There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Sounds of Quenya?
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Quenya/Sindarin resources?
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: project Beta: Numbers
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: More Gwr sound changes
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Quenya/Sindarin resources?
From: Kris Kowal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: "David G. Durand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Good-Bye
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. OT: Happy New Years!
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Quenya/Sindarin resources?
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: OT: nonlinear fiction -- was: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing
(again)
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Concept maps
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: OT: Happy New Years!
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: OT: Happy New Years!
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Concept maps
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Quenya/Sindarin resources?
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: "David G. Durand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. To What Extent is Standard Finnish a Conlang?
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:18:25 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Paul Bennett wrote:
> a writing system where any number
> of branches may be possible for some given grapheme.
Impossible. If nothing else you run across limits in your
medium. Even if it weren't impossible I don't feel this is a
desired goal since it would complicate comprehension to no
apparent benefit.
> I don't know where
> this space-filling stuff came from, to be honest. I rather feel it may
> be some form of boojum.
In space filling systems information is contained in the tokens
(shapes) themselves. Since you appear to be defining connections
separately from tokens the design does not need to be
space-filling. However, since connections are encoded separately
from tokens as your connections increase so does the average
significant distance between tokens, and the time required to use
those connections.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:09:36 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:52:29 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> 1 2 3
>>> \|/
>>> 4-O-5
>>> /|\
>>> 6 7 8
>
> This shows a system made up of paired (2) connections. "\" (link)
> connects to "1" and "O." "O" only has one connection, to link. Also in
> this scheme "2" cannot immediately link to "5" since it becomes
> indeterminate whether that also links "2" to "3" or "O."
Again, you're thinking in complicated and obfuscated mathematical jargon.
Look at it as a purely graphical device. Forget the specialized technical
meanings you have learned for words like "connection" and "link" and think
of it as you might if you were an ordinary, average schoolchild, learning
to write using that system. O is (non-technically) connected to eight
other objects, by means of the eight lines which each lead to one of them.
Most people do not conlang based on the axioms of information theory. I
don't see why we should be con-scripting based on the axioms of map
theory. If you're a loglanger, or potentially some other kind of
engelanger, they're admirable goals to be sure, but for the rank and file
they're somewhat lofty and obscure, and IMO ought to remain so, lest our
craft become nothing more than a science.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:42:28 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sounds of Quenya?
Aiya!
Paul Bennett tencë:
> So, I think I'm getting a handle on the sounds of Quenya. Here's what I
> understand. Please comment with corrections.
Think rather of Spanish or Italian sounds. I believe the continantal values
are close to the ideal Quenya pronunciation than any IPA from anglophonic
perspective. So I would expect vowels [a], [e]/[E], [I] - that's the
difference, [o]/[O] and [u]. [p], [t], [k] - without aspiration, [d], [t],
[l], [n] - dental, not alveolar. |ty| and |ny| are clearly [c] and [J].
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:35:38 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Quenya/Sindarin resources?
Aiya!
Sharon tencë:
> My personal favorites:
>
> http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/
> The Ardalambion has a Quenya Course with lessons that you may find useful.
>
> http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/
> The Fellowship of the Word Smiths has a small (incomplete?) course on
> Sindarin, as well as translations of the lines found in the movie.
I would add
http://www.xs4all.nl/%7exelag/quenya.html
- grammar tables and topical wordlists;
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/
http://home.netcom.com/~heensle/lang/elvish/elvish.html
are also worth seeing.
For a good dictionary, google for "Quettaparma Quenyanna" (I did not
bookmark it, having downloaded it to my HDD).
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:55:56 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:52:29 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>>> 1 2 3
>>>> \|/
>>>> 4-O-5
>>>> /|\
>>>> 6 7 8
>>
>> This shows a system made up of paired (2) connections. "\" (link)
>> connects to "1" and "O." "O" only has one connection, to link. Also
>> in this scheme "2" cannot immediately link to "5" since it becomes
>> indeterminate whether that also links "2" to "3" or "O."
>
> Again, you're thinking in complicated and obfuscated mathematical
> jargon.
No I'm thinking about what is needed to convey information. If
you have another definition, feel free to define it. If you
don't provide a definition then there's no way I can use it or
understand what you're getting at.
> Look at it as a purely graphical device. Forget the specialized
> technical meanings you have learned for words like "connection" and
> "link" and think of it as you might if you were an ordinary, average
> schoolchild, learning to write using that system. O is
> (non-technically) connected to eight other objects, by means of the
> eight lines which each lead to one of them.
So what? This is a discussion about the theory _behind_
"arbitrary degree of connection." Supply your definition or
theory, and I'll use it (to the extent it makes sense). Until
you do I _have_ to use the definition that I'm familiar with.
An average schoolchild doesn't see any need to include a "'" in
"won't" or, indeed, to use any punctuation whatsoever. Does that
mean the average schoolchild is correct in so doing?
> Most people do not conlang based on the axioms of information theory. I
> don't see why we should be con-scripting based on the axioms of map
> theory.
We AREN'T con-scripting. We're THEORIZING ABOUT conscripting.
If you can't see how map theory applies to conscripting theory I
pity you.
If you want to talk about con-scripting, feel free to address my
Glyphica Arcana
(http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html) and
explain why I shouldn't have restricted connections per glyph to
six, or how further connections could be added without adding to
interpretation time, or anything else you please. Until you
bring in a real example though, we're talking THEORY not PRACTICE!
> If you're a loglanger, or potentially some other kind of
> engelanger, they're admirable goals to be sure, but for the rank and
> file they're somewhat lofty and obscure, and IMO ought to remain so,
> lest our craft become nothing more than a science.
From your response, I've done my part. I've explained my what I
mean. You have totally failed to explain what _you_ mean.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:12:51 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:55:56 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Again, you're thinking in complicated and obfuscated mathematical
>> jargon.
>
> No I'm thinking about what is needed to convey information.
No, you're not. I can convey information in ways that are utterly outside
your "needed" theory, just by drawing word symbols in an arrangement that
I invent as I see fit.
> If you have another definition, feel free to define it.
Yes: a connection is some kind graphical mark that is used indicate some
kind of semantic or syntactic link between two symbols in a written
language, which connection may be more or less defined by the rules of
that specific writing system, and may more or less be constrained by the
type of connection in writing systems that allow and define more than one
type of connection. It is, in short, a graphical object, not a
mathematical construct. It's a definition which does not require a degree
in higher mathematics to understand (nor indeed much of a familiarity with
linguistic theory), and I would have thought it was a definition which is
immediately and instinctively apparent to any nonspecialised reader.
>> Most people do not conlang based on the axioms of information theory.
>> I don't see why we should be con-scripting based on the axioms of map
>> theory.
>
> We AREN'T con-scripting. We're THEORIZING ABOUT conscripting. If you
> can't see how map theory applies to conscripting theory I pity you.
We are indeed theorizing. I feel that what you're doing is more akin to
theorizing about theorizing about conscripting. A second-order or meta
theorizing, I'd argue, and in terms of specialized mathematical theory
rather than terms of linguistics. I don't *care* what Spazinsky's Reverse
Superinflation Theory says about the number of n-thoganal polyspaces
containable within a left handed screwdriver, if I can quickly and
trivially draw a doodle that operates outside that theory.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:24:09 -0500
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: project Beta: Numbers
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:55:37 +0200, John Vertical
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Jeff Jones wrote:
>>For one of my new sketches, I've come up with a set of number words
>>that can handle cardinals from 1 to 9999. Comments are encouraged.
>>
>>1. da
>>2. sóci
>>3. kóli
>>4. scíri
>>5. zóbi
>>6. dazbi
>>7. skózbi
>>8. klizbi
>>9. scirózbi
>>10. zbíri
>>11. zbirge dai
>>12. zbirge sóci
>> etc.
>>20. sókrou zbíri
>>21. sókrou zbirge dai
>> etc.
>>30. klírou zbíri
>>40. scírou zbíri
>>50. zóbrou zbíri
>>60. dazbrou zbíri
>> etc.
>>100. zózbi
>>
>>6789 = dazbrou zbirge skózbrou zózboge klizbrou zbirge scirózbi
>
>Very nicely translucent. Is there any meaning to the c<>k alternation or is
>it purely decorative?
Thanks. It's the result of sound change; the i changes k to c.
>If I were you, I'd regularize the tens marker of 11-19 from -ge to -ou (it
>seems like a fairly European thing in the first place), but that's just my
>opinion there.
Well, -ge indicates addition and -rou indicates multiplication. E.g.
21. sókrou zbirge dai
2 * 10 + 1-Plur
>>I'm not sure I like it, looking at it a second time; too many z's.
>>
>>Jeff
>
>Well, all the z's apparently stem from "zóbi". If there's some phoneme you
>*can* stand in abundance, you could just change that there. Or am I missing
>something?
No that's a good suggestion. I'll try to think of something.
>
>John Vertical
>=========================================================================
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:37:37 -0500
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Gwr sound changes
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:50:42 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>A revised (but still prelim) pdf has been uploaded to my site--
>http://cinduworld.tripod.com/gwr_soundchange.pdf -- containing some new
>introductory material (a bit of history/development), plus it now covers
all
>CVCV forms, initial/final stress. (final stress begins on p.10). As before,
>comments welcome.
>
>Am hard at work on the CVCVC forms, but it's causing extreme brain-pain
>:-)))
>=========================================================================
No helpful comments from me -- I have trouble keeping track of a half-page
of sound changes. But it looks like a professional publication, no surprise.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:52:29 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Sai Emrys wrote:
> On 1/29/06, Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Arbitrary in my use: any node can be connected to any number of other
>>nodes. (assuming it's on the node-and-connection sort of style, which
>>it need not be if it has a fusional morphology)
What's fusional morpholgy?
>>I still don't see how you can say it's 6. Could you please show me the math?
>>
>>I'm not sure about cases where 'neighbors' are directly touching, but
>>it's obviously false if they can be simply connected by lines. E.g.:
>>
>>[paste this into a notepad w/ an equal-width font]
>>
>>1 2 3
>> \|/
>>4-O-5
>> /|\
>>6 7 8
This shows a system made up of paired (2) connections. "\"
(link) connects to "1" and "O." "O" only has one connection, to
link. Also in this scheme "2" cannot immediately link to "5"
since it becomes indeterminate whether that also links "2" to "3"
or "O."
>>... and that's not even using multiple 'layers', or variable length
>>connecting lines, branching ones, or anything like that.
>
> Actually, no - simpler:
> 123
> 4O5
> 678
>
> There, you have 8 connections, all directly touching the central
> character, all of the same size.
No you have 4 (primary) connections since there's no real-world
way for items 1, 3, 6, and 8 to actually contact O, and there's
no means for distinguishing O-3 connections from 2-4 connections.
To distinguish O-3 from 2-4 you'll need to add gaps in the pattern
12
4O5
67
which in turn brings the connections down to 6.
In the system:
1 3
\2/
4O5
/7\
6 8
"O" has five connections: 2, 4, 5, 7, and link, at the expense of
wasted space. (Thus, this is a system of connectivity 5 that
isn't space-filling.)
Connectivity is very important in circuit-board design and you
might to look up the constraints involved in that area.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:39:14 -0800
From: Kris Kowal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Quenya/Sindarin resources?
I did the footwork to look up Quettaparma Quenyanna. Turned out to be
an easy google. Has yahoo popups:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2196/wordlist.html
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:09:37 -0500
From: "David G. Durand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
I was reading this thread out of interest, and now I'm feeling some
annoyance, because both Jefferson and Sai are flaming, and not
attempting to understand the other person's point of view.
mathematically, Sai is talking about a graphical system in the form of
a planar graph of meaning bearing nodes connected by links. Arbitrary
branching means that he is interested in graphs for which the degree
of any node is unbounded -- except by the communicational and
conceptual limitations and intent of the creator and reader.
Jefferson is assuming that the only proper way such a system can work
is as a space-filling network of regular adjacent convex cells, (a
convex tesselation of the plane) in which case 6 is the maximum
connectivity, when connection is defined by sharing an edge. This is
one way to create such a system of signs, in which case you can have a
per-cell branching factor of three (triangles), four (squares), or six
(hexagons). You could increase the options to include 1,2,5 if you
agree to allow some sides of cells not to be used.
While the notion of a space-filling notation is pretty cool, it's
surely not the _only_ sensible way to define a 2D language. Planarity
may be a problem for graphs, and the people may have very restricted
practical ability (in my experience) to visually parse many "jump
connectors" when representing non-planar graphs on the plane
The desire for definition is good, but must be moderated by a
willingness to help frame it in terms that others can understand.
The desire to point to the not-yet defined is also good, but must be
moderated by willingness to work out the details collaboratively with
the interested without dismissing their detail-orientation as
irrelevant.
I hope that by laying out the two techniques envisioned, it's clear
why the claim "I can have as many connections to another semantic
point as I need can be true for one notation (graphs of links and
nodes), and false for another (convex tessellation of the plane).
-- David
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:09:56 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Good-Bye
David G. Durand wrote:
> I was reading this thread out of interest, and now I'm feeling some
> annoyance, because both Jefferson and Sai are flaming, and not
> attempting to understand the other person's point of view.
I joined this list in the hope that I would find help with my own
conlang project and find a community with whom I could discuss
things of mutual interest. Since joining this this list I have
received no help, little support, and found no mutual interests.
Now my attempts to present a workable definition in the hopes
that someone will correct my understanding are described as
flames. In the current discussion I have been insulted and
belittled and responded politely, but with understandable
frustration.
That is enough. This list ranks well up in the top 10
unfriendliest lists I have ever tried to participate in, and I am
unsubscribing.
Good Bye.
--
Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:18:51 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Happy New Years!
Happy New Year of the Hegira to all our Muslim colleagues!
Happy New Lunar Year to all East Asian colleagues!
Blessings, goodness and peace to every home!
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:03:05 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
staving Paul Bennett:
>Most people do not conlang based on the axioms of information theory. I
Although, being a physicist who works as a Research Engineer for a the BBC,
I often think it would be interesting to try.
Pete
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:45:21 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Quenya/Sindarin resources?
Kris Kowal skrev:
> I did the footwork to look up Quettaparma Quenyanna. Turned out to be
> an easy google. Has yahoo popups:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2196/wordlist.html
>
>
The real addres to the up-to-date version is always:
<http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm>
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:53:40 +0000
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: nonlinear fiction -- was: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing
(again)
Nokta Kanto wrote:
> It's "Space Under the Window"... you'll have trouble turning up a link if
> you search "beneath".
Drat! It's a few years since I played it last, so my memory was a bit
fuzzy. :-)
K.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:50:55 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Concept maps
Hi all,
This article has some worthwhile reading on "concept maps".
The Theory Underlying Concept Maps and How to Construct Them
Article discusses the characteristics of concept maps, their epistemological
foundations and offers instructions for creating them. By Joseph D. Novak.
http://www.cmap.coginst.uwf.edu/info/
Novak has been studying the psychology of learning and concept formation for
decades. I think he's worth listening to.
I mentioned 'cognitive maps' in reference to Sai's notion of 'non-linear
full-2d writing systems'. This is similar in form and structure. It also
offers free downloadable and sharable software (CMap) which I intend to try
out - just as soon as the registration-&-download process works. I haven't
yet found the software I mentioned, though, which I was using 2 or 3 years
ago quite happily. (O tempora! O disk space!)
Regards,
Yahya
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release Date: 27/1/06
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:43:49 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Happy New Years!
On 1/30/06, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Happy New Year of the Hegira to all our Muslim colleagues!
You're a little early on that one. The Muslim month (and hence year)
doesn't begin with the astronomical New Moon, but with the first
sighting of the new crescent in the evening sky. Hijric year 1427
will thus not begin in most regions until either tonight or tomorrow
night at sunset.
> Happy New Lunar Year to all East Asian colleagues!
Indeed! Welcome to year ä¸-æ, of the (female fiery) Dog, reckoned by
Chinese expats in the West as year 4704 of the Huángdì era. May it
be a good one!
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:13:19 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Happy New Years!
On 1/30/06, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 1/30/06, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Happy New Year of the Hegira to all our Muslim colleagues!
> > Happy New Lunar Year to all East Asian colleagues!
Incidentally, while the first month of this new Chinese Year is also
the first month of the new Hijric Year, and this was also true last
year, such a conjunction is not the norm. The coincidence only
happens for two or three years in a row, separated by gaps of
approximately thirty years; the next occurrence will be in CE 2037.
I don't believe in astrology or numerology or anything of the sort,
but it would be nice to see some good progress in my country's
relations with our Islamic and Chinese neighbors in such a year. Or,
really, any year. I fear it's not likely, but It would be nice.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:46:05 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Concept maps
* Yahya Abdal-Aziz said on 2006-01-30 13:50:55 +0100
> Hi all,
>
> This article has some worthwhile reading on "concept maps".
>
> The Theory Underlying Concept Maps and How to Construct Them
> Article discusses the characteristics of concept maps, their epistemological
> foundations and offers instructions for creating them. By Joseph D. Novak.
>
> http://www.cmap.coginst.uwf.edu/info/
404, remove www for correct link.
t.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:21:04 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Quenya/Sindarin resources?
Benct Philip Jonsson skrev:
> Kris Kowal skrev:
>
>> I did the footwork to look up Quettaparma Quenyanna. Turned out to be
>> an easy google. Has yahoo popups:
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2196/wordlist.html
>>
>>
> The real addres to the up-to-date version is always:
> <http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm>
>
Nice up-to-date PDF versions are also available at:
<http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/helge.htm>
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:47:55 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
On 1/30/06, David G. Durand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jefferson is assuming that the only proper way such a system can work
> is as a space-filling network of regular adjacent convex cells, (a
> convex tesselation of the plane) in which case 6 is the maximum
> connectivity, when connection is defined by sharing an edge. This is
> one way to create such a system of signs, in which case you can have a
> per-cell branching factor of three (triangles), four (squares), or six
> (hexagons). You could increase the options to include 1,2,5 if you
> agree to allow some sides of cells not to be used.
Actually, if you have rows of squares that are offset
from one another, then you could have squares that
share (at least part of) an edge with six other squares.
---------------------
| | | | | |
---------------------
| | | | |
---------------------
| | | | | |
---------------------
If you have triangles in rows
that are offset from one another so the vertices in one
row don't touch the vertices in the next,
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
-----------------
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
-----------------
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Each triangle shares a full edge with two other
triangles in the same row, and half of an
edge with two triangles in the row above.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:14:52 -0500
From: "David G. Durand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
toplogically,staggered triangles are squares.You can see this by
drawing a dot in each figure and connecting it to its neighbors --
mathematically this is called the dual network to the one describing
the edges you started with.
If you do the same with staggered squares you will see an underlying
triangular grid of connections, with 6 lines impinging on each point.
The hexagonal grid, and non-staggered triangular grids are dual to each other.
The square grid is self-dual.
If you allow star shapes, asymmetrical shapes, etc. you can get much
more complex topologies, and even more complex if different cells can
have different shapes.
Jefferson signed off the list, finding it unfriendly and
uninteresting, which makes me regret my sharpness, as I think with
communication in place, the discussion could have continued in an
interesting direction. Like Sai, I'd never considered making a
language out of a uniform grid and connectivity pattern that could be
filled with symbols as needed.
I think he means only some neighbors to be actually connected, but the
decision to have an underlying regular convex grid does limit the
maximum connections as he said.
-- David
On 1/30/06, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 1/30/06, David G. Durand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Jefferson is assuming that the only proper way such a system can work
> > is as a space-filling network of regular adjacent convex cells, (a
> > convex tesselation of the plane) in which case 6 is the maximum
> > connectivity, when connection is defined by sharing an edge. This is
> > one way to create such a system of signs, in which case you can have a
> > per-cell branching factor of three (triangles), four (squares), or six
> > (hexagons). You could increase the options to include 1,2,5 if you
> > agree to allow some sides of cells not to be used.
>
> Actually, if you have rows of squares that are offset
> from one another, then you could have squares that
> share (at least part of) an edge with six other squares.
>
> ---------------------
> | | | | | |
> ---------------------
> | | | | |
> ---------------------
> | | | | | |
> ---------------------
>
> If you have triangles in rows
> that are offset from one another so the vertices in one
> row don't touch the vertices in the next,
>
> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> -----------------
> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> -----------------
> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>
> Each triangle shares a full edge with two other
> triangles in the same row, and half of an
> edge with two triangles in the row above.
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
>
--
-- David
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:51:23 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
David G. Durand wrote at 2006-01-30 11:14:52 (-0500)
> Jefferson signed off the list, finding it unfriendly and
> uninteresting, which makes me regret my sharpness, as I think with
> communication in place, the discussion could have continued in an
> interesting direction. Like Sai, I'd never considered making a
> language out of a uniform grid and connectivity pattern that could
> be filled with symbols as needed.
I don't think you have anything to regret. Your analysis of the
problems of the thread was perceptive, and much less sharp than what
had already been exchanged.
It's certainly a pity that he left. I think his insights could have
been productive, if he'd been willing or able to recognize that his
audience was unfamiliar with his underlying mathematical formalism,
and adapt his mode of expression accordingly. I almost posted to
make this point yesterday - I wish I had, now, perhaps it would have
made a difference.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:05:31 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: To What Extent is Standard Finnish a Conlang?
Hey everyone.
Sorry for the long subject name, but I couldn't think of a shorter way to
phrase it. :P So I've decided to post on something I've wondered about for
a while. As the subject line says, I'm wondering how much of a conlang
Modern Standard Finnish is. From what I understand so far, the language
was cobbled together out of several major dialects around the late 1800s.
What I'm wondering is, how many Standard Finnish words and inflections are
synthetic (and, thus, ultimately unetymological) compromises between the
different regional dialects. Also, does spoken Finnish (where it differs
from the standard language) more accurately reflect the true evolution of
the language?
Thanks in advance. :)
- Rob
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
