There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: How to learn an incomplete conlang?
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
From: Adrian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: How to learn an incomplete conlang?
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Proto-Indo-European, glottalic theory and consonant inventories.
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Proto-Indo-European, glottalic theory and consonant inventories.
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: OT Latin final -M
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. project Beta: Numbers
From: Jeff Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Minza spelling reform
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: How to learn an incomplete conlang?
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. OT: Species Name Translation
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Minza spelling reform
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. New Minza page on video game vocabulary
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Minza spelling reform
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: OT: Species Name Translation
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Minza spelling reform
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Minza spelling reform
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Minza spelling reform
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Minza spelling reform
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:28:02 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How to learn an incomplete conlang?
Quenya enthusiasts may want to note this conlang just headlined on langmaker:
http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Galadisian_Quenya
---L
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:15:49 +0000
From: Adrian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
Try the non-javascript version:
http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/ipachart_cons_pulm_fbmp3.html
On 25/01/06, Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> if I may ask, are there yet any sites that allow us to hear the sounds of
> X-Sampa?
>
>
> >Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 03:58:51 +0100
>
> > > >One is: http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/
>
> that one still doesn't have an audible portion, sadly.
>
> thoughts?
>
--
Ingolemo
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:18:57 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Sai Emrys wrote:
> Ray -
[snip]
>>Yes, it did. But when I understood the implication of _fully_, I was
>>convinced.
>
>
> How would *you* explain it to someone else? (E.g. 'pre-conversion' you :-P)
Thanks - that's a tall order :P
Let's see. First it might help to make it clear what it isn't.
I made the observation that all writing had to be 2D otherwise we'd not
see it! But these two 2D symbols (letters, syllbograms, characters or
whatever) are arranged _linearly_, and usually in 1 dimension linearly.
So not that!
Some writing systems do arrange their symbols in two dimensions to a
limited extent, e.g. Egyptian & Mayan hieroglyphics and the phonemic
elements of Korean writing. But in all theses, and similar systems
(including conscripts), the elements can be trivially re-arranged
linearly. So not these.
It is possible to arrange the elements of a sentence into a graphic
form, showing the relationship between the elements, as in the "box
analysis" we were taught in school. But such systems are merely fancy
arrangements of elements that can be trivially expressed linearly. Not
those.
It is possible to represent sentences in tree form as, for example, in a
'parse tree'. They are certainly 2D as such. But any tree form can, with
a fairly trivial traversal algorithm, be represented linearly. So not trees.
To be _fully_ 2D it must be at least a network, and something *that
cannot be recomposed in linear form _without loss of meaning_*.
Secondly, there must be positive reason for using two dimensions. It
should not be just linear stuff, recomposed, with a few extra 'fancy bits'.
What, I think, we are attempting is to represent thought without having
to process the thoughts through linear language. It is an attempt to
represent thought(s) as, say, a 'thought-web'.
> I ran into a similar problem a few days ago, when talking to a
> linguistics prof about this - she got stuck on the idea that it was
> 'non-temporal',
I suppose time as we perceive is linear. But to say the thing is
non-temporal is, I think, missing the point. Temporality is not what
this about. We are creatures of time & and thoughts occur in time.
> and kept overstating my position
IME a common habit of those who disagree with one another :)
> I think I left that conversation
> with her still thoroughly convinced that what I was talking about was
> completely impossible by everything she knew from linguistics and
> cogpsych -
Yes, an overstatement - to say something is _completely_ impossible is
often rash. I don't know how realizable such a non-linear full-2d
writing system is - perhaps it may prove impossible. But until we try we
will not know.
> and me with the impression that she didn't understand what
> I was trying to describe.
Probably a correct impression.
> But then, Lakoff said the same thing when he gave me a F on my paper
> about it. It'll probably be one of those nice things to frame and put
> on my wall, once (if? nah, 'once') I succeed in making such a system.
> :-P
Yep - one must be positive.
> Yahya -
[snip]
>>.......... And your latest posts on
>>this topic are more concerned than ever with the
>>idea of writing expressing a gestalt, with higher-
>>level connections.
Gestalt - yep, that's the sort of idea, I think.
>> Sometimes I thinnk the ideal
>>poem would be like that - a simple, integrated whole.
Yep - that's the sort of thing!
>>Indeed, I hadn't yet joined this list in May, so I
>>had better follow Ray's advice and look up the
>>original thread.
>
> No offense taken. Please do read those, and let us know what you think
> about the idea once you have.
Quite a bit of reading - but, yes, I too would be interested in what you
think.
> I (and others here most likely) could
> use some more inspiration / ideas about how this could be done.
Count me in as one of those others.
> I'm currently a bit stuck on it - pending, as you say, the gestalt.
> It's like poetry-writing for me; I can't really force myself to do it
> is. And in this case, while I have a few ideas of how I want it to
> work, and various angles at it, I don't have a good feeling of the
> gestalt.
>
> I figure that once I do, the rest will come pretty quickly though.
'Tis a nice thought - let's hope it's true :)
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:53:22 -0800
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How to learn an incomplete conlang?
--- Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes. These problems are part of the reason why I
> abstain from those
> communities. All that bickering about
> reconstructions and fill-ins turned
> me off.
Klingonists are the same way, let me assure you. The
use of anything non-canon or a non-canonical use of
some attested word will send some of them in to
appoplexy!
Adam
Pochini ninadud ul Jezu in ul Betuemi djal Juda in ils djis djul Errodu ul regu
iñi! aviniruns junis maguis djil ojindi ad al Jerosolima, dichindu: «¿Jundi
esti ul regu djuls Ivreus fin ninadud? Pervia avemus spepadu al su steja in il
ojindi ed avemus avinidu adorari ad sivi.»
Mach 2:1-2
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:48:18 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
>From: Adrian <>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:15:49 +0000
>
>Try the non-javascript version:
>http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/ipachart_cons_pulm_fbmp3.html
well, that opened my copy of Windows Media Player...but then a little box
popped up, with the message _Reached the end of the file_. (even when I hit
the Play button again, same response)...and no sound.
but I appreciate your help, friend.
thanks.
>
>On 25/01/06, Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > if I may ask, are there yet any sites that allow us to hear the sounds
>of
> > X-Sampa?
> >
> >
> > >Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 03:58:51 +0100
> >
> > > > >One is: http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/
> >
> > that one still doesn't have an audible portion, sadly.
> >
> > thoughts?
> >
>
>
>
>--
>Ingolemo
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:11:49 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
Rodlox wrote:
> >From: Adrian <>
> >Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
> >Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:15:49 +0000
> >
> >Try the non-javascript version:
> >http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/ipachart_cons_pulm_fbmp3.html
>
> well, that opened my copy of Windows Media Player...but then a little box
> popped up, with the message _Reached the end of the file_. (even when I
> hit
> the Play button again, same response)...and no sound.
>
> but I appreciate your help, friend.
> thanks.
>
Try: http://tinyurl.com/3mq33
or the non-condensed original:
http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
Perhaps you need a new version of Media Player-- I just went to the site,
clicked to hear a sound-- and got a download of MP, even though I already
have it on my computer. Strange, but it worked.
Their versions sound better to my ear than the other site's, in any case.
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:11:31 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Yahya Abdal-Aziz wrote:
> Hi Jeff, or do you prefer Jefferson?
Whichever won't be confused.
> If I understand you correctly, the GA is concerned with
> encoding ideas rather than speech, and (possibly) with
> encoding the relationships between ideas rather than
> between parts of speech.
I actually haven't thought about this. I'd say that the Glyphica
Arcana encodes "conceptual structures." That is the individual
glyphs represent concepts, which are then organized and placed in
patterns which correspond to normal linguistic sentences. I
haven't done enough development at this point to begin linking
sentences into larger structures.
> The rôle of the markers you mention is unclear to me.
They provide the GA's grammar: coordination (conjunctions),
distinction (subject, object, adjective, etc.), transformation
(gerunds, infinitives, etc.), allocation (modifications on the
separate distinctions).
> However, since you identify four natural areas for their
> attachment to glyphs, it seems likely that the results could
> not be understood as having less than five dimensions.
I don't think coordination markers count since they don't change
the meaning of the base glyph, but I actually think five
dimensions is conservative.
> Where can I learn more about teh GA?
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:41:28 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
>From: Roger Mills <>
thank you.
>Try: http://tinyurl.com/3mq33
that works; thanks.
>or the non-condensed original:
>http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
this also works.
>Perhaps you need a new version of Media Player--
I hope not...I've spent the morning (and hte past week-or-so) making music
vids for a fic.
thanks everyone, for all your time.
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:05:43 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Indo-European, glottalic theory and consonant inventories.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 03:33:44 +0100, Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Having reread Gamkrelidze and Ivanov's work for about
>the tenth time, I decided to skim the Wikipedia
>article
>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottalic_theory) on
>Proto-Indo-European, to get an idea of what the
>current state of the theory is.
>
>About midway through the article, I see what appears
>to be a more recent reconstruction of the PIE
>consonant system, which goes something like this:
>
>voiceless --> p - t - k - q - k_w
>ejective/glottalized --> (p') - t' - k' - q' - k_w'
>aspirated --> p_h - t_h - k_h - q_h - k_w_h
>
>The first thing I wondered was, who proposed this
>system, and when? It's interesting. For one, it posits
>a complete uvular system, something that's
>typologically a little marked (I mean, neither Quechua
>nor the Kartvelian languages typically show such a
>three-way contrast, right?).
>
>The article did mention that the uvular-velar contrast
>was probably allophonic, and corresponded to the
>traditional plain velar vs. palatalized velar
>contrast, so the table should be more like this, by
>that token:
>
>voiceless--> p - t - k - k_j - k_w
>ejective/glottalized --> (p') - t' - k' - k_j' - k_w'
>aspirated --> p_h - t_h - k_h - k_j_h - k_w_h
>
>Anyways, is there any actual support for this
>supposition, that PIE had an opposition between plain,
>ejective/glottalized, and aspirated stops (voicing's
>either non-existent or non-contrastive in all three
>series)?
>
>What are the 'holes' in the theory? Am I totally
>misinterpreting all this?
>
>(I know, Wikipedia's hardly a good source for such
>relatively obscure scholarly material as this, but
>until I figure out how to navigate my university's
>labyrinthine journal archives, I'm stuck with that)
The rationale for the glottalic theory is the typological unlikelihood of
the traditional inventory of stops reconstructed for IE, namely:
Voiceless: p t k^ k kW
Voiced: b d g^ g gW
Voiced Aspirated: bh dh g^h gh gWh
No language has ever been encountered that makes such a contrast among its
stop series. Every language known with voiced aspirated stops also has
voiceless aspirated stops (the prime example being Sanskrit). As a result,
the glottalic theory is an attempt to reconcile this typological
unlikelihood, with the plain voiced stops actually being voiceless
glottalized stops and the plain voiceless and voiced aspirated stops
actually being plain voiceless and plain voiced stops (respectively) with
aspirated allophones. In such a way, then, IE roots that traditionally
have two voiced aspirated stops now have two voiced stops, one of which may
be allophonically (then phonemically) aspirated. (IIRC, there isn't any
descendant language where both stops "remain" aspirated.) Evidence in
favor of this view comes from differing "directions" of "aspiration
dissimilation": progressive (e.g. Latin) vs. regressive (e.g. Greek,
Sanskrit). Only two IE groups that I know of, Germanic and Armenian,
underwent a process of regularizing aspirated allophones of the voiceless
stops (e.g. Grimm's Law in Germanic). However, it is very possible that
the Celtic languages underwent such a process as well, albeit only with
*/p/; as that phoneme is lost in the attested Celtic languages, it is very
possible that its development was something like */p/ > */p_h/ > */f/ >
*/h/ > */0/. There are many existing languages that have underwent similar
changes, e.g. Arabic (*/p/ > /f/), Japanese (*/p/ > /h/), and High German
(*/p/ > /pf/, */p/ > /f/). (There's an Altaic language that also lost
*/p/, but I forget which one. Mongolian? Manchu?)
- Rob
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:23:42 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Indo-European, glottalic theory and consonant inventories.
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:23:17 -0500, Paul Bennett <paul-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:33:44 -0500, Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>> voiceless--> p - t - k - k_j - k_w
>> ejective/glottalized --> (p') - t' - k' - k_j' - k_w'
>> aspirated --> p_h - t_h - k_h - k_j_h - k_w_h
>
>My own notation uses:
>
>p t c k q
>p' t' c' k' q'
>ph th ch kh qh
My notation is:
p t k q
p' t' k' q'
b d g G
As you can see, I don't reconstruct a palatalized velar stop series for IE.
- Rob
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:20:12 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT Latin final -M
Andreas Johansson wrote:
[snip]
>
> Checking the book again, I see I may have misinterpreted him. He writes, when
> discussing change is pronunciation during the late Empire, that final /m/ was
> lost "fairly early" - I took this to mean fairly early during the late
> imperial
> period, but there really isn't anything to tell relative to what the loss was
> fairly early. Maybe he meant fairly early in the history of spoken Latin.
If so, then I agree entirely.
==================================
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> So how far back must one go before the common pronunciation of Latin
> matches the CL prescription?
I doubt very much if there ever was a time. Classical Latin is
essentially a prescription, based on Greek models, of what the literati
thought Latin should be like. A bit like Sanskrit, I suppose, except
that the Romans never had a Panini to make a proper job of it :)
The reconstructions of people like Sidney Allen are reconstructions of
pronunciation the literate classes would have used in pronouncing the
'purified' language. I suspect people like Caesar & Cicero were
trilingual: Classical Latin, Vulgar Latin, Koine Greek.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:38:50 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
R A Brown wrote:
> To be _fully_ 2D it must be at least a network, and something *that
> cannot be recomposed in linear form _without loss of meaning_*.
>
> Secondly, there must be positive reason for using two dimensions. It
> should not be just linear stuff, recomposed, with a few extra 'fancy bits'.
Hmmm. I was going to say that my Glyphica Arcana
(http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html) can
be recomposed in linear form without loss of meaning. However,
that turns out not to be true. Take for example, babeltext verse
5 (towards the end of the above page), "examine the city and
the structure." "The city" glyph is above the "examine" glyph
with "the structure" to the right of "examine." This structure
gives equal importance to "the city" and "the structure" without
the need for an actual "and" coordination marker. However, when
recomposed in a linear form an "and" marker is required, which
would make either "the city" or "the structure" of secondary
importance. (Verbally, of course, such distinctions are made by
tone, stress, or even physical expression, not wording.)
As time goes on I'm sure more cases will developed where meaning
is lost when recomposed from the standard 2d layout to a linear one.
Also; poetry in the GA is defined by a regular and balanced
structure. Such can be seen in the translation of "The One Ring"
towards the end of the above page. (There are a few too many
duplicated symbols for it to be "good" poetry, but it shows the
format.)
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:07:06 -0800
From: Jeff Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: project Beta: Numbers
For one of my new sketches, I've come up with a set of number words
that can handle cardinals from 1 to 9999. Comments are encouraged.
1. da
2. sóci
3. kóli
4. scíri
5. zóbi
6. dazbi
7. skózbi
8. klizbi
9. scirózbi
10. zbíri
11. zbirge dai
12. zbirge sóci
etc.
20. sókrou zbíri
21. sókrou zbirge dai
etc.
30. klírou zbíri
40. scírou zbíri
50. zóbrou zbíri
60. dazbrou zbíri
etc.
100. zózbi
6789 = dazbrou zbirge skózbrou zózboge klizbrou zbirge scirózbi
I'm not sure I like it, looking at it a second time; too many z's.
Jeff
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:51:33 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Minza spelling reform
I've made some minor changes to the spelling of Minza. There's also a
relatively new page there with general notes on Minza vocabulary and how
words are borrowed (which has been up for a while in preliminary form,
but I don't think I've announced it yet). Among other things it
describes the system of word components (luakí) and how they are used in
borrowing words from Chinese and Japanese.
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Minza/index.html
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Minza/Minza-vocabulary.html
The goal of the spelling reform is to keep things from getting too
complicated; I changed the letter ö to ø so that the rare accented
version would have a convenient single character representation (Ç¿, as
opposed to öÌ), and I replaced the digraphs with accented characters (n
in place of ng, ǧ in place of gh). I also simplified the phonology by
removing /w/ and /j/, replacing them in some cases with the vowels /u/
and /i/, and in other cases with /v/ and /z/ (pronounced [Z]).
One thing I'm not sure about is whether it's a good thing to use "ǧ" (g
with wedge/caron) to represent [G]. I think it's nice that most of the
accented consonants (except l-slash, l) use the same diacritic (a
wedge), but on the web page "ǧ" shows up in a different font than the
rest of the text since it's not in the default Times New Roman font (and
I suspect not in most readers' default web fonts either). And I don't
even know what sounds are typically written with g-wedge, so I don't
know how unusual it would be to use it to represent [G]. I was
considering "g" (g-breve) for a while, but I liked the symmetry of using
the wedge for everything.
Another thing that's still in flux is the marking of stress. When stress
is marked, it's simply an acute accent on the stressed vowel, but the
thing I'm uncertain about is when to mark it. The easiest to read would
be to always mark stress, but that would result in most words having
accent marks. There aren't any simple rules for stress placement; it
depends on the word. But the tendency is to stress the vowel of a
monosyllabic root, or the next to last vowel of a root with more than
one syllable. A few suffixes override the stress on the main root. And
now that "j" has been merged with "i", I need to distinguish between
"íe" (with the stress on the "i") and "ié" (with the stress on the "e").
I could just go without marking stress, except in cases where it makes a
phonemic difference and in names.
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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:31:30 +0000
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How to learn an incomplete conlang?
on 1/25/06 6:53 PM, Adam Walker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> --- Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Yes. These problems are part of the reason why I
>> abstain from those
>> communities. All that bickering about
>> reconstructions and fill-ins turned
>> me off.
>
> Klingonists are the same way, let me assure you. The
> use of anything non-canon or a non-canonical use of
> some attested word will send some of them in to
> appoplexy!
>
> Adam
Reminds me of the times I dropped in on an AOL "Star Wars vs. Star Trek"
chatroom.
I consistently managed to insult both cliques ;)
Some of you Conlanglist ol'timers recall how much hate email I got...
One reaaaally bored jackass emailed me 269 emails in one day!!!
I was getting hate emails for a good year and 1/2!!!
(And, no I did not save any of it... and I am no longer on AOLhell.)
--
Hanuman Zhang
"Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies peace." - A Course In Miracles
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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:20:03 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Species Name Translation
Would someone knowledgeable in the classical languages mind
translating Triteleia laxa (a species name) for me?
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:41:10 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minza spelling reform
On 1/26/06, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One thing I'm not sure about is whether it's a good thing to use "ǧ" (g
> with wedge/caron) to represent [G].
I wasn't sure, either.
> And I don't
> even know what sounds are typically written with g-wedge,
http://www.eki.ee/letter/chardata.cgi?search=g+with+caron only knows
of Skolt Sámi as the only language using that letter; I don't know
what value the letter has there, though.
> I was considering "g" (g-breve) for a while
That's the first thing that came to _my_ mind, based on old Turkish
where g-breve was [G], if you're going to use a Latin-based
orthography. Otherwise, of course, gamma is a possibility.
(I would also have considered using eng, rather than n-caron, for [N].
N-caron seems like [J] to me... AFAIK that's its value in Czech.)
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 00:26:24 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: New Minza page on video game vocabulary
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Minza/Minza-games.html
This page grew out of my reply to Arthaey Angosii's thread "Preparing
for Winter-een-mas" from 1/13. In addition to the titles of video and
arcade games (revised to the new Minza spelling), I've added two
sections on specific names and terminology in the Pokémon and Legend of
Zelda series of games. Nothing much yet, but I go over the derivation of
the Minza words for "Venusaur" (Dazebiréi) and "Machop" (Calbar), from
luakí components that correspond to the Japanese names, and a handful of
names from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time including "Hyrule"
(Xáirøl) and "Skulltula" (Stalcura). I'll be expanding these with more
words, and perhaps add some of the Prince's cousins from Katamari
Damacy, characters and places from Baten Kaitos, or others as I get time
over the next few days....
Happy Winter-een-mas!
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 00:41:26 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minza spelling reform
Philip Newton wrote:
> On 1/26/06, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>I was considering "g" (g-breve) for a while
>
>
> That's the first thing that came to _my_ mind, based on old Turkish
> where g-breve was [G], if you're going to use a Latin-based
> orthography. Otherwise, of course, gamma is a possibility.
Well, I don't want to switch keyboards just for one letter, but I could
add gamma to the Latin keyboard if I need to. Still, there aren't many
options for accented g's. There's, what... g-dot, g-acute, g-circumflex
(and the Baltic g-cedilla with the turned comma above the g) ... a few
others, but nothing that looks much better than g-breve or g-wedge.
> (I would also have considered using eng, rather than n-caron, for [N].
> N-caron seems like [J] to me... AFAIK that's its value in Czech.)
I have a chart from the early days of Minza, showing the correspondence
between Minza phonemes and sounds from other languages, which gives
Minza "ng" as the equivalent of [J] as well as [N]. At one time [J] was
going to be the sound of this phoneme in initial position, and [N] in
final position. So it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to write it as
n-caron, especially if I reintroduce this allophonic variation.
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:40:38 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Species Name Translation
Jefferson Wilson wrote:
> Would someone knowledgeable in the classical languages mind translating
> Triteleia laxa (a species name) for me?
Sure.
Triteleia - Latinized form from Greek: tri- = three + the adjective
_teleios_ = perfect, complete. The name, I understand, refers to floral
parts being in threes
A Greek *triteleios (thrice-complete) would be Latinized as *triteleius
and Triteleia is the feminine form.
laxa is simply the feminine of the Latin adjective _laxus_ = loose,
slack.
Triteleia laxa = loose/slack thrice-complete [flower]
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:09:49 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minza spelling reform
On 1/26/06, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Isn't there a g with a bar through the descender?
Something like this, you mean?
http://www.eki.ee/letter/chardata.cgi?search=g+with+stroke
Also used only in Skolt Sámi, to the best of that database's knowledge.
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:57:34 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minza spelling reform
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:41:26 -0500, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Philip Newton wrote:
>> On 1/26/06, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I was considering "g" (g-breve) for a while
>> That's the first thing that came to _my_ mind, based on old Turkish
>> where g-breve was [G], if you're going to use a Latin-based
>> orthography. Otherwise, of course, gamma is a possibility.
>
> Well, I don't want to switch keyboards just for one letter, but I could
> add gamma to the Latin keyboard if I need to. Still, there aren't many
> options for accented g's. There's, what... g-dot, g-acute, g-circumflex
> (and the Baltic g-cedilla with the turned comma above the g) ... a few
> others, but nothing that looks much better than g-breve or g-wedge.
Isn't there a g with a bar through the descender? I could see that
working, after the b-bar and d-bar model.
Paul
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 01:10:51 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
> > How would *you* explain it to someone else? (E.g. 'pre-conversion' you
:-P)
>
> Thanks - that's a tall order :P
>
> Let's see. First it might help to make it clear what it isn't.
[snip]
> To be _fully_ 2D it must be at least a network, and something *that
> cannot be recomposed in linear form _without loss of meaning_*.
>
> Secondly, there must be positive reason for using two dimensions. It
> should not be just linear stuff, recomposed, with a few extra 'fancy
bits'.
>
> What, I think, we are attempting is to represent thought without having
> to process the thoughts through linear language. It is an attempt to
> represent thought(s) as, say, a 'thought-web'.
Good! This is roughly where I have determined that Sai was coming from ...
[snip]
> >>.......... And your latest posts on
> >>this topic are more concerned than ever with the
> >>idea of writing expressing a gestalt, with higher-
> >>level connections.
>
> Gestalt - yep, that's the sort of idea, I think.
>
> >> Sometimes I thinnk the ideal
> >>poem would be like that - a simple, integrated whole.
>
> Yep - that's the sort of thing!
>
> >>Indeed, I hadn't yet joined this list in May, so I
> >>had better follow Ray's advice and look up the
> >>original thread.
> >
> > No offense taken. Please do read those, and let us know what you think
> > about the idea once you have.
>
> Quite a bit of reading - but, yes, I too would be interested in what you
> think.
Well, I will try to make some time to do so, but can make no
promises, as my plate is overflowing right now. If I can free
up some time, I would really rather focus on how to represent
a network of concepts usefully. Would this be missing the
point altogether?
> > I (and others here most likely) could
> > use some more inspiration / ideas about how this could be done.
>
> Count me in as one of those others.
>
> > I'm currently a bit stuck on it - pending, as you say, the gestalt.
> > It's like poetry-writing for me; I can't really force myself to do it
> > is. And in this case, while I have a few ideas of how I want it to
> > work, and various angles at it, I don't have a good feeling of the
> > gestalt.
> >
> > I figure that once I do, the rest will come pretty quickly though.
>
> 'Tis a nice thought - let's hope it's true :)
Hope
Only
Poets
Elucidate
Regards,
Yahya
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/240 - Release Date: 25/1/06
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:37:59 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minza spelling reform
Herman Miller skrev:
> One thing I'm not sure about is whether it's a good thing to use "ǧ" (g
> with wedge/caron) to represent [G]. I think it's nice that most of the
> accented consonants (except l-slash, l) use the same diacritic (a
> wedge), but on the web page "ǧ" shows up in a different font than the
> rest of the text since it's not in the default Times New Roman font (and
> I suspect not in most readers' default web fonts either). And I don't
> even know what sounds are typically written with g-wedge, so I don't
> know how unusual it would be to use it to represent [G]. I was
> considering "g" (g-breve) for a while, but I liked the symmetry of using
> the wedge for everything.
The most well-known use of g-wedge is as a device in transliterating
Arabic, since the letter pronounced [dZ] in other places is pronounced
[g] in Egyptian Arabic, so from that perspective g-wedhe for [G] is
dead wrong. Semiticists and Indologists generally use g with a dot
above and Germanicists use g with a line through the descender, while
Turkicists use g-breve and Mongolianists gamma. I would recommend
g-dot since it is in the Latin Extended A range and hence in Times
New Roman, but I have another more radical suggestion, namely to use
q (yes /kju:/!) since the Arabic letter usually transliterated q
is pronounced [G] or [R] in Persian. The UniPers suggested Roman
alphabet for Persian uses q generally for [G]/[R]. Simplified
phonetic transcription of Icelandic also uses q for [G], since
Icelandic can then be transcribed using the characters on an
ordinary Icelandic keyboard, using I Y ö e for /I Y 2 E/.
I also have to admit that my conlang family Sohlob also
uses q for /G/.
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:06:22 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Minza spelling reform
On 1/26/06, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Semiticists and Indologists generally use g with a dot
> above and Germanicists use g with a line through the descender, while
> Turkicists use g-breve and Mongolianists gamma.
FWIW, Maltese gh-digraph also represented [G], and I'm told it may
still be pronounced that way in some rural areas. (In standard
Maltese, it's now not pronounced as a consonant but affects the length
and/or quality of the neighbouring vowels, perhaps a bit like Turkish
g.)
(Maltese ghajn derives from both Arabic ghayn [G] and `ayn [?\], which
fell together into one phoneme in Maltese.)
But the digraph may not be attractive.
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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