pound fifty' than 'five pounds fifty' tho £5.00 is more likely to
>>be 'five pounds' than 'five pound'.
>
>
> Over here, $5.50 would never be read "five dollar fity"; it would be
> either "five fifty"
'five fifty' sounds like a time reference ;)
But, yes, one does hear sometimes hear 'five fifty' as well as 'five
pound fifty' - but IME the latter is more common.
[snip]
>..... or "five dollars and fifty
> cents" (or "five and a half dollars"). The plural of "dollar" is
> always "dollars"
We would similarly use 'pounds' in similar contexts: 'five pound and
fifty pence" or "five and a half pounds".
(and adjective formations in English tend to eschew
> plurals, hence the "twenty-dollar bill" rather than the
> *"twenty-dollars bill"), so using "euro" in English sans -s sounds
> very strange. By which I mean, it sounds French. :)
To us Brits 'twould sound OK in some contexts, but not in all. IMO while
it is desirable to have an officially established form for the singular,
I think it would have been better to allow national languages to decide
their own plurals by usage.
>
>>Also I notice that no Irish forms were included.
>
>
> And no Esperanto! For shame, EU! :)
Um - not an official language of the EU. But all officially recognized
national languages are given official recognition by the EU. If it is
seen fit to include Irish on my EU pass-port surely Irish should have
been included among the official list of names of the currency?
But if there has to be an IAL included, surely Europanto has a greater
claim? ;-)
==============================
Tim May wrote:
> R A Brown wrote at 2006-01-07 20:15:39 (+0000)
[snip]
> >
> > While 'five euro fifty' will come quite naturally to us
> > anglophones, I find it difficult to imagine many people saying 'How
> > many euro have you got?'
> >
>
> Michael Everson, perhaps best known for his work on Unicode, has been
> vocal on this issue. See
>
> http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/
>
> particularly
> http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/todayfm.html and
> http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/open-letter.pdf
Good for him. I also agree with what he wrote about the unsuitability of
the word 'euro' in 1997:
http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/euroname.html
I too was disappointed at the time. 'ecu' was IMO better, tho I can see
the pesky "c" causing problems as over in central Europe it is likely to
be pronounce [etsu] and if one Turkey became a member of the EU and
adopted the common currency, I suppose it would get pronounced [edZu] :)
But I feel Michael was right in saying: "I would wager real money (yes,
an ecu would be fine) that the schoolchildren and artists of Europe
could do a better job than did 14 ministers sitting round a table."
Amen!
But now I fear it's too late to change the name - the
"culturally-ignorant bankers and politicians" have, methinks, won the
day on that. But let them not win on making the 'euro' and 'cent'
invariable in English! Heck - if the French, Spanish & Portuguese are
allowed to tack -s onto the plural, why can't anglophones? And the
French don't even bother to pronounce the -s they are permitted to keep ;)
This is just regulation gone barmy and one more example of the nonsense
that puts so many of my fellow countrymen off getting any more involved
with the EU (and I speak as a pro-European).
> >
> > The official directive seemed a tad over-prescriptive to me. Also I
> > notice that no Irish forms were included. Yet Ireland has adopted
> > the euro as it currency and AFAIU the Irish has the same official
> > standing as the other languages given.
>
> Only since June of last year.
Is that so? Wonder why it got onto my passport several years ago.
--
Ray
==================================
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==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
--
Ray
==================================
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http://www.carolandray.plus.com
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MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 21:11:54 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Nik Taylor wrote:
> Tristan McLeay wrote:
>
>> I don't really think I'd call that remotely OCD. ("Just a minute, let
>> me see if I've got any change.") That's really a very common practice
>
>
> Not in Kansas at least. I'm a cashier, and quite often, most people
> just give me one or two bills, just accumulating their coins and
> low-denomination bills. And then I hear people complain about how they
> have so much change! I regularly see people with several dollars worth
I'm also a cashier :) Interesting difference between here and there! I
suppose this makes your comment of 6.01.2006 "Like any other
denomination of coin, if you use them, they're not a problem" make more
sense.
> of coins (and keep in mind that $.25 is the largest common coin in the
> US). Not to mention ridiculously large numbers of low-denomination
> bills like 1's and 5's. I try to avoid having more than 4 pennies
> ($.01), 1 nickle ($.05), 2 dimes ($.10) or 3 quarters ($.25), likewise,
Does anyone know why American coins have names? It's always struck me as
very odd.
> I try to keep my paper at no more than four 1's, three $5's or one $10
> (it's not uncommon for registers to not have any $10's, so receiving
> back two or three $5's is fairly common). I find it mildly annoying
> when I slip up and receive a nickel when I already have one ... :-)
I tend to spend my $1 and $2 coins shortly after I get them (assuming I
put them in the right place ... if I put my $2 coins in the coin pocket
of my wallet I'm likely to forget them! They're really quite small,
marginally bigger than an Australian 5c coin, but somewhat thicker). On
the other hand, I tend to let most of my 5c, 10c and 20c coins
accumulate (at home), in case I decide to take the tram and have to buy
a ticket from the coin-only vending machines on board. It means I jingle
when I'm walking to the tramstop, but it also means I've got 'em if I
need 'em. 50c coins are in between, keeping them, using them...
>> ---about the only people who don't do it are the people who want to
>> try and take certain coins out of circulation (I've met a few people
>> who try and collect all the 5c coins they can---they obviously hate
>> them as much as I do).
>
> If you hate them, why would you collect them? Wouldn't you try to get
> rid of them, or simply leave them?
(I meant to say "hate them more than I do". That's what I was thinking
when I typed that, but my fingers sometimes have a life of their own.)
I think the idea is that they're trying to make it cost more to produce
them so the government's more likely to stop making them. I think part
of the rationale for getting rid of one and two dollar notes and one and
two cent coins is that they weren't in circulation much more than a
year. But I think it's a while before 5c coins would suffer that fate, I
tend to get a reasonable number from the 1970s and I've even had some
from 1966 (the year dollars and cents were introduced).
> But, yeah, it does seem like the US dollar and the Pound seem to be
> the accepted "standard currency value". Revalued currencies
> generally seem to aim for the vicinity of those.
Makes concepts like "millionaire" more comprable :) Though I suppose
inflation does the opposite---a millionaire of today is less impressive
than a millionaire of the 19th century.
>> Notes are notes, rarely paper money because hereabouts they're polymer
>> (another thing I don't get is why euros notes are paper.
>
> Yeah, from what I've read of polymer notes, I wish the US would do that,
> too. But, there's enough complaints about the minimal amount of color
> recently added that I'm not holding my breath on a rational currency any
> time soon ...
You're kidding me! What on earth can people have against having color in
notes?? Aren't your notes all about the same size, too? That must make
it very annoying being a cashier (at least before the added color),
you'd have to read every single note for its value. I barely glance at
them: pink=$5, blue=$10, red=$20, yellow=$50 and green=$100, growing in
size.
--
Tristan.
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