There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: OT: Happy New Years!
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Sounds of Quenya?
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Kenraí-A Constructed Language
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. OT: Happy New Years!
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Concept maps
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Kenraí-A Constructed Language
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Good-Bye
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Kenraí-A Constructed Language
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. NATLANG: Chinese for "chestnuts"
From: "Joseph B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Good-Bye
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:01:07 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Tim May wrote:
> David G. Durand wrote at 2006-01-30 11:14:52 (-0500)
>
> > Jefferson signed off the list, finding it unfriendly and
> > uninteresting, which makes me regret my sharpness, as I think with
> > communication in place, the discussion could have continued in an
> > interesting direction. Like Sai, I'd never considered making a
> > language out of a uniform grid and connectivity pattern that could
> > be filled with symbols as needed.
>
>
> I don't think you have anything to regret. Your analysis of the
> problems of the thread was perceptive, and much less sharp than what
> had already been exchanged.
I agree entirely. IMO David has anything to regret; I agree his analysis
of the situation was very perceptive. I certainly helped to see what was
happening, as I must admit I did find some of Jefferson's stuff not easy
to follow.
I thought David had cleared the air and made it possible for Jefferson,
Sai & Paul to advance the thread in a more productive way.
FWIW I have found this list the friendliest of any that I have been on.
Indeed, I have left all other lists - but stay here because it is
friendly. Occasionally, some of us may let off steam or write something
we regret. But we apologize and/or heed Henrik wise words & get on with
things as friends should.
> It's certainly a pity that he left. I think his insights could have
> been productive, if he'd been willing or able to recognize that his
> audience was unfamiliar with his underlying mathematical formalism,
> and adapt his mode of expression accordingly.
Quite so.
> I almost posted to
> make this point yesterday - I wish I had, now, perhaps it would have
> made a difference.
Pehaps it would - but I would not put money on it. I think you have no
more reason to reproach yourself than David has.
Let's move on.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:27:15 +0000
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Happy New Years!
on 1/30/06 7:18 AM, Isaac Penzev at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Happy New Year of the Hegira to all our Muslim colleagues!
> Happy New Lunar Year to all East Asian colleagues!
> Blessings, goodness and peace to every home!
>
> -- Yitzik
Thanx, Yitzik. And to you to. And all of you.
--
Hanuman Zhang
"I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack at
once." - Ashleigh Brilliant
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:41:01 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sounds of Quenya?
> So, I think I'm getting a handle on the sounds of Quenya. Here's
what I
> understand. Please comment with corrections.
> e /e/, /E:/
> o /o/, /o:/
That should be:
e /E/
é /e:/
o /O/
ó /o:/
from what I think I know.
<shamelessplug>
Feel free to compare with my version of Galadriel's Lament
(which David Salo liked well apart from the slightly too
front /a/ and the sometimes too short long vowels):
http://www.cinga.ch/langmaking/spoken/quenya/ailaurie.mp3
</shamelessplug> ;)
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:55:39 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
--- In [email protected], Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
> Sai Emrys wrote:
>>On 1/28/06, Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>[snip]
>>>What do you mean by "arbitrary degree?" If all symbols are the
>>>same size you're more-or-less restricted to six branches from a
>>>single symbol.
>>
>>Only if they're also all square AND not allowed to overlap
>>(or 'fill' a square space, like all 'ideographic' languages I know
>>do - e.g. Japanese / Chinese kanji/hanzi always "take up" one
>>square of space, no matter what they do within it).
>
>Uh, no. It doesn't matter whether they're square or allowed to
>overlap or change in size. Two-dimensional space-filling permits
>only six connections, and if you aren't talking about same-size
>space-filling then your connections aren't arbitrary in the first
>place.
Well, this could stand some elaboration and clarification.
It certainly doesn't matter whether or not they are square.
It probably does matter whether or not they're allowed to overlap.
If all the symbols are the same size, then, on a plane of zero
curvature, each symbol can be contiguous simultaneously with at most
six other symbols; if the curvature is positive (like a sphere), the
limit is five. To get more than six, you'd need negative curvature
(a saddle-shaped surface, for instance.)
However Jeff Wilson's Glyphica Arcana, if I have attributed it to the
right author, demonstrates that each symbol could have more than six
places for other symbols to connect to it, even if they are all the
same size and shape and not allowed to overlap; it's only that, at
most six of those places can be occupied at a time.
For instance, suppose they are all squares, oriented the same way
(that is, with parallel sides; for instance, all sides either
horizontal or vertical). A given square can be contiguous to another
along any one of its four edges. On each edge, they can be
contiguous along the whole edge, or along either half of the edge.
That gives 4*3=12 places to attach another square.*
But only six at a time can actually be occupied; otherwise, two of
the attaching squares will have to overlap each other.
*[If we allow the corners, as well (and we shouldn't, to be fair to
the "six at most" question), that would make 16 places.]
>>If you have different shape of their 'personal space' - e.g.
>>hexagonal (viz. maps used for wargames) - or if they have allowance
>>for some sort of fusional morphology, then I see no reason why it
>>cannot in fact be literally to any arbitrary degree of branching /
>>recursion.
Hexagonal close-packing is precisely the realization of the maximum
connectivity of a regular planar graph.
>You've failed to define what you mean by "arbitrary degree of
>branching." Mathematically, space-filling two-dimensional
>arrangements are limited to six connections.
Only if negative curvature is prohibited -- am I right? A negative-
enough curvature would allow a tiling by heptagons, for example --
wouldn't it? But if you let it get really big -- allowed enough
heptagons -- it would get hard to keep your paper in just one room,
unless you started shrinking the heptagons.
>Even if there's a higher order of symmetry (7-fold or eight-fold)
>there can still be only six or fewer local connections. Greater
>connectivity can be defined, but if it's defined it can't (by
>definition) be arbitrary.
Do you mean by that, that you can throw in a finite, suitably sparse
set of exceptional "tiles" with more than 6 neighbors?
In fact, some bathroom floors are tiled with octagons and "diamonds"
(tilted squares), the octagons having 4 octagonal neighbors
horizontally and vertically, and 4 diamond neighbors diagonally;
every diamond having 4 octagonal neighbors.
This graph is not regular, however. A regular planar graph -- every
vertex the same as every other vertex -- can't have degree greater
than 6.
> Jefferson
> http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
Thanks for writing.
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:18:51 -0500
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
On 1/30/06, tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Do you mean by that, that you can throw in a finite, suitably sparse
> set of exceptional "tiles" with more than 6 neighbors?
> In fact, some bathroom floors are tiled with octagons and "diamonds"
> (tilted squares), the octagons having 4 octagonal neighbors
> horizontally and vertically, and 4 diamond neighbors diagonally;
> every diamond having 4 octagonal neighbors.
>
> This graph is not regular, however.
That's a good point, Tom; it makes me wonder... what's special about
regularity for this sort of project? Do we gain anything from having
all our "tiles" the same size and shape and having (the possibility
of) the same number of neighbors?
After all, not every word is going to allow the same semantic
connections... it doesn't lose us anything if not every sort of word
allows us every possible connection. What's the Agent of "cat"?
Having some tiles with eight neighbors and some with only four doesn't
seem to be a big problem, if for some reason we decide six isn't
enough for all cases.
One more question: the "game", as it's shaping up, seems to involve
adjacency being the marker for... whatever we're putting these "tiles"
together for. Some sort of semantic connection therebetween. Anyway,
how is purposeful adjacency distinguished from accidental adjacency,
since (in the hexagonal grid) a fully "saturated" center tile will
lead to six further adjacencies between its "arguments", not all of
which are going to make sense. And what happens when, say, the north
hex is already in use and you need to place something there?
I figure drawing lines all over the place would solve all of this, but
once we start connecting things with lines we don't really *need*
adjacency any more.
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 00:58:05 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kenraí-A Constructed Language
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Daniel ODowd wrote:
>
> Alectú tonrouxmudate! Semnaami keízaan Dan O'Dowd, pú bataír'aami
dóðlinkanaúx Kenraí, geckle þer'enin pradyval keízabaí. Posaamidtö podonc
Kenraícin aglar'e, alkta gralooðínúlçabaí, igzokanaúx kopr'acedtúlça
çeíðïbaí. Haanecooðínöt tec Kenraí gugym IF, pú arana ooðínöt
conditional tense-bipharópe keízate zacla. Levecoplaart pradyvalapeï
Kenraí; megcí haanecöt jaftelbidrilaxovratulin gugymðax, pú amnak
Aðadtaúx Ðaknete Corníaan Eshizlet Þileï; eshöt How to Tell if Youre a
Sornian, pú ceðyrvaranaami kokareví Búsna Elzavenin nenmet.
>
> Greetings to everybody! I'm Dan O'Dowd, and I'm writing to promote
Kenraí, my first conlang. I've attached below the Kenraí grammar, despite it
not being complete, in order to further understanding for everyone. In
Kenraí, there is no conditional mood or word for if, which is interesting
IMO. I'm quite happy with Kenraí, which already has a 1300+ word vocabulary,
a Sornian culture test, and an ongoing translation of an episode of
Coronation Street.
> Any comments, questions, criticisms or ephemera on this subject would be
gratefully received. If you want the pronunciations of my words then I can
give this as well; but i warn you-I am not yet familiar with IPA conventions
in full, so have my own ways of describing some sounds lol. I have other
constructed languages to divulge, but being as how they are woefully
incomplete, I will wait until they are further along. I will say that I'm
working on an entirely agglutinative (entirely!) language with one vowel
(one!!), a language for lizards without lips, and a language for time
travelling hedgehogs who pride themselves on being modelled on Ancient Greek
civilisation. Thanks for your time.
The Grammar of Kenraí-The Language of Sornia
[big snip]
Greetings, Dan!
Pretty impressive to get most of a grammar in one
message! :-)
I'm also pleased to see a conlang with a generous
catalogue of phonemes, just for a change of pace
from all those elegant, minimalist creations I've
been looking at recently. Should make for an
expressive language, maybe even a poetic one.
Yes, I'd be interested to know a bit more about
your intended pronunciations. You might try using
CXS, perhaps?
Regards,
Yahya
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 00:58:01 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Happy New Years!
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Isaac Penzev wrote:
>
> Happy New Year of the Hegira to all our Muslim colleagues!
> Happy New Lunar Year to all East Asian colleagues!
> Blessings, goodness and peace to every home!
Yitzik,
May your blessings return to you a thousand-fold!
Peace to you and yours.
Yahya
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 00:57:57 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Concept maps
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>
> * Yahya Abdal-Aziz said on 2006-01-30 13:50:55 +0100
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This article has some worthwhile reading on "concept maps".
> >
> > The Theory Underlying Concept Maps and How to Construct Them
> > Article discusses the characteristics of concept maps, their
epistemological
> > foundations and offers instructions for creating them. By Joseph D.
Novak.
> >
> > http://www.cmap.coginst.uwf.edu/info/
>
> 404, remove www for correct link.
Thanks, taliesin, that was careless of me.
Clicking this link does work:
http://cmap.coginst.uwf.edu/info/
I've since successfully downloaded and installed the software,
and used it to produce a test cognitive map of "Partnerships".
The software works flawlessly and quite intuitively, I think.
I'd be interested to hear what others think of it.
Regards,
Yahya
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:28:54 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kenraí-A Constructed Language
On 1/31/06, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Daniel ODowd wrote:
> >
> > Alectú tonrouxmudate! Semnaami keízaan Dan O'Dowd, pú bataír'aami
daxn-ram hoq, hxy-fax-van tq miq-i max-cu poq om.
Hi, Dan, welcome to the group.
> Pretty impressive to get most of a grammar in one
> message! :-)
And kind of overwhelming. But a good kind of
overwhelming.
> I'm also pleased to see a conlang with a generous
> catalogue of phonemes, just for a change of pace
> from all those elegant, minimalist creations I've
> been looking at recently. Should make for an
> expressive language, maybe even a poetic one.
It does look pretty spiffy in its written form.
> Yes, I'd be interested to know a bit more about
> your intended pronunciations. You might try using
> CXS, perhaps?
Specifically,
http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
Another helpful resources for documenting
your grammar in a standard way:
The Leipzig Glossing Rules
http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/files/morpheme.html
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:39:31 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Good-Bye
:-\
CB
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:37:19 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kenraí-A Constructed Language
Hello!
Well, welcome then!
As for your grammar -- posting your complete grammar file in one email is a
bit complex to grok. At least Outlook Express deletes all spacing in my
case. Have you got a web site with your grammar floating around somewhere?
As for the CXS stuff, additionally have a look at
www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/ipachart_cons_pulm_fbmp3.html if you don't know
all the weird names for articulation places (like myself).
Cheers,
Carsten
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:39:31 -0800
From: "Joseph B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: NATLANG: Chinese for "chestnuts"
Some L1 English speakers use the word "chestnut" to refer to a little gem of
wisdom. Does anyone here know what words are used in any of the dialects of
Chinese?
Thanks.
____________________________________
One should respect public opinion in so
far as is necessary to avoid starvation
and to keep out of prison, but anything
beyond this is voluntary submission to
an unnecessary tyranny.
-- Bertrand Russell
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:26:59 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Good-Bye
FWIW, I don't see my behavior as flaming or insulting. Regardless
though, sorry to hear someone chased away by that perception.
- Sai
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