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There are 22 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Passive voice
From: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2. Re: Pet names
From: "Hanuman Zhang" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3. Re: Word used more than once
From: "João Ricardo de Mendonça" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4. Re: Thagojian 2.0 first text
From: "Paul Bennett" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5. Re: Thagojian 2.0 first text
From: "Paul Bennett" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6. Re: Word used more than once
From: "Joe" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7. Re: Pet names
From: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8. Re: Passive voice
From: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9. Re: Passive voice
From: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10. Re: OVS / StarTrek thread (original header lost)
From: "Raik Lorenz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11. Re: Passive voice
From: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12. Re: OVS / StarTrek thread (original header lost)
From: "João Ricardo de Mendonça" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13. Re: Word used more than once
From: "Nik Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14. Re: Abdul Alhazred: Let's retroconlang the Mad Arab!
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15. Re: Word used more than once
From: "Joe" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16. Re: coincidence
From: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17. Re: Place name constituents
From: "Peter Bleackley" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18. Re: Abdul Alhazred: Let's retroconlang the Mad Arab!
From: "Peter Bleackley" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19. Re: Pet names
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20. Re: Olá amigos conlangers!
From: "daniel prohaska" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21. Re: Star Trek
From: "daniel prohaska" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22. Abdul Alhazred again
From: "Isaac Penzev" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message 1
From: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 10:02am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Passive voice
Larry Sulky wrote:
> Here's another sample where the indirect object is truly indirect,
> taking no governing preposition.
>
> She teaches him the lesson.
>
> Note what happens when we want to passivise one of the two objects:
>
> [A]"The lesson is taught to him" or [A-1]"The lesson is taught him"
Passivization with DO > Subj.
>
> [B] "He is taught the lesson"...
Passivization with IO > Subj.
> or [A-2] "To him is taught the lesson"
This is another variant of [A], not of [B]. Both A-1 and A-2 are possible
because Engl. has two methods of indicating the indirect object in an
_active_ sentence: (They, someone, John) taught him the lesson ~ (They
etc.) taught the lesson to him. Since "to him" is a prep.phrase, it can be
moved around, just as an adverbial phrase (e.g. "at school") can be.
Whereas "him" cannot (normally) be moved around; it must follow the verb.
My impression is that the ability to passivize on the Ind.Obj. is rare in
other languages.
Not, to my knowledge, in Spanish:
--Le dieron un libro 'they gave him a book'
--Le dieron un libro a Juan 'they gave Juan a book'
passivizes to:
--Un libro fue dado a él/Juan (por ellos) 'a book was given to him/Juan (by
them)'
but not:
*Él fue dado un libro, lit. He was given a book, not permitted
*Juan fue dado un libro ...ditto...
and I'm pretty sure also *un libro le fue dado (a él/Juan) (IIRC you don't
use the IO clitic _le_ with the passive).
OTOH, just as in Engl., when the IO is a prep.phrase, it can be moved
around--
"A Juan fue dado un libro" 'to Juan was given a book' (moving the IO phrase,
and subj/verb inversion, just like Engl.)
"A Juan un libro fue dado" 'to Juan a book was given' also possible.
Similarly in the active: A Juan le dieron un libro -- only difference from
Engl. is that Spanish keeps (requires) the dative clitic-- as if we had to
say in Engl. "To John they give him a book"
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Message 2
From: "Hanuman Zhang" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 10:29am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Pet names
on 5/21/06 4:49 AM, Dana Nutter at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> While we are on the subject of names, I was just wondering if anyone has
> used any interesting conlang words to name any of their pets?
Do Stitch, Furby and Pikachu count? I know a cat named Furby, a hamster
named Pikachu... and, hehe, I being my mistress' favourite lil mischievious
pet, I am nicknamed Stitch.
--
Hanuman Zhang
"om hung hanumatay rudratmakai hung phat"
~~~ mantra to Hanuman
|: dha * ga dhi * ge dha * dha * ga dhi * ge dha *
dha * ka ti * ka ta * ta * ga dhi * ge dha * ||
|: dhin * teri kita dhi * na * tun *
na * kat * ta * dhin * na dhin * na ||
|: tin * ta * teri kita tin * ta teri
kita dhin * dha ge na dhin * dha ge na ||
|: dha dhin dhin dha dha dhin dhin
dha na tin tin ta ta dhin dhin dha ||
|: dhin dhin dhage terikita tun
na kat ta dhage terikita dhin dhage ||
|: dha dha din ta kat dhage
din ta tete kata gadi gena ||
|: dha dhin * dha dha tin
* ta tin * dha dha dhin * ||
|: tin * na * teri kita
dhin * na * dha ge na ||
|: dhi na dhi dhi
na ti na dhi dhi na ||
|: tin tin na dhin na dhin na ||
|: dha ge na ti na ka dhi na ||
|: dhi dhi na dha tun na ||
|: kat dhe te dhe te dha
* ge te te te te ta * || ||
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Message 3
From: "João Ricardo de Mendonça" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 10:50am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Word used more than once
On 5/20/06, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Unless I very much misunderstand, they also got most of their singulars from
> the
> accusative. Nom. sg. _filius_ ought've given **_hijos_ in Spanish, not _hijo_,
> which rather comes from acc. _filiu(m)_.
>
> Andreas
>
I stand corrected. Thanks.
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Message 4
From: "Paul Bennett" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 10:59am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Thagojian 2.0 first text
On Sun, 21 May 2006 06:47:31 -0400, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Henrik Theiling skrev:
>> What I liked was W WITH DIAERESIS. Very nicely in parallel to U <=>
>> W.
>
> IIRC it has actually been used by Americanists. Nice nonetheless.
> Kijeb has the sound, though it is blandly transliterated _wy_.
>
> Gotta love the z-cedilla, especially in view of the origin of
> the cedilla (<http://wiki.frath.net/Cedilla> -- yes I wrote that
> page myself...)
I was aware of that making my choice, but it was a happy accident based on
the choice of dotless i from Turkish for the high back unrounded vowel,
which lead to the use of s-cedilla, for which the voiced counterpart must
naturally be z-cedilla, mustn't it?
> Have you considered it may develop into
> ȥ \u0225 LATIN SMALL LETTER Z WITH HOOK? -- although that
> is /s_a/ in 'normalized' OHG. 'Plain' old Ezh may be a worse
> choice, as it has [G] and [dz] connotations in various
> philological branches. I must admit that I'm a sucker
> for s and z generally.
I'm not entirely sure where I'm going to go with later stages of the
language, orthographically. Right now, the "Classical" stage is probably
going to natively be written in an abjad derived from Persian Cuneiform,
thus all those lovely vowels are likely to be zeroed away, or at least
reduced to a few matres lectionis. I need some kind of unambiguous
real-world notation, though, just so I can keep the sound-changes straight.
> As for the lang it doesn't look as Afro-Asiatic as I had
> expected.
There are no Coptic or Hebrew loanwords at this point. They'll start
entering in the 1000AD stage, and probably be joined by a few Greek loans
too, and by the 2000AD stage some Arabic loans are perhaps inevitable.
> In the other PDF (ere_eze.pdf) it looks like
> some weird mix of Turkic and Tocharian, which I like,
> but I'm definitely thinking "Central Asia".
Well, the conhistory still involves starting east of the final Levantine
location, in order to pick up the Classical-period Persian/Sumerian
writing system, and I could willingly go as far beyond Mesopotamia as is
plausible.
> It would be nice to have the etymologies and meanings
> of the words.
Here's the source text:
http://caelestis.info/sauvagenoble/2006/04/slain-kings-son.html
Paul
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Message 5
From: "Paul Bennett" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 11:05am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Thagojian 2.0 first text
On Sun, 21 May 2006 13:58:38 -0400, Paul Bennett
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here's the source text:
>
> http://caelestis.info/sauvagenoble/2006/04/slain-kings-son.html
And it just struck me that I managed to completely avoid applying either
Grassman's or Bartholomae's in either of those examples. Feh. Like I said,
these are "technical preview" releases, and far from "RC" level.
Paul
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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Message 6
From: "Joe" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 11:34am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Word used more than once
Andreas Johansson wrote:
>Quoting João Ricardo de Mendonça <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>
>>On 5/20/06, Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Probably for the same reason Standard English lost the historic
>>>nominative "ye", preserving the object "you". And, for that reason, why
>>>some dialects use "them" instead of "they" or "me" instead of "I" and so
>>>on. The object form seems to be the one to win out when case is lost in
>>>English pronouns.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Like Western Romance languages, which take their plural forms from the
>>Latin accusative. So Latin filias (acc.) gave Spanish hijas and
>>Portuguese filhas (no case).
>>
>>
>
>Unless I very much misunderstand, they also got most of their singulars from
>the
>accusative. Nom. sg. _filius_ ought've given **_hijos_ in Spanish, not _hijo_,
>which rather comes from acc. _filiu(m)_.
>
>
>
Interestingly, in French this is one of the few singular forms that
comes from the nominative: <fils> - [fis], from filius, I think.
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Message 7
From: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 0:34pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Pet names
li [Hanuman Zhang] mi tulis la
> on 5/21/06 4:49 AM, Dana Nutter at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > While we are on the subject of names, I was just wondering
> if anyone has
> > used any interesting conlang words to name any of their pets?
>
> Do Stitch, Furby and Pikachu count? I know a cat named
> Furby, a hamster
> named Pikachu... and, hehe, I being my mistress' favourite
> lil mischievious
> pet, I am nicknamed Stitch.
Well, are those names from natural, or constructed langugages? I've
just been curious as to whether anyone has taken a name from any conlang
and used it to name a pet, or even a child!
------------------------------
dejnx nxtxr / Dana Nutter
LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek
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Message 8
From: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 0:36pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Passive voice
Hi!
Roger Mills writes:
> Larry Sulky wrote:
> > Here's another sample where the indirect object is truly indirect,
> > taking no governing preposition.
> >
> > She teaches him the lesson.
> >
> > Note what happens when we want to passivise one of the two objects:
> >
> > [A]"The lesson is taught to him" or [A-1]"The lesson is taught him"
>
> Passivization with DO > Subj.
> >
> > [B] "He is taught the lesson"...
>
> Passivization with IO > Subj.
Well, *this* works in German: there's an 'indirect passive voice'
(maybe). The above is an interesting sentence, since the normal
'lehren' ('to teach') uses two accusative objects in German:
Ich lehre den Jungen die Lektion.
NOM ACC ACC
But the more colloquial 'beibringen' (also 'to teach') uses dative:
Ich bringe dem Jungen die Lektion bei.
NOM DAT ACC
Using indirect passive, you can promote 'Junge' to a subject:
Der Junge bekommt die Lektion beigebracht
NOM ACC PASS
the boy gets the lesson taught.
'The boy is taught the lesson.'
(Colloquially, you often use 'kriegen' instead of 'bekommen' as
auxiliary for this voice.)
**Henrik
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Message 9
From: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 3:30pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Passive voice
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Roger Mills writes:
>> > > [A]"The lesson is taught to him" or [A-1]"The lesson is taught him"
> >
> > Passivization with DO > Subj.
> > >
> > > [B] "He is taught the lesson"...
> >
> > Passivization with IO > Subj.
>
> Well, *this* works in German: there's an 'indirect passive voice'
> (maybe). The above is an interesting sentence, since the normal
> 'lehren' ('to teach') uses two accusative objects in German:
>
> Ich lehre den Jungen die Lektion.
> NOM ACC ACC
>
> But the more colloquial 'beibringen' (also 'to teach') uses dative:
>
> Ich bringe dem Jungen die Lektion bei.
> NOM DAT ACC
>
> Using indirect passive, you can promote 'Junge' to a subject:
>
> Der Junge bekommt die Lektion beigebracht
> NOM ACC PASS
> the boy gets the lesson taught.
> 'The boy is taught the lesson.'
As you show here, and in previous examples, DO and IO can be promoted to
subject BUT it requires (it seems) a totally different verb or an
applicative form of some sort.
The thing about Engl. of course is that you can passivize DO or IO of any
bi-valent verb, without such recourse-- give, buy, sell, et al. AFAICT, you
can't say in German--
Er wird ein Buch gegeben "he was given a book"
Or, to mangle the ex. above,
"Der Junge wird die Lektion gelehrt
NOM ACC
Or can you????? :-))))
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Message 10
From: "Raik Lorenz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 4:24pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: OVS / StarTrek thread (original header lost)
You all[O] greet[V] I[S]!
AFAIK, there is at least (or: exactly) one natlang around on the planet
using OVS.
Unfortunately, I can't think of it's name, location, size and distribution
(though: small and southern hemisphere).
The popssibility to have a look on it would be checking in the WALS, the
last-year-published World Atlas on Language Structures - take my warrant to
find it there, but I don't have access to a copy (yet!).
Truly[OTHER] it[O] seen[V] have[AUX] I[S]. ;-)
regards,
PS: And of course tlhIngan Hol is an OVS lang ...
> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> Von: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Betreff: OVS langs (was: Star Trek (was RE: Star Trek)
> Datum: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:34:23 +0100
>
> Jean-François Colson wrote:
> [snip]
>
> >>>Is there really a human language somewhere on the planet
> >>>that's OVS? Where? How widely spoken?
>
> [snip]
> > Occasionally Esperanto. For example here is a phrase I remember from
> Kajto's CD Procesio Multkolora:
> > La momenton de retiriÄo (object) devas scii (verb) la ludist (subject)
> > But does that count? Eo has a rather free word order.
>
> No, it does not count. Such word orders are bound to occur in languages
> with free word order. In Vergil's Eclogues we find: 'Omnia vincit amor'
> = 'Love conquers everything'.
>
> If the direct object is fronted, as it may be, in a German or Welsh,
> then we _must_ have OVS word order.
>
> If we extended the description 'OVS language' to include any language
> where the order OVS _may_ occur, then we would almost certainly have a
> few thousand. But this is not the normal, unmarked word order of those
> languages.
>
> When we label a language as a 'OVS language' we mean one in which OVS is
> the normal word order in unmarked sentences with no emphasis; and such
> languages are rare. Esperanto no more qualifies as a OVS language than
> does Latin, German, Welsh etc.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "A mind which thinks at its own expense will always
> interfere with language." J.G. Hamann, 1760
>
--
GMX Produkte empfehlen und ganz einfach Geld verdienen!
Satte Provisionen für GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner
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Message 11
From: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 6:58pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Passive voice
Hi!
Roger Mills writes:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
>...
> > Using indirect passive, you can promote 'Junge' to a subject:
> >
> > Der Junge bekommt die Lektion beigebracht
> > NOM ACC PASS
> > the boy gets the lesson taught.
> > 'The boy is taught the lesson.'
>
> As you show here, and in previous examples, DO and IO can be promoted to
> subject BUT it requires (it seems) a totally different verb or an
> applicative form of some sort.
No, no, in German, this is different from before, i.e., from the
prepositional phrase example. The indirect passive (promoting dative
to nominative), is grammaticalized in German, unlike promoting
obliques to subject (which is also possible in English). That was the
point about writing another post. :-P
I might have confused the matter by using 'beibringen' and still
mentioning 'lehren', the obvious translation of 'to teach'. Sorry
about that... The latter just does not have a dative object: it has
two accusative objects and thus cannot be used as an example.
'Beibringen' has NOM.ACC.DAT structure and is thus an example for the
generic phenomenon of promoting dative to nominative in German by
means of voice.
> The thing about Engl. of course is that you can passivize DO or IO
> of any bi-valent verb, without such recourse-- give, buy, sell, et
> al. AFAICT, you can't say in German--
>
> Er wird ein Buch gegeben "he was given a book"
This is ungrammatical, yes. But this would be the *only* special
ditransitive verb in German, because from *this* special
transformation of the indirect object of 'to give' into a nominative,
namely by using a different verb 'kriegen', all the other verbs that
can do so lend the auxiliary for the indirect passive 'kriegen'. The
above in indirect passive would be:
Er kriegt ein Buch. (or '...bekommt...' in more formal German)
He gets a book.
Trivial, yes. But this 'kriegen' is generalised to all other
ditransitives in German.
So yes, this special case needs a different verb, but that's an
exception from which the regular case derives.
The other example 'beibringen' is the regular case: ditransitive, and
dative case is promoted to nominative by using 'kriegen' (or
'bekommen') as auxiliary. Another case:
Ich lese ihm eine Geschichte vor.
i.NOM read him.DAT a story.ACC
I read a story to him.
(Note that this instance of 'to read' is 'vorlesen' and not 'lesen' in
German, thus the final 'vor').
Regular indirect passive voice:
Er kriegt eine Geschichte vorgelesen.
he.NOM gets a story.ACC read.perfect_participle.
'?He is read a story.'
(Is this grammatical in English?)
'To him, a story is read.'
Another one:
Ich schenke dem Mann das Buch.
I give_as_a_present the man.DAT the book.ACC.
'I give the book to the man as a present.'
Indirect passive voice:
Der Mann kriegt das Buch geschenkt.
The man.NOM gets the book.ACC given_as_a_present
'The man is given the book as a present.'
> Or, to mangle the ex. above,
> "Der Junge wird die Lektion gelehrt
> NOM ACC
>
> Or can you????? :-))))
Yes. Only both 'lehren' and 'geben' are inappropriate verbs for
examples (for different reasons). But 'beibringen', 'vorlesen',
'schenken' and other ditransitives are regular in structure. And the
auxiliary for forming indirect passive voice is 'kriegen' (or
'bekommen') instread of 'werden' for direct passive voice.
Ok, that's all for indirect objects in dative case where indirect
passive voice can be used. For adjuncts, it does not work. Something
like the following does not work in German:
We talked about him.
-> He was talked about.
(Note 'him' vs. 'he', a contrast not possible to install by regular
means in German here.)
This would require something different. The normal way would be to
use normal passive voice, but keeping the adjunct (and thus the case),
but in initial position:
Über ihn wurde gesprochen.
about him was talked.
Another way would be to use a different verb (e.g. an applicative).
I hope I clarified more than to confuse this time...
**Henrik
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Message 12
From: "João Ricardo de Mendonça" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 9:46pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: OVS / StarTrek thread (original header lost)
On 5/21/06, Raik Lorenz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You all[O] greet[V] I[S]!
>
>
> AFAIK, there is at least (or: exactly) one natlang around on the planet
> using OVS.
>
> Unfortunately, I can't think of it's name, location, size and distribution
> (though: small and southern hemisphere).
>
Aren't you thinking of Hixkaryana? It's a Carib language spoken in
Brazil and is often cited as an example (the only example, actually)
of an OVS language. I haven't seen examples of it, though, it is just
mentioned. Someone mentioned it here on the list as well on this past
week.
Wikipedia has some info and links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hixkaryana
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Message 13
From: "Nik Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 10:18pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Word used more than once
Nik Taylor wrote:
> Indeed, though proper names often preserved the nominative, e.g., Carlos
> < Carolus, not *Carlo < Carolum. To the best of my knowledge, common
> nouns were always from accusative (although in the feminine nouns, the
> nominative and accusative merged early on)
At least in Spanish. As Joe pointed out, French has a few words, like
_fils_, derived from the nominative.
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Message 14
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 11:11pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Abdul Alhazred: Let's retroconlang the Mad Arab!
Hi Andreas, et al,
Another possible etymology for "Abdul Alhazred"!
Last night, I was wondering ... The Had.ramaut, like The Yemen, The Sinai, The
Rub-ul-Qali (The Empty Quarter) ... isn't that a geographic region? Might
that be Had.ara Maut - meaning, eg, the Fear of Death? or is it quadri- or
quinqui-literal borrowing? ...
I googled 'hadramaut' and found the answers at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadramawt which includes the following info:
---------
"Hadhramaut, Hadhramout or Hadramawt (Arabic: ØضرÙ
Ùت [Ḥaá¸ramawt]) is
a historical region of the south Arabian Peninsula along the Gulf of Aden in
the Arabian Sea, extending eastwards from Yemen (proper) to the Dhofar region
of Oman. The name of the region is currently retained in the smaller Hadhramaut
Governorate of the Republic of Yemen. The people of Hadhramaut are called
Hadhramis [sic; more probably al-had.ramiyya] ...
... The Hadhramis live in densely-built towns centered on traditional watering
stations along the wadis. Hadhramis harvest crops of wheat, millet, tend date
palm and coconut groves, and grow some coffee. On the plateau Bedouins tend
sheep and goats. Society is still highly tribal, with the old Seyyid
aristocracy descended from Muhammad, traditionally educated and strict in their
Islamic observance, highly respected in religious and secular affairs.
Hadhramaut emigration on a large scale since the early 19th century has
established large Hadhrami minorities in South and South East Asia, namely
Hyderabad, Java, Sumatra, Malacca and Singapore.
Though Bible dictionaries derive 'Hadhramaut' from Hazarmaveth, a son of Joktan
in the Book of Genesis 10:26-28, the name 'Hadhramaut' actually derives from
Greek hydreumata or enclosed (and often fortified) 'watering stations' at
wadis. A hydreuma is a manned and fortified watering hole or way station along
a caravan route. Juris Zarins, rediscoverer of the city of Ubar, described that
site in a 'Nova' interview:
'The site that we uncovered at Shisur was a kind of fortress/administration
center set up to protect the water supply from raiding Bedouin tribes.
Surrounding the site, as far as six miles away, were smaller villages, which
served as small-scale encampments for the caravans. An interesting parallel to
this are the fortified water holes in the Eastern Desert of Egypt from Roman
times. There, they were called hydreumata.' "
---------
So, here is a collection of muhjrin (emigrés) that Lovecraft's protagonists may
have come agcross in the Yemen, or in Hyderabad. In India, wealthy descendants
may have acquired an English education (if this was necessary to the plot - I
forget, not having read Lovecraft for several decades).
I also forgot to point out earlier that, while etymologically incorrect, many
Muslims do indeed go by the incomplete cognomen "Abdul". Relatives of mine
have two sons, both Abdul X, of whom the first is generally called either Abdul
or Abi. Thus it is conceivable that a person be known by a personal name as
well as several attributes. Frequently these attributes include a place of
origin, eg al-farsi, the Persian, or ar-rumi, the Roman. So why not
al-had.rami or al-had.rim? From which it is but a short step to imagine sound
changes arriving at a person named "Abdul Alhazred".
Regards,
Yahya
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Message 15
From: "Joe" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 0:06am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Word used more than once
João Ricardo de Mendonça wrote:
> On 5/20/06, Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Probably for the same reason Standard English lost the historic
>> nominative "ye", preserving the object "you". And, for that reason, why
>> some dialects use "them" instead of "they" or "me" instead of "I" and so
>> on. The object form seems to be the one to win out when case is lost in
>> English pronouns.
>>
>
> Like Western Romance languages, which take their plural forms from the
> Latin accusative. So Latin filias (acc.) gave Spanish hijas and
> Portuguese filhas (no case).
>
>
I take it you're using Western Romance to exclude Italian there? The
Italian plural being 'figli'.
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Message 16
From: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 0:28am(PDT)
Subject: Re: coincidence
Hallo!
On Fri, 19 May 2006 17:44:43 +1000, Yahya Abdal-Aziz wrote:
> Question: In coining vocabulary for your conlangs, do you
> A) avoid using word-forms you know from other languages;
> B) deliberately reuse such word-forms; or
> C) let the chips fall where they may?
Somewhere between B) and C) with Old Albic. Many words are based on Germanic
words with unknown etymology because I fancy Albic to be related to the
unknown language that was spoken in northern central Europe before the
speakers of Germanic arrived on the scene. (It is estimated that about
a quarter of the Germanic core vocabulary comes from such a source.)
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
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Message 17
From: "Peter Bleackley" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 1:17am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Place name constituents
staving Paul Bennet:
>REPLY-TO WARNING! As ever, my ISP webmail doesn't behave nicely.
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >One of the spiffiest bits of place-name conlangery is
> >the name of a ford in _The Phoenix Guards_ by
> >Steven Brust. I can't cite it because my copy is loaned
> >out; basically the aboriginals called it simply "ford"
> >in their language, and each people who came along
> >and grabbed the land after them took the previous name,
> >perhaps mangled it to fit their own language's
> >phonology, and added their own language's word
> >for "ford". I think the final name was something like
> >"Bengloalafurd", but I suspect I'm misspelling it because
> >this only gets on Ghit.
>
>This actually happened in England, with the hill now known as Torbenfalls
>Hill.
>
>Having said that, Google provides zero hits for that name or any plausible
>respellings, so it may be a myth. There is at least a Tor Hill in Lancashire.
I've always read it as Torpenhowe Hill. Apparently pronounced "Tarpna".
Pete
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Message 18
From: "Peter Bleackley" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 1:18am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Abdul Alhazred: Let's retroconlang the Mad Arab!
staving Andreas Johansson:
>I had something a bit different in mind, however. A recurring name in
>Lovecraft
>is that of Abdul Alhazred, the "Mad Arab" who wrote the infamous
>_Necronomicon_. The name, deriving from Lovecraft's youthful infatuation with
>the Arabian Nights, isn't a "real" Arabic name, but a made-up Arabic-sounding
>one. Now, my idea was, could someone familiar with Arabic suggest a plausible
>early-medieval Arabic name that might without too great distortion have been
>mutated into "Abdul Alhazred" in European tradition?
One of the few things I know about Arabic is that "Abdul" comes from the
construct state of abd "servant", and is usually followed by one of the 99
Divine Names of Islamic tradition - eg Abdullah parses as abd-al-illah,
"Servant of God". We therefore need some plausible meaning for hzrd (hmm
that's four consonants rather than three - could one be a prefix or
suffix?). Preferably something along the lines of "unholy" or "diabolical",
to fit in with Lovecraftian themes.
Pete
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Message 19
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 1:35am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Pet names
Hi Dana,
On Sun, 21 May 2006, Dana Nutter wrote:
>
> While we are on the subject of names, I was just wondering if anyone has
> used any interesting conlang words to name any of their pets?
Does a "conword" count? Although, tempted, I never created any more vocab at
the time ... But early in 1973, we were visited at home in Petaling Jaya,
Malaysia, by a very hungry, beautiful, big black dog. As he seemed to have no
home, we eventually adopted him. At the time, Malaysia, Indonesia and the
Filipinas had just adopted a joint spelling reform, "Mafilindo". Two
by-products of this were that the English- and Dutch-derived spellings of C and
S were replaced as follows:
En./My. "ch" = Du./Id. "tj" ---> uniformly "c"
En./My. "sh" = Du./Id. "sj" ---> uniformly "sy"
(Presumably the previous Filipino spelling had followed a Spanish model?)
Anyway, I was busy at the time getting used to the new spelling, and was rather
fascinated by some of the cross-linguistic puns that it created. When naming
the dog, I simply created another (weak) pun of my own, and called him "Cusy!"
(which we'd write in English, perhaps, as "Choosh!") This is not, AFAIK, a
proper word in Malay, but I used it to represent the speed with which he
rushed by, especially for food (think "Whoosh!") An intermediate En.-My.
pronunciation, tho, might make him "Choosy" - which he was most definitely not
;-).
He was a lovely dog, fiercely loyal to and protective of us, tho he did wander.
In the three months we had him, he put on plenty of weight and grew very
robust. One night he came home for tea with a length of pink plastic twine
tied around his neck - someone had tried to keep him. We kept him locked in
for a week. But in the end we had to let him get some exercise, so let him out
again. He never came back; I'm pretty sure he fed some family quite well ...
:-( Still miss him at times.
Regards,
Yahya
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Message 20
From: "daniel prohaska" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 2:19am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Olá amigos conlangers!
My name is Jorge, and Im Portuguese.
This is my first post here even though Ive registered myself a couple of
weeks ago (havent had much spare time).
So, here goes a small intro of myself:
Im bearded, right-handed, straight and not sure if Ive some Lithuanian
blood in my veins (my great-great-
-great-grandfather was found, in 1889, on
the doorstep of a monastery in Portugal while he was a baby, and he was
definitely of northern European origin, probably a son of a refugee, but
thats all we know
)
Im married and have a 6 yr. old boy.
My L1 is Portuguese, L2 is English, and I also know Spanish, Italian, French
and Russian. Im now studying Mandarin Chinese.
My first contact with conlangs was when I was 14, back in 1989. Me and a
classmate came up with a conscript, so we could write each other without the
fear of getting caught saying improper stuff. We first used Portuguese but
evolved to something which was our first conlangs, using Portuguese phonetic
slang with invented words to simplify the writing. Unfortunately all of it
is lost.
Presently, Im working on four conlangs (all a priori conlangs), one of them
is logographic.
Cordially,
Hi Jorge,
Welcome to the group. I started conlanging when I was about 16 when, bored
out of my senses in French class, constructed a very Latinate Balkan-Romance
language. The interest for Balkan-Romance stayed with me in as much as Im
still planning to do a re-conlang of Vegliot/Dalmatian eventually when I
find the time.
My second lang was an Anglo-Saxon type Germanic language which originated as
a blend between my two mothertongues German and English, but became more and
more historically correct in the sense that it developed a distinct, yet
definitely Invaeonic character.
Ive been working on Cornish for the past few years which has been very
rewarding and am about to publish the first book (at least to my knowledge)
about Revived Cornish in German (due the end of this year or beginning of
the next).
Another long-term re-conlang project Ive got is Shetland-Norn.
Ive just created a database of syllables for a new conlang, my first
completely independent lang that hasnt got a relative in historical
languages. Im planning to construct a whole language family comparable to
Indo-European Ill probably still be at it when Im 85.
Dan
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Message 21
From: "daniel prohaska" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 2:32am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Star Trek
Mark a screfas:
"But Duane's Rihannsu novels predate TNG. SInce then, we've seen a very
different Romulan language and culture - just as the Klingons we got
starting in Star Trek III bore no resemblance to those of John M. Ford's
Final Reflection. The version of Remus in Insurrection, for instance, is
completely irreconcilable with the Rihannsu version. So I don't think you
can draw any inferences from the books about the nature of the Romulan
language.
That said, I love the concept. Going back to the protolanguage and
artificially evolving it in ways that are deliberately what they consider to
be exactly the opposite of how the real modern language developed? That is
a totally awesome way to develop a conlang. :) "
Mark,
Maybe we can view the books as a kind of alternate history. They are not
tied into the whole ST Universe the way the Star Wars novels are. I still
love the whole Rihannsu concept and it has been taken up by a few other ST
writers as well, and since it's much easier to cast of "Nemesis" (cause it
was a really grotty flick) I'll continue to see the Rihannsu story as legit
- at least in my books.
There are whole paragraphs in Duane's "The Romulan Way" (with glossary) and
"My Enemy, My Ally" in her conlanged Rihannsu language. And there used to be
a web site with some grammar as well. I don't know if it's still running.
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------
On 5/18/06, daniel prohaska <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What else?
> Romulans and Vulcans, at least.
"Which *does* make sense because Romulans are Vulcan emigrants. They are the
same species."
I don't know how familiar any of you are with the expanded ST-Universe,
meaning the novels. Diane Duane wrote "The Romulan Way" among others in
which she describes the emigration of the Vulcans that were to become the
Romulans, or "Rihannsu" in their language.
According to Duane, Romulans speak what is essentially a conlang. They
constructed a language based upon Old High Vulcan and "aged" the language in
a different direction from Surak's contemporary colloquial language. It is
quite conceivable that the language will have developed further after
emigration. The development of Vulcan would no doubt have been faster
because of native development dynamics and the longer time of development.
The Romulan ships were generation ships without warp capability, so they
were travelling at relativistic speeds and while the voyage itself took
about 150 years ca. 800 years had passed on Vulcan.
Dan
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message 22
From: "Isaac Penzev" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 2:55am(PDT)
Subject: Abdul Alhazred again
Sorry to open a new thread - I'd already deleted the original messages, when
an idea came to my mind.
I thought I heard a word sounding similar to Alhazred. I looked into a
Turkish dictionary. Gotcha! _hazretleri_ means 'His Highness' or similar
noble title (don't know them in English). Then I looked into a Persian
dictionary, and found a word _hazrat_ (of Arabic origin) meaning the same.
The root _hozur_ (spelt ØضÙر - HuD`ûr) means 'presence (of an eminent
person, like king, G-d)'. Can it be the name we are looking for? To confuse
_d_ and unaspirated _t_ is easy, isn't it?
-- Yitzik
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