There are 24 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: CHAT half a dozen or so ways of spelling /i/ (was: Graeca sine
flexione (was: Greek plosives))
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. project Gamma: Notes
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: To What Extent is Standard Finnish a Conlang?
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Conlangs DE-Cal '06 - first video now live
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Conlangs DE-Cal '06 - first video now live
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Conlangs DE-Cal '06 - first video now live
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Conlangs DE-Cal '06 - first video now live
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Which language is this? (once again)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Alienable/inalienable possession
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Which language is this? (once again)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Which language is this? (once again)
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Which language is this? (once again)
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Distinct conjunctions for subordinate clauses in different case
relations to main clause
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Meghean webpage update
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Which language is this? (once again)
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Meghean webpage update
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Which language is this? (once again)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:48:35 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT half a dozen or so ways of spelling /i/ (was: Graeca sine
flexione (was: Greek plosives))
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>>R A Brown skrev:
>>
>>
>>>- having several different ways of spelling the same sound, in
>>>particular having half a dozen or so ways of spelling /i/;
>>
>>I was under the impression that at least some of these still
>>indicated /y/ in Byzantine times.
Only OI, Y and the rarer YI.
Confusion of ypsilon & iota is found in Egyptian papyri as early as the
2 & 3rd cent CE. But the Byzantine name ypsilon (upsilon) does indicate
that the /y/ pronunciation was still the norm in the early Byzantine
period, at least among the educated. The name means 'single y', and
contrasts with 'oi diphthongos' /yDifToNgos/ 'digraph y'. But the change
of /y/ --> /i/ seems to have been established before the end of the
first millennium.
>>There are even some
>>modern dialects where /y/ > /u/ rather than /y/ > /i/.
The only one I am aware of is the very aberrant Tsakonian of the
Peloponnese. Some cite it, in fact, as a continuation of the Doric
pronunciation where upsilon remained /u/ & wasn't fronted. It seems far
more likely, however, that Hellenistic /y/ became /ju/ (a 'natural'
change for any anglophile, for example). Evidence for this (a) original
OI also become /u/ in Tsakonian, and (b) there is palatalization before
/u/ in all these cases, e.g. koimoumai /tSumume/.
>
> The Byzantine period spans about a millennium - surely some changes went on
> under this period?
Indeed, there must have been, see above. Certainly, when scholars fled
from Constantinople before its capture by the Turks, the Byzantine
pronunciation they brought with them had the vowel upsilon pronounced /i/.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:03:48 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
Philip Newton wrote:
> On 2/3/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>ek/eks means "out of", not just "from" - and in the modern language its
>>'kse'.
>
>
> And is a bound morpheme, AFAIK -- it only appears as a prefix, not as
> a separate word.
Yes - you're right. But it is derived from ancient eks- :)
On checking I see there are only a few simple prepositions in MG, and
all, as we know, govern the accusative. the list i have is:
se (s') = in, at, to <-- AG _es_ (eis)
apo (ap') = from, of
me (m') = with, by <-- AG meta
gia /ja/ = for, about <-- AG dia
kata = towards, according to
pros = towards
anti = instead of
os = up to, till
xoris = without
dixos = without
(Where no AG form is given, the word is the same in both languages -
though often not pronounced the same)
The modern language seems to rely a lot on combinations of adverb +
preposition to convey more specific meanings.
I think that one of the fundamental things that would need to be decided
in a "Graeca sine flexione" is whether the 'Graeca' is (essentially)
ancient or modern.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:07:41 -0500
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: project Gamma: Notes
Hi all,
This language is giving me a lot of trouble. I have no specific questions,
but comments are welcome.
GOALS
* to have a minimal difference between forms with coreference and forms
without
* to use gender for head-dependent agreement
* to limit actants of a given type to a specific slot as much as possible
SYNTAX NOTES
Word Classes
------------
Lexical classes and syntactical classes are similar but distinct:
syntactical classes apply to complete word forms and are relevent
syntactically; lexical classes apply to word stems and are relevent
morphologically. There are also valence classes.
The lexical classes are: verb, noun (subdivided according to gender),
temporal words, instrument words, other inflected words, and particles.
Lexical adjectives are a subclass of lexical verbs.
The syntactical classes are: verb, noun (subdivided according to gender),
temporal forms, instrument forms, other inflected forms, and particles.
Also significant are whether or not the Auxiliary affix is present and
whether Coreference is marked (or implied).
Forms with coreference are used for nouns, infinitives, and coverbs; forms
without are used for main verbs, complement verbs, and adjunct(???) verbs.
Infinitives and complement verbs are words following auxiliary forms.
The genders are animate, inanimate, and location.
A location-gender phrase can be added to a clause if there's not already a
possible location-gender argument.
A temporal-class argument can always be added.
Agreement
---------
New referent arguments are distinguished from old referent arguments; this
is marked only on the dependent phrases.
Number (singular and plural) is marked both on the head and on dependent
phrases, and is useful in determining which argument slot the phrase
corresponds to.
The gender of a phrase is also used in determining which argument slot it
corresponds to, since each slot, for a particular word stem, allows a
subset of the genders.
The gender of a phrase is that of the lead noun; adjectives must agree with
the lead noun in gender.
The gender of a lead noun may be overridden in order to match a particular
argument slot; in this case the adjectives agree with the override gender,
not the noun's original one.
If two 3rd person arguments are the same in both gender and number and
there's both a new referent phrase and an old referent phrase, the new
referent phrase corresponds to the normally less "animate" argument slot.
The normal "animacy" of the slots is: Personal > Animate > Inanimate; this
means that the Personal slot must not allow a gender of lesser "animacy"
then the Animate slot etcetera.
The "animacy" of the genders is animate > inanimate > location.
Focus and topicality may also be useful in matching phrases to argument
slots.
Appositives
-----------
When a phrase is an apposite of a 1st or 2nd person actant, it must be a
(restrictive) relative clause following the appropriate personal pronoun.
Non-restrictive relative clauses must be (here at least) treated as
separate sentences.
Word Order
----------
The order of phrases within a clause is pragmatic, except where syntax
requires that the head appear first.
Adjectives follow the lead noun, but strictly speaking both lead nouns and
adjectives are syntactical nouns, even if lead nouns are usually lexical
nouns.
Split phrases are occasionally possible.
Inalienable possessors are dependents, not adjectives, and immediately
follow their heads.
A quantifier, if any, immediately precedes the lead noun.
A phrase containing a determiner is called a "determined" phrase. The
determiner immediately precedes the quantifier, if any, or the lead noun.
The partitive construction consists of a quantifier immediately preceding a
determined phrase.
The superlative construction consists of a lexical adjective immediately
preceding a partitive construction.
Miscellaneous
-------------
Alienable possession makes use of various relationship words.
Jeff
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:55:27 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: To What Extent is Standard Finnish a Conlang?
On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:58:55 +0200, John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I can't think of any completely original ones off the top of my head, but
>much standardized vocabulary is definitely based on dialectally rare forms,
>shortenings, and stretched analogy. The same applies to /d ts/, which used
>to be /D T:/ and had dialectally decayed to a variety of forms, /r ht/ for
>instance. The current pronounciation is essentially imported from German,
>after the 17th century spellings <d tz>. (BTW ... I have [4] for /d/, which
>leads to all four of [4] [4r] [r:] [r] being distinct, a little like the
>Dutch [X]<>[XR]<>[R] contrast mentioned recently. Can't think of a minimal
>quartet right now.)
Ah, so /T/ was a phoneme in Old Finnish?
I imagine that [4r] = <dr>? So it must only exist in loanwords.
>There's, however, so much complicated and unexpected derivation in the
>field of "civilization words" that Standard Finnish would definitely count
>as a mildly a posteriori conlang. Some examples:
>
>- "Lisko" (lizard), perceived as a root word in modern Finnish, was set in
>stone by biologists in the 1600s as a shortening of "sisilisko" (common
>lizard), which originates from the animal's old Finno-Ugric name "sisal"
>and the nowadays unproductive "-sko" affix (I think it used to be
>diminutive...) As a folk etymology, the beginning of the word had however
>often been re-analyzed as related to "sisar" (sister), so assigning a
>spesific meaning to the other half, too, was not really that much of a
>stretch.
>
>- "Luokka" (class) was originally used in parts of Ostrobothnia to refer to
>a bent twig used for measuring wood shavings to be burned for lighting.
>This meaning had somehow developed from "luokki", a part of a horse's
>harness.
>
>- "Sähkö" (electricity) is conracted from "sähistä säkenöiden" (to hiss
>sparkingly)
>
>- "Suure" (variable) is "suuri" + "-e" (big + nominalizer)
>
>This trend was in no way limited to the Swedish-speaking fennophiles of the
>1800s; words were coined and derived in similar irregular fashion ever
>since the birth of written Finnish, and public contests/polls to form
>native alternatives for foreign loanwords have been held for at least the
>latest hundred years.
That's very interesting! It's always neat to see how written language
influences the evolution of words.
How about changes in grammar? From what I've read, Old Finnish had the
ending -p(i) for verbs in the 3rd-person singular. What happened to it,
and where did the modern ending (simply lengthening the stem vowel) come
from? Also, I've read that the genitive plural ending -iden is wholly
artificial; some dialects had -jen and others -den, and the coiners of the
standardized language simply combined them together. How true is this?
>>Also, does spoken Finnish (where it differs from the standard language)
>>more accurately reflect the true evolution of the language?
>>
>>Thanks in advance. :)
>>
>>- Rob
>
>What exatly do you mean by "the true evolution"? Standard spoken Finnish
>has naturally been influenced by the written language, while the dialects
>have evolved to a kajillion different directions...
>
>John Vertical
>=========================================================================
I meant that the standardized language may have some grammatical features
that do not have an etymology in any one dialect -- they're somehow
compromises (combinations, conflations, etc.) between forms in two or more
different dialects.
Thanks for your help so far. :)
- Rob
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:44:46 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlangs DE-Cal '06 - first video now live
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8521362586103656261
In general, video.google.com -> 'conlangs 06'.
Comments / feedback / ego-fluffing appreciated.
- Sai
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 03:22:43 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs DE-Cal '06 - first video now live
Hi!
Sai said:
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8521362586103656261
>
> In general, video.google.com -> 'conlangs 06'.
>
> Comments / feedback / ego-fluffing appreciated.
>
> - Sai
And Google said:
> Thanks for your interest in Google Video.
>
> Currently, the playback feature of Google Video isn't available in
> your country.
'COUNTRY'??? What??
> We hope to make this feature available more widely in the future,
> and we really appreciate your patience.
My patience? What do they mean?
Is this a joke?? My definition of cyberspace strictly lacks a notion
of 'country'. (Yes, I know I'm obstinate.) And I think the world
does not need anyone (not even Google) to program a mapping of IP
addresses to countries.
This is just ridiculous. And this is what makes me stop using
services.
(Hopefully it's just broken web design (too much of this exists, too),
but how on earth does a broken web design produce the above text?)
Does anyone know what this means?
**Henrik
--
Relay 13 is running:
http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:18:18 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs DE-Cal '06 - first video now live
On 2/3/06, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And Google said:
> > Thanks for your interest in Google Video.
> >
> > Currently, the playback feature of Google Video isn't available in
> > your country.
>
> 'COUNTRY'??? What??
>
> > We hope to make this feature available more widely in the future,
> > and we really appreciate your patience.
>
> My patience? What do they mean?
That's really weird. While Google Video gives publishers the option to
restrict viewer countries, I of course did not elect to use it. I
would suggest you complain to them. I am all for you and anyone else
anywhere having access.
Another option - perhaps there is a way for you to lie to Google about
where you are, or run it through a US-based proxy?
> Is this a joke?? My definition of cyberspace strictly lacks a notion
> of 'country'. (Yes, I know I'm obstinate.) And I think the world
> does not need anyone (not even Google) to program a mapping of IP
> addresses to countries.
*cough* Have you heard that google did consent to Chinese censorship
as a condition of operating therein?
> This is just ridiculous. And this is what makes me stop using
> services.
>
> (Hopefully it's just broken web design (too much of this exists, too),
> but how on earth does a broken web design produce the above text?)
FWIW though I'll try to reencode the video into divx and upload it to
archive.org, which I'm pretty sure cares not where you come from.
- Sai
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 05:44:54 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs DE-Cal '06 - first video now live
Hi!
Sai writes:
>...
> I would suggest you complain to them. ...
I should probably do so, yes.
>..
> Another option - perhaps there is a way for you to lie to Google about
> where you are, or run it through a US-based proxy?
Nah, that's exactly what I do not want anyone to achieve -- the anyone
needs a proxy to see all content. *stubborn look*
>...
> > Is this a joke?? My definition of cyberspace strictly lacks a notion
> > of 'country'. (Yes, I know I'm obstinate.) And I think the world
> > does not need anyone (not even Google) to program a mapping of IP
> > addresses to countries.
>
> *cough* Have you heard that google did consent to Chinese censorship
> as a condition of operating therein?
Yeah, of course I did -- aweful!
(BTW, I am not tunneling my traffic through a Chinese proxy. :-P)
Politics aside, this is also technically different. The whole
intrastructure in China is designed to be filtering, so there is no
need to check IP addresses for Google China (being inside the Great
Firewall), since the physical cabels are connected in a way that
traffic to Google US is blocked anyway. But Google US obviously
checks my IP to prevent me seeing some content. Perhaps they think
I'm in East Germany? a) Maybe I should enlighten them that it doesn't
matter anymore. b) I am not in East Germany, anyway. :-P
**Henrik
--
Relay 13 is running:
http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:02:17 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Which language is this? (once again)
Hello,
A classmate of mine recently gave me an invitation to a church service
for youths in their congregation, and the flyer says "Discover life"
(which is the title of the service) in German, Dutch, French, Polish
and two Romance languages I cannot identify (presumably Spanish and
Italian) and one that I absolutely don't know:
Apni jindgi trike fe banao.
Does anybody know which language this is?
Thanks,
Carsten
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:15:22 +0000
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
on 2/3/06 8:03 PM, R A Brown at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I think that one of the fundamental things that would need to be decided
> in a "Graeca sine flexione" is whether the 'Graeca' is (essentially)
> ancient or modern.
Oh why not a dogged, mongrel-mutt Greco-mix of both commonly recognizable
roots ancient and modern?
--
Hanuman Zhang, _Gomi no sensei_ [Master of junk]
"The most beautiful order is a heap of sweepings piled up at random."
- Heraclitus, Greece, 5th Century BCE
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 16:08:02 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Alienable/inalienable possession
Hi there,
I recently started a new project, Ukele [1], which is
supposed to have alienable/inalienable posession. I wonder
how would one express to have something or to give
something away that is inalienable? E.g. a heart transplant
or something? Body parts are usually inalienable, after all.
May there be an evidence that it's a concept rather of
philosophy than language? Would there be transplants in a
society that speaks a language with an alienable/
inalienable distinction? I bet I've got a PDF on this
floating around on some backup CDs of mine ... However,
according to Payne it seems to me that it's no problem to
give away something that is inalienable, it's just specially
marked for inalienability. I am confused. Does anyone care
to explain?
Thanks,
Carsten
[1] www.beckerscarsten.de/conlang/ukele
--
Keywords: alienable, inalienable, possession
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:44:15 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Which language is this? (once again)
On 2/4/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> A classmate of mine recently gave me an invitation to a church service
> for youths in their congregation, and the flyer says "Discover life"
> (which is the title of the service) in German, Dutch, French, Polish
> and two Romance languages I cannot identify (presumably Spanish and
> Italian) and one that I absolutely don't know:
>
> Apni jindgi trike fe banao.
>
> Does anybody know which language this is?
Well, I found a copy of the flier online; this is the list:
* Entdecke das Leben
* Ondek het Leven
* Découvrez la vie
* Odulaez zycie
* I Bescubre la vida
* Scopri la vita
* apni jindgi trike fe banao
The penultimate one does look like Italian, but the antepenultimate is
not quite Spanish (which would rather be "Descubre la vida").
Perhaps it's Portuguese or Catalan?
That last one has a definite African feel to it, but beyond that I have no clue.
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:47:40 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Which language is this? (once again)
The antepenultimate one is not Portuguese.
--larry
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 16:49:50 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Which language is this? (once again)
Mark J. Reed wrote at 2006-02-04 10:44:15 (-0500)
> On 2/4/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > A classmate of mine recently gave me an invitation to a church service
> > for youths in their congregation, and the flyer says "Discover life"
> > (which is the title of the service) in German, Dutch, French, Polish
> > and two Romance languages I cannot identify (presumably Spanish and
> > Italian) and one that I absolutely don't know:
> >
> > Apni jindgi trike fe banao.
> >
> > Does anybody know which language this is?
>
> Well, I found a copy of the flier online; this is the list:
>
> * Entdecke das Leben
> * Ondek het Leven
> * Découvrez la vie
> * Odulaez zycie
> * I Bescubre la vida
> * Scopri la vita
> * apni jindgi trike fe banao
>
> The penultimate one does look like Italian, but the antepenultimate is
> not quite Spanish (which would rather be "Descubre la vida").
> Perhaps it's Portuguese or Catalan?
>
> That last one has a definite African feel to it, but beyond that I have no
> clue.
Based on what Google's turning up, I'm pretty sure it's Urdu/Hindi.
"jindgi" is "jindagi" or "zindagi", "life". The romanisation seems to
be a little unorthodox, which makes it hard to look up the rest
online, but if anyone has suitable dictionaries they might like to
have a go.
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 09:03:07 -0800
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
On 2/4/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I recently started a new project, Ukele [1], which is
> supposed to have alienable/inalienable posession. I wonder
> how would one express to have something or to give
> something away that is inalienable? E.g. a heart transplant
> or something? Body parts are usually inalienable, after all.
> May there be an evidence that it's a concept rather of
> philosophy than language? Would there be transplants in a
> society that speaks a language with an alienable/
> inalienable distinction? I bet I've got a PDF on this
> floating around on some backup CDs of mine ... However,
> according to Payne it seems to me that it's no problem to
> give away something that is inalienable, it's just specially
> marked for inalienability. I am confused. Does anyone care
> to explain?
>
> Thanks,
> Carsten
>
> [1] www.beckerscarsten.de/conlang/ukele
Kelen has inalienable possession of body parts. The standard, unmarked
way to say 'heart' is 'samalle', which means 3p-'heart' or
'his/her/someone's heart'. However, it is also possible to inflect
-mall- as an inanimate noun. This would be marked, people would look
at you funny, but in the context of a transplant, or the scientist's
jars of preserved body parts, it would make perfect sense. The
inanimateinflection wold be 'jamalle', which would never be
interpreted as 'his/her/someone's heart', but would mean 'a heart, not
belonging to anyone in particular' or 'a disembodied heart'. Once it's
back in someone's chest, it would be possessed again. As in:
temle lemalle to miþa a maltanen;
The doctor gave me my heart from another. (cool, eh?)
temle samalle;
S/he gave me his/her heart. (and I'm not quite used to the idea yet)
Unlike English, giving someone one's heart is not a declaration of love. :-)
Does that help?
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.terjemar.net
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 17:27:40 +0000
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Distinct conjunctions for subordinate clauses in different case
relations to main clause
Jim Henry wrote:
>Most of the languages I'm familiar with have just one conjunction
>to introduce a subordinate clause, whether that clause is the
>subject or the object of the verb in the main clause. E.g.,
>
>It's interesting that you mention that.
>[= "you mention that"-NOM is interesting]
>
>He didn't know that you were coming.
>[He-NOM know-NEG "you were coming"-ACC]
>
>English also has another conjunction "whether"
>to introduce subordinate clauses with non-indicative
>mood (if that's the right term). Esperanto behaves
>roughly the same way with "ke" and "cxu", except
>that it doesn't require a dummy subject in the main
>clause when the ke/cxu subordinate clause is
>the subject of the main verb.
>
>
Basque has two separate verb suffixes, -(e)la and -(e)n, the first of
which corresponds to English "that" for most purposes, and the second of
which is used in a similar way to "whether" in English.
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:57:32 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 11:49:50 -0500, Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark J. Reed wrote at 2006-02-04 10:44:15 (-0500)
> > On 2/4/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Apni jindgi trike fe banao.
> > >
> > > Does anybody know which language this is?
> >
> > Well, I found a copy of the flier online; this is the list:
> >
> > * Entdecke das Leben
> > * Ondek het Leven
> > * Découvrez la vie
> > * Odulaez zycie
> > * I Bescubre la vida
> > * Scopri la vita
> > * apni jindgi trike fe banao
> >
> > The penultimate one does look like Italian, but the antepenultimate is
> > not quite Spanish (which would rather be "Descubre la vida").
> > Perhaps it's Portuguese or Catalan?
> >
> > That last one has a definite African feel to it, but beyond that I
> have no clue.
>
> Based on what Google's turning up, I'm pretty sure it's Urdu/Hindi.
> "jindgi" is "jindagi" or "zindagi", "life". The romanisation seems to
> be a little unorthodox, which makes it hard to look up the rest
> online, but if anyone has suitable dictionaries they might like to
> have a go.
I know snippets of Sanskrit, Hindi, Bengali and Sinhalese, and it's
definitely an Indic language, and I'd say a north Indic language at a
hunch. It does seem to be a colloquial rather than learned romanization.
The scenario reminds me of a slogan that was on posters all over a
previous employer: "None of us is as strong as all of us". It almost
invariably appeared in about 20 languages, more or less tightly or loosely
translated. For instance "Samen staan we sterk", which I think sounds like
a nationalist slogan rather than a diversity slogan, but there you go.
I suggest a translation challenge for maybe a selection of those
work-oriented slogans. I'd like to invite you to translate the following
into your conlangs:
Discover life. (I don't know whether this was originally work-oriented,
but it seems like the kind of nonsense some managerial type might thing
makes for more productive workers)
None of us is a strong as all of us. (Based on the original, I'd suggest a
more or less culturally suitable thematic translation rather that a tight
word-for-word attempt)
I don't know, I only work here. (If you don't use this at least once a
day, you're not trying hard enough)
Feel free to add your own cliches to the list...
Paul
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 18:48:40 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Meghean webpage update
In an unusually severe fit of procastrination, I've updated the Meghean page on
my much-neglected webpage to agree with my various revisions of the language
over the last couple years. Check it our at:
http://andjo.free.fr/conlang/meghean.html
During the updating work, I discovered some Meghean terminology relating to
phonology and orthography, two subjects that the Mend Chamaint, despite the
quirkiness of the spelling of their language, tend not to distinguish. Much of
it is, of course, summarized and briefly discussed on the page linked above,
but I thought I'd mention some highlights: Stop consonants (oral and nasal) are
considered "hard", while vowels are "soft", and liquids and sibilants are
"intermediate". Best of all, palatals and palatalized sounds are considered
"wet"!
Needless to say, I'll be carrying over most of this into Larethian, where it
makes even less sense. *evil grin*
Andreas
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:57:38 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> On 2/4/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I recently started a new project, Ukele [1], which is
> > supposed to have alienable/inalienable posession. I wonder
> > how would one express to have something or to give
> > something away that is inalienable? E.g. a heart transplant
> > or something? Body parts are usually inalienable, after all.
>
> Kelen has inalienable possession of body parts. The standard, unmarked
> way to say 'heart' is 'samalle', which means 3p-'heart' or
> 'his/her/someone's heart'. However, it is also possible to inflect
> -mall- as an inanimate noun. This would be marked, people would look
> at you funny, but in the context of a transplant, or the scientist's
> jars of preserved body parts, it would make perfect sense. (snip exs.)
Something like that IMO is probably the way to go...
Timorese (aka Atoni, Dawan) has something similar-- inalienable poss. is
marked with the suffixes -k, -m, -n (1,2,3 (sing.) resp.), generic
with -f--thus atèn 'his/her heart/liver', atef 'heart/liver, in general'. I
suppose as in, "We're having liver for dinner", perhaps "The dr. gave me a
new heart", maybe "...shaped like a heart", but the available grammar is
silent on the exact usage.
Fijian of course has its lovely 4-way possession: 1. inalienable 2. edible
3. drinkable 4. generic, alienable.
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Message: 20
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 18:12:56 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Which language is this? (once again)
Roger Mills wrote at 2006-02-04 12:44:08 (-0500)
> Tim May wrote:
> > Mark J. Reed wrote at 2006-02-04 10:44:15 (-0500)
> > > Well, I found a copy of the flier online; this is the list:
> > >
> > > * Entdecke das Leben
> > > * Ondek het Leven
> > > * Découvrez la vie
> > > * Odulaez zycie
> > > * I Bescubre la vida
> > > * Scopri la vita
> > > * apni jindgi trike fe banao
> > >
> > > The penultimate one does look like Italian, but the antepenultimate is
> > > not quite Spanish (which would rather be "Descubre la vida").
> > > Perhaps it's Portuguese or Catalan?
>
> Catalan 'discover' is descobrir, acc'g to an online dictionary. Then
> Romanian occurred to me, but that's _a descoperi_; well, Papiamento? no,
> that's _deskubrí_-- so unless there's a weird *d- > b change in some obscure
> Romance dial., by default it has to be simply Misprinted Spanish (no idea
> what that "I" is, however).
>
> > Based on what Google's turning up, I'm pretty sure it's Urdu/Hindi.
> > "jindgi" is "jindagi" or "zindagi", "life". The romanisation seems to
> > be a little unorthodox, which makes it hard to look up the rest
> > online, but if anyone has suitable dictionaries they might like to
> > have a go.
>
> **Google has Hindi<->English and Urdu<->English sources; you're right on
> "life", but "discover" doesn't match any of the other words in the phrase
> (Urdu is _daryaaft karna_e.g.). Some other Indic language?
It's possible, of course, but I find those words online in Urdu and
Hindi pages (song lyrics, mostly). My guess is that the reason we
don't find a match under "discover" is that it's just not as literal a
translation as the others.
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:20:13 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
Oh boy, translations!!
>
> I suggest a translation challenge for maybe a selection of those
> work-oriented slogans. I'd like to invite you to translate the following
> into your conlangs:
>
> Discover life. (I don't know whether this was originally work-oriented,
> but it seems like the kind of nonsense some managerial type might thing
> makes for more productive workers)
The context seemed to be religious, but...
Kash: tromatka angayi (discover-IMP life [=nomlz.añ- +kayi 'live; alive')
>
> None of us is a strong as all of us. (Based on the original, I'd suggest a
> more or less culturally suitable thematic translation rather that a tight
> word-for-word attempt)
kaç mesamim ta kuwa çarekni alo yunomim
person one-of.us not equal strong-his from(=than/as) all-of.us
>
> I don't know, I only work here.
ta kaya, napo-naponi mepu ritán
not know, only/just(emph.) work here
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Message: 22
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 19:15:47 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Meghean webpage update
Quoting Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> In an unusually severe fit of procastrination, I've updated the Meghean page
> on
> my much-neglected webpage to agree with my various revisions of the language
> over the last couple years. Check it our at:
>
> http://andjo.free.fr/conlang/meghean.html
>
>
> During the updating work, I discovered some Meghean terminology relating to
> phonology and orthography, two subjects that the Mend Chamaint, despite the
> quirkiness of the spelling of their language, tend not to distinguish. Much
> of
> it is, of course, summarized and briefly discussed on the page linked above,
> but I thought I'd mention some highlights: Stop consonants (oral and nasal)
> are
> considered "hard", while vowels are "soft", and liquids and sibilants are
> "intermediate". Best of all, palatals and palatalized sounds are considered
> "wet"!
>
> Needless to say, I'll be carrying over most of this into Larethian, where it
> makes even less sense. *evil grin*
>
> Andreas
>
BTW, while any feedback on content and presentation will be much appreciated,
please do not mind if the feedback is not promptly responded to - I'm going to
Germany tomorrow, and will be staying there for a week, during which time my
'Net access is likely to be erratic.
Andreas
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Message: 23
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:40:25 -0800
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
On 2/4/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oh boy, translations!!
>
> >
> > I suggest a translation challenge for maybe a selection of those
> > work-oriented slogans. I'd like to invite you to translate the following
> > into your conlangs:
> >
> > Discover life. (I don't know whether this was originally work-oriented,
> > but it seems like the kind of nonsense some managerial type might thing
> > makes for more productive workers)
>
> The context seemed to be religious, but...
> Kash: tromatka angayi (discover-IMP life [=nomlz.añ- +kayi 'live; alive')
Kelen: ñi anmara anpoññe ci;
(do/make life found COMMISSIVE)
> > None of us is a strong as all of us. (Based on the original, I'd suggest a
> > more or less culturally suitable thematic translation rather that a tight
> > word-for-word attempt)
>
> kaç mesamim ta kuwa çarekni alo yunomim
> person one-of.us not equal strong-his from(=than/as) all-of.us
Kelen: wa mawae pa ankiþje ñe manaren;
(not-be no-one have strength like every-one-collective)
> > I don't know, I only work here.
> ta kaya, napo-naponi mepu ritán
> not know, only/just(emph.) work here
Kelen: wa sele jatela; sele ankae je na;
(NEG to-me information. to-me work merely)
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.terjemar.net
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Message: 24
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 19:49:42 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Which language is this? (once again)
On 2/4/06, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, I found a copy of the flier online; this is the list:
>
> * Entdecke das Leben
> * Ondek het Leven
> * Découvrez la vie
> * Odulaez zycie
> * I Bescubre la vida
> * Scopri la vita
> * apni jindgi trike fe banao
>
> The penultimate one does look like Italian, but the antepenultimate is
> not quite Spanish (which would rather be "Descubre la vida").
My guess is that it's Spanish, modulo some typos introduced by copying
something in a language the copyist was not familiar with.
(The one before that looks Polish to me, and I wouldn't be surprised
to hear that it has errors, too -- "Odulaez" sounds really off to me.)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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